Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun...

[handy]

One thing I didn't bring up in my previous posts was the text Jesus was referring to, which should be done...any time there is a dispute about what a particular passage means, and that passage includes a reference to another portion of Scripture, it behooves us to look at that portion as well.

Jesus was referring to Isaiah 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

Looking at the referenced text, I see no reason to believe other than what I've already concluded, that Jesus is referring to His upcoming death.

I just don't find it plausable to think that Jesus is trying to help out the Jews trump up charges against Him. Even if it were plausable...it still isn't a very good interpretation of the text given that no other text bears out the idea. We should always use Scripture to interpret Scripture and in this case the Scriptures do not support the idea of Jesus helping trump up charges agaisnt Him. The Scriptures do, however, support the idea that Jesus is referring to His own imminent death and the fact that the disciples would henceforth be on their own...needing money, supplies and yes, even swords.

If Jesus told the disciples to take some weapons with them...even if only two...then this takes the idea of using guns for self-defense out of the realm of what is forbidden by Scripture to what is left up to an individual Christians choice. Certainly no one need to use any kind of weapon for self-defense. But, unless the Bible forbids us from doing so, then there is freedom in the matter. Nowhere does the Bible forbid us from using common sense methods of self defense, including using weapons. This particular text supports the opposite idea.

Regarding "It is enough" in response to the two swords...

First of all, it's impossible to say exactly what Jesus meant, because the Bible doesn't explain it. However, far more plausible to me than Jesus helping trump up charges against Him is the idea that the swords were to be used for self-defense. In a war, all fighters must be armed. In a group of people needed defense, not everyone need be armed...one or two who are equipped is enough to fight off an attacker. Jesus wasn't telling them to equip themselves out as a fighting machine...but, He was going to be gone, they were going to be on their own and they needed to have common sense provisions at hand, money, supplies, and even a sword or two.

 

[Drew]

One thing I didn't bring up in my previous posts was the text Jesus was referring to, which should be done...any time there is a dispute about what a particular passage means, and that passage includes a reference to another portion of Scripture, it behooves us to look at that portion as well.

Jesus was referring to Isaiah 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

Looking at the referenced text, I see no reason to believe other than what I've already concluded, that Jesus is referring to His upcoming death.

No one is denying that Jesus is concerned with, and in fact, setting up the conditions for His own death.

But, again, the text says what it says!!!

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-25902>37</SUP> It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.â€

You seem insistent on trying to find a way to have this bold / underlined material expunged from the text.

Yes, we all understand that there is the related issue of Jesus' death, and Jesus needing to go to the cross.

But this only supports my argument. As part of the broader plan of going to the cross to pay the price of sin, Jesus needs to get arrested. And that is precisely what is going on when Jesus connects the sword acquisition to the prophecy about being numbered with the transgressors.

Yes, we all agree that Jesus needs to go to the cross.

But the text says what it says!!! The sword acquisition is done specifically to fulfill a prophecy that Jesus be numbered among transgressors. And this is precisely the kind of thing that will help get Jesus arrested - a bunch of men armed with swords, who are otherwise known be causing trouble, would, yes, be seen as, yes: a band of transgressors.

I cannot see how you are doing anything other than deny the clear import of the original text where Jesus connects the sword to being numbered with transgressors, notwithstanding all these other considerations.

In any event, all the other considerations work perfectly well with the thesis that Jesus means exactly what he says here:

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-25902>37</SUP> It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment

I will not tire of repeating: the text says what it says. Jesus' instructions here fulfill a prophecy about being seen as a transgressor (among others). And this works perfectly well with all the other stuff you bring up.

 

[theLords]

Must be good to be you, Drew.

I'm not going to argue the subject. You've put forth what you believe...I've put forth why I disagree and choose to look to the whole of Scriptures...

Everyone else can make up their own minds...

:waving

Thanks for giving a detailed account of the passage, Dora. I've always wondered why Jesus was telling them to buy a sword (esp. when unbelievers attack Him with this passage). It makes a lot of sense. Very deep. Thank you.

 

[handy]

Thanks, 'Lord's....It just makes more sense to me that He is telling them they will need to start providing for themselves as He will very soon be gone. It's easy to overlook, but it shouldn't be overlooked that the whole text mentions three things...not just swords...

They would need money, a knapsack or traveler's bag to carry provisions in, and a sword.

This is in stark contrast when Jesus sent them out before (which He referenced) and they were to take none of those things:

And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform healing. And He said to them, “Take nothing for your journey, neither a staff, nor a bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not even have two tunics apiece." Luke 9:3

If this was just to trump up charges agaisnt Himself...which since Jesus knew that Judas had already gone to the Jews, there was no need to...then why the reference to the earlier sending when Jesus sent them out on their own...and why the reference to the money and sack of provisions?

Drew, everyone who reads the thread will know that I'm not ignoring what Jesus said, and no matter how many times you say I am isn't going to change that. I know that, as someone who truly wants to believe that the Bible in no way condones the owning of weapons, you truly must find some kind of alternative explanation as to why Jesus would tell them to go out and buy a sword. And...for you...you've found one.

I'm not buying your explanation, though. It just isn't plausible. If other's want to...that's up to them.

 

[theLords]

Thanks, 'Lord's....It just makes more sense to me that He is telling them they will need to start providing for themselves as He will very soon be gone. It's easy to overlook, but it shouldn't be overlooked that the whole text mentions three things...not just swords...

They would need money, a knapsack or traveler's bag to carry provisions in, and a sword.

This is in stark contrast when Jesus sent them out before (which He referenced) and they were to take none of those things:

And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform healing. And He said to them, “Take nothing for your journey, neither a staff, nor a bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not even have two tunics apiece." Luke 9:3

If this was just to trump up charges agaisnt Himself...which since Jesus knew that Judas had already gone to the Jews, there was no need to...then why the reference to the earlier sending when Jesus sent them out on their own...and why the reference to the money and sack of provisions?

Drew, everyone who reads the thread will know that I'm not ignoring what Jesus said, and no matter how many times you say I am isn't going to change that. I know that, as someone who truly wants to believe that the Bible in no way condones the owning of weapons, you truly must find some kind of alternative explanation as to why Jesus would tell them to go out and buy a sword. And...for you...you've found one.

I'm not buying your explanation, though. It just isn't plausible. If other's want to...that's up to them.

Well, for me, what truly resonated with your dissecting of the text is that it really displays the heart of God. That's why it sunk in deep for me. (I've been asking the Lord about this passage.) The Lord telling the disciples that things are going to change within a hidden ("Avoid the yeast of the pharisees") kinda way is so totally in character for Him. This manner of interaction and illumination with the disciples is very Christlike (word pun, hee). Then on the heart side, it is so like Him to care more about the pain of His disciples to go out of His way to warn them and those words upon reflection being a source of comfort for them. (Oh, He tried to tell us!)

So, when I say I was touched, I mean it. What a beautiful heart our Lord has. Aw, now I feel all sappy.

And if anyone is stating that you are "ignoring what Jesus said" then that person would be guilty of bearing false witness and slandering your character. I don't want to get involved in the debate, but I will throw this verse out their for you, Dora: Matthew 11:19 "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."

Well, I gotta run, Chile is playing Argentina and the family is a'gatherin'

Blessings!

 

[reba]

WOW what a cool couple of sisters!

 

[Pard]

Drew, everyone who reads the thread will know that I'm not ignoring what Jesus said, and no matter how many times you say I am isn't going to change that. I know that, as someone who truly wants to believe that the Bible in no way condones the owning of weapons, you truly must find some kind of alternative explanation as to why Jesus would tell them to go out and buy a sword. And...for you...you've found one.

He's good at that... Like ignoring my post on the first page with a few passages to support my argument. I know he is ignoring me but he didn't care about this when he brought up another topic on page 3. He likes to pick and choose.

And I agree I like your dissection of that little bit. I had the feeling that was what it meant but now I have the 'ammo' to back it up!

 

[Drew]

Thanks for giving a detailed account of the passage, Dora. I've always wondered why Jesus was telling them to buy a sword (esp. when unbelievers attack Him with this passage). It makes a lot of sense. Very deep. Thank you.

Fair enough - you agree with Dora.

Now let's see whether you agree with Jesus.

Please answer this question. What, precisely, does Jesus say right after he says this:

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-25902>37</SUP> .........

 

[handy]

Actually watching this thread for a couple of hours something has really stood out with relation to peoples attitudes towards passive or preemptive self defense.

You gotta ask yourself are you protected buy a gun OR the lord? which is your protector?



A couple of days ago I was getting some Chinese food for dinner after work.

When I was walking back along the shops I walked through a group of teenagers hanging out at the opening of a store. They looked like the sort of kids you would want to beat up at school. Actually you would.. They were all smoking cigarettes trying to look cool. As I walked by one of them was mimicking my walking behind my back to the amusement of the others.

As an adult I know teenagers are not capable of sensible thought sometimes thier minds are changing I didnt worry about it.

I thought to myself maybe cigarettes are useful after all, they help cull stupid people from the gene pool of humanity.

Back to weapons If I had one on me I might have done something silly in a situation like that before I had a chance to think it out.

many times I have wanted to carry weapons like knives in case of idiots around in the city late at night etc but I make myself never take it and trust God.

Sorry Chris...I think there is a gulf of a divide between walking through a group of snarky teenagers, and facing down what Reba had to face in her home...or going through the Groene family did up in Northren Idaho.

All I can say is, if you would actually be tempted to pull a gun on a smart aleck teen...then it's best that you don't ever carry one.

Round here...the guns are mainly for the cougars, bears and wolves. But, should a person intent upon evil threaten me or my loved ones, I most likely would treat them the same as any other predator.

The key word though is "predator"...snarky teenagers don't count. Otherwise my daughter would be long gone! ;)

 

[theLords]

Oh, I agree with my Jesus. We're tight. Who I don't agree with is you, and your not Jesus so it's okay that I not agree with your interpretation. ;)

Fair enough - you agree with Dora.

Now let's see whether you agree with Jesus.

Please answer this question. What, precisely, does Jesus say right after he says this:

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-25902>37</SUP> .........

 

[Pard]

Actually watching this thread for a couple of hours something has really stood out with relation to peoples attitudes towards passive or preemptive self defense.

You gotta ask yourself are you protected buy a gun OR the lord? which is your protector?



A couple of days ago I was getting some Chinese food for dinner after work.

When I was walking back along the shops I walked through a group of teenagers hanging out at the opening of a store. They looked like the sort of kids you would want to beat up at school. Actually you would.. They were all smoking cigarettes trying to look cool. As I walked by one of them was mimicking my walking behind my back to the amusement of the others.

As an adult I know teenagers are not capable of sensible thought sometimes thier minds are changing I didnt worry about it.

I thought to myself maybe cigarettes are useful after all, they help cull stupid people from the gene pool of humanity.

Back to weapons If I had one on me I might have done something silly in a situation like that before I had a chance to think it out.

many times I have wanted to carry weapons like knives in case of idiots around in the city late at night etc but I make myself never take it and trust God.

First I don't understand this concept everyone against guns seems to share. They have it in their minds that its either guns or God. That's wrong. Somehow you guys think that if you have a gun you are casting God aside. I can only assume that you have never even shot a gun. It isn't easy by any means (as I have said time and time and time again int he last ten pages...). With a shotgun it is a bit easier but lets stick to the regular stereotypical handgun that people have for self defense (since of all the guns this is most used and seen for self defense because most people don't go pistol hunting).

Let's pretend this pistol is also a 9mm (which is a pretty standard self-defense handgun. Large but not massive). Here is the mock-up...

You are sleeping. It is like 4 am (which is the point at which most people are most deep into their sleep). You are awoken by the sound of shattering glass (remember that glass shattering isn't actually that loud. TV shows make it sound loud but it is below the noise level that wakes the average person up). You're bedroom is upstairs and features no means of leaving it except for the one main door (this is the common bedroom layout. Upstairs and one entrance). Your door is open (I don't know why I hate having my bedroom door open but my parents always keep theirs open...). While you are still trying to gather your thoughts about the noise you heard you see a figure coming up the stairs and turn towards you. You react by grabbing your 9mm pistol (let's say a Glock). The figure also has a gun (like the stereotypical bad guy it is a stupid shiny gun and so you can see it reflecting in his hand). You sit up and the guy reacts by raising the hand with the gun in it. You respond with a double tap (two to the chest).

Let's look at the various difficulties in taking this shot...

Dark.
Just woke up.
Laying on your back.
Laying on a bed.
Adrenaline.
9mm pistol @ 6 yards.

It takes a very skilled person to be able to make this shot reliably. You also have to factor in that even when it is a life and death scenario the average person's mind will intentionally miss (Real Army study. Something like 90% of soldiers shot high their first time shooting at an enemy).

As I have been saying... that bullet is only going to hit your mark if God wants it to hit your mark.

Point is that it is a fallacy to assume that it is God or guns. It can and often is both. Perhaps it is because of where I live (a wicked liberal state where less than 1 in 10 people own a gun and only 3 in 10 attend church) but everyone I've met at my gun club is a Christian. I say that just to show that guns can and do go with God (sure maybe they are not really Christian but who are you and who am I to make that call?).

And if you really entertain the thoughts of pulling a weapon on those teens... please do us all a favor and rid yourself of all potential weapons on your household

 

[Pard]

Oh, I agree with my Jesus. We're tight. Who I don't agree with is you, and your not Jesus so it's okay that I not agree with your interpretation. ;)

one two punch!

 

[handy]

Pard,

Your senario reminded me of a all too real event that took place when I was a kid.

We lived away out in the woods back then as well. Only these woods were in California, not all that far from Yosemite National Park.

During the time I'm speaking of there had been a number of break-ins, robberies, and one murder in the area I lived in. Naturally, every one was stressed. I remember hating it that I wasn't free to roam the hills, had to stay close to the house...couldn't even go to my favorite "fort" in the manzanita bushes.

Anyway, one night my dad awoke to hear the unmistakable sounds of someone being in the house. He had a loaded shotgun handy and he reached over and slipped off the safety. He could hear someone walking through the kitchen to his bedroom door. Dad aimed.

The door opened and it was my Grandpa. Grandma and Grandpa decided to drive up to see us and got in a lot later than they expected.

No, Dad didn't blow Grandpa away. He waited until he was more than sure that he was going to need to use deadly force in whatever the situation was.

Now, Dad was a veteran, so he was well trained with weapons. And, had he not been, there could have been a tragedy. Even Grandpa agreed, he had acted stupidly. He just didn't want to wake up us kids...he was unaware of the trouble in the area.

But, as you say, folks seem to think there is an "either/or" situation here. Either one trusts in God or one grabs a gun. I agree with you, there is no "either/or"...one can both trust in God and in that trust, have the means to defend oneself if necessary. I trust in God implicitly to care for me and mine...

However, when we're sick, we go to the doctors. When we have financial stresses, we work to get in some extra income. When we live out in the middle of nowhere, and it takes at least 45 minutes to an hour to have a 911 response team show up...we keep a gun handy.

 

[jasoncran]

Wow.......thats all I can say is Wow.

We are all responsible for our own actions...we are not allowed to blame our sin on anyone or on anything. If I was given the launch button to an ICBM missle would you say I am less at fault for killing millions of people then if I did it with a sword over many many years??? No I wouldn't be...because killing is killing. We will all stand before Jesus and answer for our actions and I promise you that saying oh but Jesus I had a gun or I had a bomb will not help your defense. No one makes me drive my car into a crowd of people, but that sure would be a good way to kill people wouldn't it? Should we take away cars from people too?

And I am arguing from historical facts.....it doesn't matter if they are specific they are facts.

Speaking of Japan....did you know that one of the reasons they were unsure of invading the mainland in the US during WWII is because they knew most civilians were armed. HMMMM good thing we didn't take everyones guns away then huh?


Actual evidence huh......how about when a murder is a felon and when they get out of prison they can't buy a gun so they kill someone with a knife. If you don't think that happens then you are dreaming. Heck most serial killers don't even use guns they use knives or rope. They like to see the terror in the eyes of their victims.....that is evil!!!! Not the rope, knife or gun they used....They are evil by their actions!!!

no the man yamato saw that the americans were in a depression and were helping other and werent weak minded that we had resolve. guns may have played with that but not fully as he saw our might in factories.

but yes in general americans arent easy targets.

drew does the sarin gas and terrorism that japan has ring an issue?

its funny drew the uk asked for for advise on how to deal with the violent riots recently they didnt go to japan since we have cut back, how many riots like that have we had? very few. yet we are the violent country.

france being the left of us and hard on gun riots has college kids overunning things whenever they riot. not so in america. and yet surely these gun culutured americans that supposidly have guns everwhere can easily overrun our police.

i am a national guardsman and know in general what the responses are too these things and how much in general the amount of lethal carry cops will be and also backup from us. the citizens if so incline could overrun us if they soo choose by simple lethal force but they dont.

now then drew in your push to legislate morality and bring the physical kingdom to earth where in the bible does man have right to be an athiest? or a buddhist. so you should push for a state religion in canada.

america learn that lesson the hard way. we can delinate what i s moral but we can make men christian by morals. it didnt work for isreal and where in the world and why would it work now?

 

[jasoncran]

Jason how about if you are on the battlefield and shots were not fired at you, but you were ordered to fire at the enemy first. What would you do ?

discharge with extreme predujice. they will not wait for me. unfortunately our glorious presidents bush and obama have change the roe you and i were taught. if they have a gun and arent a friendly they die.

 

[reba]

<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-25898">35</sup>And He said to them, When I sent you out with no purse or [provision] bag or sandals, did you lack anything? They answered, Nothing! <sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-25899">36</sup>Then He said to them, But now let him who has a purse take it, and also [his provision] bag; and let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy a sword.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-25900">37</sup>For I tell you that this Scripture must yet be fulfilled in Me: And He was counted and classed among the wicked (the outlaws, the criminals); for what is written about Me has its fulfillment [has reached its end and is finally settled].
<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-25901">38</sup>And they said, Look, Lord! Here are two swords. And He said to them, It is enough.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-25902">39</sup>And He came out and went, as was His habit, to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples also followed Him.

AMP

Here i see Jesus man/God trying to tell his close friends things are changing... Me the man Jesus will not be here, i will be crucified and you guys cant see beyond your noses.. they didn't get it...They say hey we got 2 swords i can hear Him sigh "yea sure thats it" as He walks out the door...

 

[Lewis]

A Right To Bear Arms
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/beararms.htm


Sources on the Second Amendment and Rights to Keep and Bear Arms in State Constitutions

http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/2amteach/sources.htm

 

[jasoncran]

lewis those that arent americans wont the get the tradition we have and why. its origins were to keep the "benevolent europeans" who wanted to well make us a colony again at bay then it evolved to what we have today.


i say keep it and leave it alone and for the record this poster wont be buying a gun for a long time. yet if pard wants one why should i deny him the right to shoot for fun or hunt?

 

[reba]

This thread is about home protection not packin a 6 gun on ones hip...

I came upon a ring of boys the two guys in the middle were bloody shirts off etc... I am walking that way, sheesh what do i do ... So i am praying Lord what do i do i cant just walk by, this ol gal and those boys, scary as Chris said as big as him. A kid on the edge noticed me, eye contact, I am praying surprised by the words i spoke. "Hey is this a fair fight?" I was so blessed by the results. The boxers ending up telling why they were fighting and SURPRISE it was a girl...A guy went for his car he was going to take both guys home LOL KIDS i suggested they get a second car.....

The point i am trying to make is, although i have no problem with owning a gun or defending mine with a gun i also know there are other ways to control scary situations. From my story you can see Prayer was first on my list....

 

[jasoncran]

why do the pacifists here assume that?

interpersonal skills are encourage in law enforcement if i can talk you to drop the weapon and lay on the ground by all means. that isnt likely but lets say its guy who isnt really a trouble maker in my prison in combat. he is mad because he cant see his wife today. and acts up.

should i then just oc spray him or talk to him? the later is prefered as often if they see you are willing to treat them nice they will comply even if they are in the wrong.

i earned a lot of favors in country by treating the local nations with respect.

on this note. while i was leaving the forge, i saw a man who kind looked odd. i went to my passenger side of my truck and unlocked it first so that my grandson could get in first after i moved by bags and auto part.

i observed the man as he walked by , he said hi. he wasnt a bad guy but was a muslim man with a jacket over his top part of his man jammies and didnt want us to gawk as i kinda did.

body languages and reading them do wonders.