Bible Study "Pastor" Office or Gift?

[cyberjosh]

Hi Nathan,

Josh, I hope you do not feel like I am picking on you. Its just that you bring a great, and needed, balance to this discussion.

Thank you. I hope you understand my comments in the same spirit.

There are just a few things I wanted to comment on. First off it is interesting that we deem people as 'head' pastor. I understand what you are saying, but the truth is that we indeed feel this way anyways. They are called 'senior' pastors in other places. But there is again nothing that lines up biblically about that. Yes, there are pastors, but the NT never distinguishes a hierarchal role of them.

I understand what you are saying, but I do not necessarily see a problem with heirarchy (as if it were completely contrary to the spirit of Christ and His will in the church). Different denominations have different heirarchy, and some smaller groups may not even have a particular leader at all. However I see some freedom in he body of Christ to chose some heirarchy or appointed leaders for the congregation. Now I'm not however saying one pastor is 'over' another, as if has command and authority over another pastor with the same gift, they are all equally accountable to each other. What I meant is he is our main pastor who preaches most often and was the founder of this particular Church. His dad also attends who is a veteran in the ministry, and everyone just calls him "Pastor Dad", and you could even say that he must honor his own father as a spiritual mentor for himself as well.

Secondly, what you describe seems to be the 'move' in the "churches" today. The pastor getting frustrated with the 'pew sitters' and they are starting to speak out about it. I think this is where this discussion has been born. But with all due respect, their the ones who are responsible for the people sitting.

Wait a minute though, it is only the congregation's fault if they choose (which should be without even needing to be 'told' or 'reminded' - the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit in us do that for us - and it's only the lack of that for which preachers must speak up about it in the first place) to not go out and become involved in exercising their gifts and volunteering for ministry opportunities, etc. We cannot shift blame completely here. I can understand how the visitor or non-member just becoming acquainted with the Church may have (or may lull themselves into) the "come to Church and leave" mentality (now however if a particular church actively encourages this behavior for some reason then they are at fault as well - but only as "co-encouragers" in that regard, and not the sole source of blame, though that would be a terrible situation) when it just seems too easy to be non-commital, or windows shop for churches. But any person who has been with a church for any significant period of time has the opportunity to invest and plug in, and they should do so without anyone having to tell them (although asking about opportunities that the church has obviously should be a possibility in the dialogue - which does not however preclude you just doing good works on your own around your neighborhood and to those you have daily contact with outside of church). Members especially should not fall into any such mentality, because it it supposed to be a nonselfish commitment to ministry.

The role of the 'pastor', the pastor specifically and biblically, is to lead by example.

Precisely, which is why pastors (shepherds) do much more than preach (one would hope - but perhaps you are refering to some 'cultural trend' where you perceive some neglect? My point was that not all neglect the fullness of their duties). They counsel people, pray with them, go to visit people when in need. Please refer again to what I said in the third paragraph of this post if that is your concern. I tried to address that.

But what we see is the pastor leading by instruction.

This is the preaching role, which is admitedly not the same as pastoring (shepherding) a people. We have established that pastorship and preaching are technically distinct, but can often go together. The issue is to have done one without neglecting to do the other, similar to Jesus' point in (Matthew 23:23). If you have both gifts then exercise them both.

To lead by example would require participation from individuals in the congregation to be around (you can't lead by example if there is no one there to watch or follow) or come to the pastor before or after sermons, or during the week, and to allow themselves to be shepherded by the gift. If you run away after the final "amen" of the sermon how is that supposed to work?

Again, my heart goes out to them. They have had so many extra roles placed on them that the one they need to focus on is drowned out.

I think perhaps my point about about Mathew 23:23 may be helpful here.

What I would think would be absolutely crazy, is for a pastor to come in on a Sunday morning and lead by example.

What do you have in mind though? It's not like the pastor is a movie for us to watch. As I said this would require quality time with the pastor at other times than sermons. So what exactly did you have in mind here, so that I can undestand what you are trying to say? Perhaps you mean like, as an example, what I said about our Church calling all to corporately participate in praying and fasting for three weeks, which the pastor did indeed lead by example by doing the same? That involved no preaching whatsoever, only prayer and dedicating one's self to fasting.

I hope you took this in the spirit it was given!

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh you bring up an excellent topic. This thread is kind of evolving , but its good I think.

You made the distinction "house of God" in reference to the building we gather at. But that is COMPLETELY un-biblical as far as the NT Church is concerned. But it is one of those things we normally just do not even recognize.

Not at all. I think you misunderstand the spirit of that Scripture, and/or perhaps also what I meant. The verse in Isaiah reads:

"Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples" (Isaiah 56:7)

This is refering to Jerusalem (the holy mountain Zion) and the temple precint (altars, sacrifices, etc.) and clearly was refering in this case to the physical Temple, where people would go to pray.

Jesus in Luke 19:46 applied this and said "It is written,'And my house shall be a house of prayer' but you have made it a robbers den!". This was when Jesus cleansed the temple because of the sellers there. He was saying that it was to be a place of prayer and not for greedy profiteering. In John 2 we also see this about the cleansing: "Then His disciples remembered that it was written, 'Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up'"(John 2:17). This hearkens back to the Psalmist who desired to be in God's house and was zealous for it (Psalm 69:9; cf. Psalm 119:139). David also often expresses his intense desire to be in the house of God (cf. Psalm 27:4). At that time it was the physical temple where they went, but now that it is destroyed does this mean that the body is no longer to gather and pray?

Let us not mistake this only to be associated with a physical bulding or only the Jewish Temple. Prayer is not dependant upon that. When the temple was destroyed that is when Synagogues arose all throughout Israel so that Jewish communities could gather in absence of the Temple (before Herod rebuilt it). The same idea applies to praying where ever the saints are gathered, building or no building. I was applying the spirit of the verse. I do not put confidence in brick and mortar.

A church, or the gathering ekklesia, will not continue to stand without prayer. Not now, not ever. That was my point.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Jake]

Hi Nathan,
I understand what you are saying, but I do not necessarily see a problem with heirarchy (as if it were completely contrary to the spirit of Christ and His will in the church). Different denominations have different heirarchy, and some smaller groups may not even have a particular leader at all. However I see some freedom in he body of Christ to chose some heirarchy or appointed leaders for the congregation. Now I'm not however saying one pastor is 'over' another, as if has command and authority over another pastor with the same gift, they are all equally accountable to each other. What I meant is he is our main pastor who preaches most often and was the founder of this particular Church. His dad also attends who is a veteran in the ministry, and everyone just calls him "Pastor Dad", and you could even say that he must honor his own father as a spiritual mentor for himself as well.

Brother, if you don't see a problem with the hierarchy system, then that is a problem in itself. That is something the Lord tells us He hates in Revelation. It seems you have been taught in the denomination way.
No one "finds a church" and we do not "attend a church", we are the church.

 

[cyberjosh]

Brother, if you don't see a problem with the hierarchy system, then that is a problem in itself. That is something the Lord tells us He hates in Revelation. It seems you have been taught in the denomination way.
No one "finds a church" and we do not "attend a church", we are the church.

Brother, please understand the spirit of my posts. Nonetheless I already pointed out, as to elders particularly, how Paul said, "set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you" (Titus 1:5) and encouraged reading all the Pastoral epistles, 1&2 Timothy and Titus for more about how the church is to conduct itself. Order in the house of God is the key. But I do think any deeper dive into this is worthy of its own thread. There is one unified spiritual Church, the body of Christ, but many gatherings where believers in a community gather together "in every city". Nonetheless, even in Revelation it was not considered technically incorrect to refer to the "seven churches".

Also, I understand where you are coming from, but please do not be eager to label me so simply and readily. I do not put hours of my time and thoughtful posts on this board out of indoctrinated, narrow mindedness. I have only shown an openness toward discussing this. And it still is open. Please continue to dialogue with me if you care to discuss this further.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Brother, if you don't see a problem with the hierarchy system, then that is a problem in itself. That is something the Lord tells us He hates in Revelation. It seems you have been taught in the denomination way.
No one "finds a church" and we do not "attend a church", we are the church.

And if you ever want to hear me to come at this from the other side, then ask me sometime what I think of the heirarchy of the Catholic Church (not here please though - PM is more appropriate because of forum rules).

P.S. In all things I seek balance. Ecclesiastes 7:18.

-Josh

 

[Elijah674]

You are right. But my heart goes out to those who are still in the 'organized church'. I used to be there. I am not anymore. I still go to their gatherings because I am led to do so. Some here may not agree with that, but I am accountable to only one, Christ.

There are still those in the 'organized church' who are yet to come out of the 'system'. If God chooses to use me to reach them than I should be using my faith. We definitely CANNOT change the 'system'. We can see this clearly when we actually take a moment to step back and look at the history of the 'church' as we know it.

ALL denominations have stemmed from the "Catholic" church. There is no denying that. What that does is give new light to this passage;

Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.

What the discussion here is beginning to do is show us the 'roots' of why things are done the way they are done. We WILL not change the system. There is no doubt about that. But just hunkering up in some cave is not the answer either, UNLESS you are being called to do that.

The calling is to come out of the way of thinking that surrounds the 'institutional church', its not nearly as much physically as it is spiritually. Because what we are seeing is yet another 'offspring' from the 'mother' which is the modern day house church. They might not physically resemble the 'institutional church' but they are still spiritually linked with them.

******
--Elijah here:

OK: One needs to make known what the required motive for seperation is? It cannot be because one is just passed over for whatever the reason might be?
In house church's seperation to be right with God, must have the right [[LOVING MOTIVE]] for doing so!

It has got to be as 'another Rock' posted up, that of Rev. 18:4, & with one Loving Christ First & then His 'creation' second, and that cannot be while they are in support of, & yoked to, and PARTAKING of known false doctrines which have not changed in well over any 120 years as Gen. 6:3 DOCUMENTS and with the STRIVING OF THE HOLY GHOST to do so!

Right or wrong??
'i' do not know anything about Rock, but he surely is being 'LED' by Inspiration!

OK: Now here is another thought! One quotes the Rev. 17:1-5 verse. It use to be posted some before the later 'increased knowledge' found the plural of the whores daughters there. You tell me if any Faithful Born Again Christian can call these church's CHRISTIAN??? Who is the liar if that is done, Christ or satan? We just cannot have it both ways & be 'IN CHRIST'! Rom. 8:1

And FORUM: The question was not or is not... Are there still Christians in them? As Rock had posted up, Rev. 18:4 must find Christ True Children LEAVING THE YOKED BONDAGE! And in John 10:16 we see another call by Christ Himself to leave! (bottom/line's, Matt. 25's MIDNIGHT CRY!)

Now ask yourself, [IF CHRIST WAS IN THESE FALSE 'other sheep' FOLDS] why would they need to leave? And again... seeing that He is not, who is???? Rev. 3:9
**********

 

[Jake]

Brother, please understand the spirit of my posts. Nonetheless I already pointed out, as to elders particularly, how Paul said, "set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you" (Titus 1:5) and encouraged reading all the Pastoral epistles, 1&2 Timothy and Titus for more about how the church is to conduct itself. Order in the house of God is the key. But I do think any deeper dive into this is worthy of its own thread. There is one unified spiritual Church, the body of Christ, but many gatherings where believers in a community gather together "in every city". Nonetheless, even in Revelation it was not considered technically incorrect to refer to the "seven churches".

Also, I understand where you are coming from, but please do not be eager to label me so simply and readily. I do not put hours of my time and thoughtful posts on this board out of indoctrinated, narrow mindedness. I have only shown an openness toward discussing this. And it still is open. Please continue to dialogue with me if you care to discuss this further.

God Bless,

~Josh

I have read enough of your posts to know you are highly influenced by denominational traditions, it's hard to keep an open mind when those are floating around.

 

[Nathan]

Not at all. I think you misunderstand the spirit of that Scripture, and/or perhaps also what I meant. The verse in Isaiah reads:

"Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples" (Isaiah 56:7)

This is refering to Jerusalem (the holy mountain Zion) and the temple precint (altars, sacrifices, etc.) and clearly was refering in this case to the physical Temple, where people would go to pray.

Jesus in Luke 19:46 applied this and said "It is written,'And my house shall be a house of prayer' but you have made it a robbers den!". This was when Jesus cleansed the temple because of the sellers there. He was saying that it was to be a place of prayer and not for greedy profiteering. In John 2 we also see this about the cleansing: "Then His disciples remembered that it was written, 'Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up'"(John 2:17). This hearkens back to the Psalmist who desired to be in God's house and was zealous for it (Psalm 69:9; cf. Psalm 119:139). David also often expresses his intense desire to be in the house of God (cf. Psalm 27:4). At that time it was the physical temple where they went, but now that it is destroyed does this mean that the body is no longer to gather and pray?

Let us not mistake this only to be associated with a physical bulding or only the Jewish Temple. Prayer is not dependant upon that. When the temple was destroyed that is when Synagogues arose all throughout Israel so that Jewish communities could gather in absence of the Temple (before Herod rebuilt it). The same idea applies to praying where ever the saints are gathered, building or no building. I was applying the spirit of the verse. I do not put confidence in brick and mortar.

A church, or the gathering ekklesia, will not continue to stand without prayer. Not now, not ever. That was my point.

God Bless,

~Josh

Gotcha Josh. That is my fault for not fully trying to understand what you were saying. Point understood now.

 

[Nathan]

******
--Elijah here:

OK: One needs to make known what the required motive for seperation is? It cannot be because one is just passed over for whatever the reason might be?
In house church's seperation to be right with God, must have the right [[LOVING MOTIVE]] for doing so!

It has got to be as 'another Rock' posted up, that of Rev. 18:4, & with one Loving Christ First & then His 'creation' second, and that cannot be while they are in support of, & yoked to, and PARTAKING of known false doctrines which have not changed in well over any 120 years as Gen. 6:3 DOCUMENTS and with the STRIVING OF THE HOLY GHOST to do so!

Right or wrong??
'i' do not know anything about Rock, but he surely is being 'LED' by Inspiration!

OK: Now here is another thought! One quotes the Rev. 17:1-5 verse. It use to be posted some before the later 'increased knowledge' found the plural of the whores daughters there. You tell me if any Faithful Born Again Christian can call these church's CHRISTIAN??? Who is the liar if that is done, Christ or satan? We just cannot have it both ways & be 'IN CHRIST'! Rom. 8:1

And FORUM: The question was not or is not... Are there still Christians in them? As Rock had posted up, Rev. 18:4 must find Christ True Children LEAVING THE YOKED BONDAGE! And in John 10:16 we see another call by Christ Himself to leave! (bottom/line's, Matt. 25's MIDNIGHT CRY!)

Now ask yourself, [IF CHRIST WAS IN THESE FALSE 'other sheep' FOLDS] why would they need to leave? And again... seeing that He is not, who is???? Rev. 3:9
**********

Agreed! Christ first then the creation. I do not support, and I am not yoked to the institutional 'church', as it is called. Most certainly I am NOT in support of the doctrines they teach. Talk to any individual where I do go and gather with other believers. They will be first to let you know I speak up for the truth, they just think I am the one in error.

I know there is coming a day that I will not be able to go there anymore. My heart is sad because of it. I will at that point have to pray all the more that their eyes will be opened. But until I am called away, I will still go.

A 'church' cannot be "Christian". A Christian is a individual, the church is made up of Christians. This is precisely why I try to stay away from the term 'church' unless it is a must. There are a lot of 'churches' that are not Churches. The same is there are a lot of 'christians' that are not Christian.

The call is to leave the yoking of ones beliefs, not physical position. Sometimes it does require the leaving of the physical position, but that is not all the time. America as a WHOLE is a system that is bent on things opposed to Christ. Should we move to Mexico?

No, because Mexico is the same way. And each and every physical country has shoved their finger in the face of God Almighty and rejected Him. That is precisely why THIS IS NOT OUR HOME. I am a pilgrim and a so-journeyer in this world.

I have this faith, however, and I realize that some might not. Those who find that they cannot help but be drawn into the false doctrine taught by those who raise themselves above others and Christ Himself should leave the gatherings they attend. God has given me the gift of Faith. It is a supernatural giving. I MUST use it where ever He calls me to. I do not expect everyone else to understand this either.

The main thing must be kept the main thing. And that is that Christ is the head of His body. If any man looks to anyone other than Christ for Lordship, he needs to examine himself to see whether he is in the faith. This is why this discussion was so heavy on my heart. I wanted to be able to put into words that which I see in the institutional 'church' today. And this discussion has helped. I am sure that the Lord will use it as a catalyst to spark future discussions with those I have come to know that live, physically, in my area.

 

[Nathan]

The problem we have with religion is SYSTEMIC! The system and organization is not broken and does not have a problem, it IS the problem! It's dogma, hierarchies, and its respective denominational practices have done so much to separate believers in so many ways. We have a divide between denonimations and an even bigger divide between the laity and the clergy which spits in the face of Jesus' prayer in John 17 that we all be one.
All that being said, I believe it would me a mistake for us to try to reform the organizd church. We instead need to reform our own thinking to make sure that it conforms to what the word of God tells us. It all then starts with us as christians being more involved in each other's lives and establishing real, meaningful, personal relationships with each other. The formalities of organized religion have served to separate us for centuries, we need to say, "NO MORE" and start unifying with love as our common thread mirroring the saints we read about to fellowshiped with each other from house to house. They ate together, they laughed together, cried together, prayed together, suffered together, and encourage one another to endure and keep the faith together! Jesus' true "church" is NOT an organizatio but rather a people, and it is people that need to be the focus. Those of us who are older and mature in the faith need to take an active role as pastors (shephards) if we fit the descriptions given in Timothy and Titus recognizing that our excellent example, encouragement, and overseeing the "health" of the souls (lives) of our beloved brethren is needed. This can start with us being more hospitable as it is written in Titus and 1 Timothy. We need to let people into our lives so that we can share in theirs so that we will be able to see when they are struggling and what they are struggling with so that we can help them avoid and deal with the wiles of the devil they face.

This really speaks to me. It really gives words to my thoughts also. This is probably the biggest obstacle I have to overcome personally. That is to let someone else into my life. It is the only thing that I have never let completely go. I am a very introverted person. But I have come to realize that when this is all said and done, when this world is over and done with, it is going to be a close intimate relationship with each other and God forever.

The kingdom is not going to be us having our own little island somewhere hanging with only those who we 'want' to be with. There is a reason why we are called 'children' of God. It will be a big family.

There is nothing to fear here. God should be feared, but that is a respectable fear. But there is nothing else that we should fear. We should be bold. I think that it is probably one reason why the "pastor" has the position he does. It comes from that of a priest. And the priest, although set up by God specifically, was usually the one role no one actually fought over. It is because people want to have someone between them and God.

Its fear. But not a respectable fear, its a lazy fear. The fear that they will have less control. Its weird when I think about it. The very idea of a "pastor" seems to be that someone has 'control' over another. But in reality people understand that he really does not have 'control', but they do give him control.

Ah well. I think just about everything that can be said has been said on the subject.

 

[cyberjosh]

I have read enough of your posts to know you are highly influenced by denominational traditions, it's hard to keep an open mind when those are floating around.

Then go on your way then if you must, since you have me all figured out. Sorry you feel that way.

 

[Jake]

So I do agree with you, but you do not have to stay in the "church system".

QUOTE]

But the problem is how do you leave the church system but still maintain fellowship AND function as a Body as God designed us to function, meaning having personal, face to face contact and relationships with one another while ministering to one another with our gifts?

Maybe you could pray to meet other like minded people in your community, that is what I am doing.

As far as ministering, there are tons of opportunities in every community. Right now I am involved with this huge project within my community. I saw this ad up at the store, that they needed people, and so I signed up and yesterday they put me in a lead position of about 100 people (and I have never led anyone in my entire life haha). We are not all like minded on every piece of doctrine, but it IS the Body of Christ working side-by-side, using our spiritual gifts.

 

[cyberjosh]

Gotcha Josh. That is my fault for not fully trying to understand what you were saying. Point understood now.

Thanks Nathan. And seriously, you know me well enough to know that I'm not trying to turn this into a tug-of-war. And I thank you for your sincere thoughts all throughout this thread as well. They make me think, and I think you made me draw a sharper distinction between pastoring and preaching as well. Thanks for that.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Jake]

Then go on your way then if you must, since you have me all figured out. Sorry you feel that way.

I apologize Josh, I was harsh and I hope you will forgive me.

God bless -

Jake

 

[Elijah674]

Here is an old old post along the lines of a pastors 'duties'. It was posted on this site & perhaps the other friend is still around here using another 'handle' for his name as I am? Ether way, ask yourself if you would want this assignment as a laymen with your many gifts??

P/N/B here: Typo, several thoughts of scripture come into mind with these question's you ask on down. Surely the 'damnable heresy' must be met. But it was referring to a virgin fold first I think in this chapter of 1 Tim. 5. And 2 Peter 2:1 as outsiders, [and] among you.

Gal. 2:11-13 Would get us into trouble on a forum if we did what Paul did. No one would understand as to why he did not do as Christ told us to do, by going to the individual in person, alone! Yet, Peter never made excuse, he realized he was flat out wrong, and that this was done in a crowd of people, & that it needed addressing in this same crowd to be set straight! But, who even knows what I have said, huh?

And surely there should be understood the difference between a forum & a fold that is supposed to be kept pure, and with the keys of heavenly Zion's earthly 'fold' in/trusted to it. Matt. 18:15-18. (Conditional surely!)

You say: "Do you think the writer of a ‘damnable heresy’ should be openly rebuked as in 1 Tim 5:20 or quietly corrected while hiding a multitude of sin as in James 5:19-20 or marked and avoided like Romans 16:17? These beliefs are bound up deep in our hearts and emotions can be stirred by any attempt to dislodge them, whether they are right or wrong. Love covers a multitude of sin so Ephesians 4:14 and 1 Tim 1:5 is the way to go no matter which option is taken, I guess. "

Me here again, who did Paul & Peter love most, the crowd, or Peter & his feelings??
Now we come to another thought of Titus 3:8-11. I try to follow this as nearly as possible on an individual basis. But on a forum, there are many folk listening to error. And rather than responding to a person's name that is posting this, I try to avoid this if I believe that he or they are an Abomination of the earth with their postings! But I do feel that it must be exposed!

That brings us back inside a 'fold'?? What now? First, I never would baptize any one that did not believe in the teachings of Matt. 28:18-20. Notice verse 20!

But, if one was inside, and in the membership, then again Matt. 18:15-18 must be followed if anything evil should surface. These are the Words of Christ, huh! Again, we are [to be in the FOLD that is trying to reclaim, not destroy!] But when James 1:15 is seen to be OPEN PRESUMPTUOUS SIN, it needs to be dealt with for all sakes, [even the person involved.]

Now again: If the 'fold itself' will not follow the Commandment's of Christ, both the Testimony & the Everlasting Covenant of Isaiah 8:20? Then they will be removed by God Himself and another candlestick put in it's place. Rev. 2:5, see chapter 1:20. Or Matt. 23:38 or Rev. 3:9 or Rev. 3:16-17 SPEWED OUT ONES! *And see Rev. 17:5 again in the compilars caps!

Yet, still, if there be no organization, there is NO EVERLASTING GOSPEL! The Lord will not come back for a bunch of LOOSE CANNONS that would just start up 'in time' another rebellion all over again in heaven!!
Nah. 1:9

 

[cyberjosh]

I apologize Josh, I was harsh and I hope you will forgive me.

God bless -

Jake

It's alright. No harm done. I'm sorry too if I appear sometimes to be impassable and set in my ways. I honestly try to obey God and conscience, and try my best to communicate to others (but I sometimes fail miserably). Please feel free at any time to make any appeals to me, or to reason something out with me.

I only try to speak my heart. Please forgive me if I have wronged any of you. God is particularly humbling me in other areas of my life right now, and I wish to do no wrong against any of my fellow brothers or sisters in Christ. May God strengthen us all in Christ.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Nathan]

We all are being worked on till He comes again. Work in progress. Day by day. And He works through others in our lives.

I think that one of the worst things someone can do is to sit complacent and not defend their faith. It is precisely how God 'tests' it. When exposed to 'fire', it will either burn or stand.

This is precisely why I find nothing wrong with questioning tradition. If it is founded upon the foundation of the Apostles, with Christ being the Cornerstone, then it will stand. But if it is not, it will burn and crumble.

Along with the above, the other thing that is more often done in error than not is the condemnation of those desiring to know truth. God does NOT 'need' us mere humans to fulfill His vengeance. I understand that we should be diligent to help others see error. But the anger of man will not produce the righteousness God wants.

How often I think of Moses. The God of all creation had been openly rebelled against by a people He desired. God had declared He would 'consume' them and start again with Moses himself. How humbling that would have been to him. What would that have been like? What thoughts raced through Moses mind? But then he interceded and did not condemn, EVEN though they were living in open sin.

He desired the people rather to repent and turn to God, to be healed rather than destroyed. So much so as to even say that he would rather be blotted from the book of life than to see all the children destroyed.

God desires our love for Him, but ALSO for each other even when it sometimes seem the others 'just don't get it'. God has a plan. It WILL be fulfilled. The time that is leading up to that fulfillment is meant for a blessing and not a curse. It is mean to be counted as a desire for turning and not a moment for condemnation.

If God withholds condemnation, why don't we? If God desires us to come to a deep relationship with Him, why don't we?

 

[pjt]

Well, you should not leave the church. . Just saying. But I understand what your saying.

I think it goes back to focusing on Christ. I still go to my local fellowship. There are still a lot of people there that have a desire to follow Christ. That is the simplicity of being a Christian; following Christ. Its not about how much we know, or how much we do. But that is what we have turned it into.

When its all said and done, Christ is going to look at you and ask you what you did with His 'gift'. The parable of the talent rings loud and clear with this truth. Its not going to be about what the guy beside you did, or what you did with someone else, its going to be a very personal matter.

That gift is faith. Pure and simple. Faith is the channel through which God's grace flows to us. Grace is God's pure power. God has given you a specialized gift above and beyond faith. You simply use it by faith. It does not matter where you meet, or how you meet with others. The whole idea is to not get so wrapped up into someone else's faith that you neglect yours.

I tend to agree with this in that I really don`t see how the church (meaning the Body of Believers) can turn things around and return to its original design because people are so ingrained in an institutionalized way of thinking. People have been too indoctrinated to believe the church means going to Sunday service once a week and the primary duty is to support the physical church building not the physical body of Christ. I think it is so flawed now just as humans are that we just have to deal the best we can until Christ returns and fixes things.

 

[Nathan]

Here is an old old post along the lines of a pastors 'duties'. It was posted on this site & perhaps the other friend is still around here using another 'handle' for his name as I am? Ether way, ask yourself if you would want this assignment as a laymen with your many gifts??

P/N/B here: Typo, several thoughts of scripture come into mind with these question's you ask on down. Surely the 'damnable heresy' must be met. But it was referring to a virgin fold first I think in this chapter of 1 Tim. 5. And 2 Peter 2:1 as outsiders, [and] among you.

Gal. 2:11-13 Would get us into trouble on a forum if we did what Paul did. No one would understand as to why he did not do as Christ told us to do, by going to the individual in person, alone! Yet, Peter never made excuse, he realized he was flat out wrong, and that this was done in a crowd of people, & that it needed addressing in this same crowd to be set straight! But, who even knows what I have said, huh?

And surely there should be understood the difference between a forum & a fold that is supposed to be kept pure, and with the keys of heavenly Zion's earthly 'fold' in/trusted to it. Matt. 18:15-18. (Conditional surely!)

You say: "Do you think the writer of a ‘damnable heresy’ should be openly rebuked as in 1 Tim 5:20 or quietly corrected while hiding a multitude of sin as in James 5:19-20 or marked and avoided like Romans 16:17? These beliefs are bound up deep in our hearts and emotions can be stirred by any attempt to dislodge them, whether they are right or wrong. Love covers a multitude of sin so Ephesians 4:14 and 1 Tim 1:5 is the way to go no matter which option is taken, I guess. "

Me here again, who did Paul & Peter love most, the crowd, or Peter & his feelings??
Now we come to another thought of Titus 3:8-11. I try to follow this as nearly as possible on an individual basis. But on a forum, there are many folk listening to error. And rather than responding to a person's name that is posting this, I try to avoid this if I believe that he or they are an Abomination of the earth with their postings! But I do feel that it must be exposed!

That brings us back inside a 'fold'?? What now? First, I never would baptize any one that did not believe in the teachings of Matt. 28:18-20. Notice verse 20!

But, if one was inside, and in the membership, then again Matt. 18:15-18 must be followed if anything evil should surface. These are the Words of Christ, huh! Again, we are [to be in the FOLD that is trying to reclaim, not destroy!] But when James 1:15 is seen to be OPEN PRESUMPTUOUS SIN, it needs to be dealt with for all sakes, [even the person involved.]

Now again: If the 'fold itself' will not follow the Commandment's of Christ, both the Testimony & the Everlasting Covenant of Isaiah 8:20? Then they will be removed by God Himself and another candlestick put in it's place. Rev. 2:5, see chapter 1:20. Or Matt. 23:38 or Rev. 3:9 or Rev. 3:16-17 SPEWED OUT ONES! *And see Rev. 17:5 again in the compilars caps!

Yet, still, if there be no organization, there is NO EVERLASTING GOSPEL! The Lord will not come back for a bunch of LOOSE CANNONS that would just start up 'in time' another rebellion all over again in heaven!!
Nah. 1:9

Luk 18:7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?

Luk 18:8 I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

 

[cyberjosh]

Awesome points Nathan, awesome points! When one truly studied the word and does his or her best to do so with as little preconception as possible, these are the types of questions and conclusions one usually will come to. The problem we have with religion is SYSTEMIC! The system and organization is not broken and does not have a problem, it IS the problem! It's dogma, hierarchies, and its respective denominational practices have done so much to separate believers in so many ways. We have a divide between denonimations and an even bigger divide between the laity and the clergy which spits in the face of Jesus' prayer in John 17 that we all be one.
All that being said, I believe it would me a mistake for us to try to reform the organizd church. We instead need to reform our own thinking to make sure that it conforms to what the word of God tells us. It all then starts with us as christians being more involved in each other's lives and establishing real, meaningful, personal relationships with each other. The formalities of organized religion have served to separate us for centuries, we need to say, "NO MORE" and start unifying with love as our common thread mirroring the saints we read about to fellowshiped with each other from house to house. They ate together, they laughed together, cried together, prayed together, suffered together, and encourage one another to endure and keep the faith together! Jesus' true "church" is NOT an organizatio but rather a people, and it is people that need to be the focus. Those of us who are older and mature in the faith need to take an active role as pastors (shephards) if we fit the descriptions given in Timothy and Titus recognizing that our excellent example, encouragement, and overseeing the "health" of the souls (lives) of our beloved brethren is needed. This can start with us being more hospitable as it is written in Titus and 1 Timothy. We need to let people into our lives so that we can share in theirs so that we will be able to see when they are struggling and what they are struggling with so that we can help them avoid and deal with the wiles of the devil they face.

Hurray! I agree. I think you hit this spot on of how the body itself needs to develop more in its own gifts, roles, and fellowship. That is akin to what I was saying about the body needing to do these things on their own and not wait for a pastor to tell them. In all this, however, I just did not want to dishonor or look down upon those we call pastors. Reform inside the Church is good, and if the body even listened to what their "designated pastor" instructed them to do from the words of Scripture, they might actually surprise themselves at how they raise leaders up right in the midst of their congregation. Imagine such a strong and interfunctioning body!

One strong emphasis I'm going to hook onto as well at my church is the importance of "small groups" (or "life groups") to get to interact with others in the body at a more personal level in each other's homes or outdoors, and there are no restrictions either on who may or may not lead a small group - it only takes a willing host. So I may even take them up on that to start a Bible study group to dig more into the Word and maybe God will bless me through the outworking of what I believe is my spiritual gift of teaching: which just like muscles must be exercised to grow.

But yes! Indeed I strongly agree and advocate "fellowshiping with each other from house to house"! Thank you for emphasising this. This brings a good balance to this discussion.

God Bless you!

~Josh