Bible Study "Pastor" Office or Gift?

[pjt]

Secondly, what you describe seems to be the 'move' in the "churches" today. The pastor getting frustrated with the 'pew sitters' and they are starting to speak out about it. I think this is where this discussion has been born. But with all due respect, their the ones who are responsible for the people sitting. But I think that deep inside they know this, but years of tradition keeps 'muddying' the truth.

.

I see this as a problem too. The system is set up for people to pay the pastor to do the work for them. So if the pastor complains about pew sitters and himself having to do all the work, it is like going to a restaurant and the chef complaining about having to slave away in the hot kitchen while all the customers are out there just comfortably sitting at the tables waiting for him to cook for them. When people pay a pastor`s salary they are expecting something in return for their money. Therefore, he must wear all the hats in order to make his job a full time salaried position. If he just has a gift of preaching then that would not justify a full time salary for a 30 minute speech once a week. If he just has a gift in shepherding, then the older ladies who visit the sick would complain they do the same thing with their own time and money and never expect anything in return. If they just have a gift in teaching then the Sunday School teachers would complain they teach Sunday School each week voluntarily so why should the pastor be paid for what they do for free.

Moreover if the pastor complains too much about pew sitters people can say he is paid and has all the free time to do this work but they have to work regular jobs. Therefore, that is what he is paid to do.

On the other hand, I have known churches that do strongly push the congregation to do church work but this can have 2 negative side effects. 1) it can just be busy social/community work not necessarily church work that is building up the body of Christ. It is work to build up the world not the Body. 2) sometimes the work overloads a person. They may also be asked to wear too many hats that may not be their gifting and the result is they have to neglect themselves and their families to do the church work.

It seems the ideal would be everyone just contributing to the Body according to their gift. If everyone was contributing and allowed to contribute (this is another issue), then the burden would be light across the board. But I don`t see an ideal until Christ returns.

 

[Nathan]

I tend to agree with this in that I really don`t see how the church can turn things around and return to its original design. I think it is very flawed now but so are humans and we just have to deal the best we can until Christ returns and fixes things.

Here is what I mean. What we call the 'church' is really not the Church. Therefore we will never be able to turn it around. It is fulfilling the purpose it was created for. What I meant, in a sarcastic way, is you should not leave the true Church. Please do not get that mixed up with people who meet together in buildings on Sunday mornings.

The real Church is alive and well. It manifests itself when real believers come together. Its not about what it looks like on the outside, but about who their love is tied to inside. We get wrapped up in do's and don't's, right and wrongs. God calls, God adds, God builds, God manifests, God gives! Praise God! Those who follow Him, who have been called by Him, by nature will serve Him and do His will. We get tied up in the control factor of all of this thinking we are the ones who build.

There is not so much that needs to be 'fixed' but rather understood. When He comes again we will understand. We will see Him as He is. He will divide the tares from the wheat. Until then it seems that we are going to be 'mixed' up to a certain degree. However, there are gifts that He gives to us to keep us and grow up until He comes. They are gifts that should be used for the body. To build it, not destroy it. My desire is that we come back to a true understanding of the gifts.

 

[cyberjosh]

This is precisely why I find nothing wrong with questioning tradition. If it is founded upon the foundation of the Apostles, with Christ being the Cornerstone, then it will stand. But if it is not, it will burn and crumble.

Along with the above, the other thing that is more often done in error than not is the condemnation of those desiring to know truth. God does NOT 'need' us mere humans to fulfill His vengeance. I understand that we should be diligent to help others see error. But the anger of man will not produce the righteousness God wants.

Hi Nathan,

This is something I was slowly trying to get around to ask so that we can wrap this discussion back around on itself. Questioning tradition is good if it causes us to evaluate what we believe and let fall what falls but hold on to what stands. As the Scripture says, "Test everything; hold on to what is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). One of the first things that I sincerely wanted your opinion on, so that we can build up this discussion, was the last paragraph in this post where I asked what you had in mind about something, and offered a possible example of what I thought you might have meant. Secondly my other sincere question was, what parts of the pastorate (since this thread is about "pastors") need to end as parts of tradition, and what should we be proposing in its stead?

Earlier on I expressed a concern at the idea that there should be no leaders, and now also recently as ToverT posted many of us also in the body itself should raise up as pastors among the flock. But then I must ask (as I pointed to from explicit principle in Titus 1) what then is to be our ordering principle if we shift in this direction of 'many' pastors? Okay, so grant that I want to make this change, how then do we maintain order?

- Should we each do our own thing, but occasionally convene together in councils like the Apostles did in Acts 15 to address tough issues? Who will oversee the procedings?

- Or as biblically suggested should we have elders as leader/examples, as Moses also did to appoint 70 elders to oversee and help Moses rule over the 3 million Israelites?

Let us now start constructing a game plan (Jesus illustrated that it is good to plan ahead Luke 14:28-30). Something that we can take to our churches with the suggestion of reform. How would we do it? What is the best route that will keep order in the house of God and keep peace in its midst and not confusion? And where ultimately do the 'roles' (perhaps, if you care for the term) of elders and 'many' pastors fit into the congregation?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

I see this as a problem too. The system is set up for people to pay the pastor to do the work for them. So if the pastor complains about pew sitters and himself having to do all the work, it is like going to a restaurant and the chef complaining about having to slave away in the hot kitchen while all the customers are out there just comfortably sitting at the tables waiting for him to cook for them. When people pay a pastor`s salary they are expecting something in return for their money.

A small word here to add some perspective: there is a difference between complaining and encouraging. And the difference in this case would be determined from out of what attitude and state of the heart that the person uttered the words (which would constitute the two very different actions). If it was a matter of him not working, then certainly complaining. But if it was him, or you or I, trying to wake some from spiritual lethargy (shepherds watch out for such dangers if they do their duty) then I would call it encouraging. It depends on the state of the heart. So what you said could be true in one case, if the pastor was complaining. From the personal example I gave of my own pastor, he was encouraging. I can tell the difference as well as the next man. And I was not the only one present at the time who also understood that.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

I one last thing which I just need to ask bluntly, but not accusatively or harshly:

Does anyone here wish to disparage pastors in churches across the world?

Admittedly some of the traditions are not looked well upon, and some things we would agree upon concerning that topic. But do we really seek to bring all under a single judgment? That is my only fear of an extremity in this topic (John 7:24). I fear there is some sentiment which has, as of yet, remained unspoken. How many godly men would we condemn in the process whom Christ himself does not condemn (Romans 8:1)? Would you consider carefully for the sake of even "ten" righteous (Genesis 18:32)?

And even if one does not like pastors, as we currently have them, please remember the parable of the wheat and the tares. Be gracious and mindful for the sake of the some amounts of wheat. If we were to uproot all, as God has graciously refrained from doing with us for our own sake, what wheat might we also tear up in the process?

God bless and please do not take this wrong.

~Josh

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,

This is something I was slowly trying to get around to ask so that we can wrap this discussion back around on itself. Questioning tradition is good if it causes us to evaluate what we believe and let fall what falls but hold on to what stands. As the Scripture says, "Test everything; hold on to what is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). One of the first things that I sincerely wanted your opinion on, so that we can build up this discussion, was the last paragraph in this post where I asked what you had in mind about something, and offered a possible example of what I thought you might have meant. Secondly my other sincere question was, what parts of the pastorate (since this thread is about "pastors") need to end as parts of tradition, and what should we be proposing in its stead?

Earlier on I expressed a concern at the idea that there should be no leaders, and now also recently as ToverT posted many of us also in the body itself should raise up as pastors among the flock. But then I must ask (as I pointed to from explicit principle in Titus 1) what then is to be our ordering principle is we shift in this direction of many pastors? Okay, so grant I want to make this change, how then do we maintain order?

-Should we each do our own thing but occasionally convene in councils like the Apostles did in Acts 15 to address tough issues? Who will oversee the procedings?

- Or as biblically suggested should we have elders as leader/examples, as Moses also did to appoint 70 elders to oversee and help Moses rule over the 3 million Israelites?

Let us now start constructing a game plan (Jesus illustrated that it is good to plan ahead Luke 14:28-30). Something we can take to our churches with the suggestion of reform. How would we do it? What is the best route that will keep order in the house of God and keep peace in its midst and not confusion? And where ultimately do the 'roles' (perhaps, if you care for the term) of elders and 'many' pastors fit into the congregation?

God Bless,

~Josh

Josh, I am sorry that I lost some of the questions in the discussion. It was not purposefully. You raise an excellent point. While the intention of this topic was to come to a conclusion on what people believed about the role of pastor; it turned into a discussion of what seems to have been 'added' to the gift/position. So will all due diligence to express the truth we should begin to move forward with this.

I will respond tomorrow, tonights time is up for me. But this should prove to be beneficial to us all I believe. And because I KNOW I am not the only one with gifts to share, maybe there are others who have a word to share concerning this.

 

[cyberjosh]

There is not so much that needs to be 'fixed' but rather understood. When He comes again we will understand. We will see Him as He is. He will divide the tares from the wheat. Until then it seems that we are going to be 'mixed' up to a certain degree. However, there are gifts that He gives to us to keep us and grow up until He comes. They are gifts that should be used for the body. To build it, not destroy it. My desire is that we come back to a true understanding of the gifts.

Ah, I did not even see that you had made this post before I made my post about the wheat. I like your approach here. And surely it should be the gifts focused on. Paul made clear in 1 Corinthians that it is focusing on that honorable matter, rather than how the gifts might "divide" us, that is important.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh, I am sorry that I lost some of the questions in the discussion. It was not purposefully. You raise an excellent point. While the intention of this topic was to come to a conclusion on what people believed about the role of pastor; it turned into a discussion of what seems to have been 'added' to the gift/position. So will all due diligence to express the truth we should begin to move forward with this.

I will respond tomorrow, tonights time is up for me. But this should prove to be beneficial to us all I believe. And because I KNOW I am not the only one with gifts to share, maybe there are others who have a word to share concerning this.

No problem.
And have a good rest! Till tomorrow... :waving


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Maybe you could pray to meet other like minded people in your community, that is what I am doing.

As far as ministering, there are tons of opportunities in every community. Right now I am involved with this huge project within my community. I saw this ad up at the store, that they needed people, and so I signed up and yesterday they put me in a lead position of about 100 people (and I have never led anyone in my entire life haha). We are not all like minded on every piece of doctrine, but it IS the Body of Christ working side-by-side, using our spiritual gifts.

That's awesome! What exactly are you doing? I have begun to get involved in the community involvement opportunities through work also. The last thing I was involved in was packaging cans and bags of food into dozens of boxes for poor and homeless people for Christmas (at a Christmas Charity food distribution center). My company will also match money donated to charities. So I'm excited about some of the stuff I can do through work as well.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[pjt]

I one last thing which I just need to ask bluntly, but not accusatively or harshly:

Does anyone here wish to disparage pastors in churches across the world?

Admittedly some of the traditions are not looked well upon, and some things we would agree upon concerning that topic. But do we really seek to bring all under a single judgment? That is my only fear of an extremity in this topic (John 7:24). I fear there is some sentiment which has, as of yet, remained unspoken. How many godly men would we condemn in the process whom Christ himself does not condemn (Romans 8:1)? Would you consider carefully for the sake of even "ten" righteous (Genesis 18:32)?

And even if one does not like pastors, as we currently have them, please remember the parable of the wheat and the tares. Be gracious and mindful for the sake of the some amounts of wheat. If we were to uproot all, as God has graciously refrained from doing with us for our own sake, what wheat might we also tear up in the process?

God bless and please do not take this wrong.

~Josh

I can`t speak for everyone but I don`t want to disparage pastors. I`m just in this discussion because I find it interesting and it is a topic I`ve been wondering about myself for sometime now. I see the situation with pastors unfair to them as well. They are asked to wear many hats and perform many gifts that they may not even have. If they don`t perform a gift well, people are quick to criticize them. And criticism to pastors` wives can be brutal, but because of church politics/career a pastor has to be careful in how he responds to criticism. So I don`t see this as a discussion about demonizing pastors. I see it as just a discussion about have we humans created a role for a pastor that God did not really design and now those who want to serve God have been conditioned to believing the way they do that is to go to seminary and become a pastor; whereas perhaps they don`t really have to do that. Perhaps they can serve God according to just their gift. Anyway, I think it is an interesting discussion.
I guess the next question is should being a pastor be a career choice or just an act of service to the Body?

 

[Cornelius]

I`m glad to find someone else who thinks this way, but then the question comes how do we redirect the church back to being a body rather than operating as a once/twice a week organization? It seems like an overwhelming if not impossible task to accomplish.

It would be if we went about it like we always did before. Men leading men, men thinking they must change the system. Reformation is a partial solution.

God wants to church to be holy ( sanctified) , that is : separated from the word. Let's face it , the modern church is far from that today. We have a system now, that has one foot in the world and not a body which is separated and holy.

From God's view , there are only two "bodies" in the world. The body of Christ and the body of antichrist. He uses different names to describe the same two "bodies". We have Jerusalem and Babylon or He calls it : The Virgin Bride versus the Harlot.

So here is step one : Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: Notice "My people" (Christians) In other words, He is already saying that there are Christians who are indeed involved in the Harlot/Babylon.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I can`t speak for everyone but I don`t want to disparage pastors. I`m just in this discussion because I find it interesting and it is a topic I`ve been wondering about myself for sometime now. I see the situation with pastors unfair to them as well. They are asked to wear many hats and perform many gifts that they may not even have. If they don`t perform a gift well, people are quick to criticize them. And criticism to pastors` wives can be brutal, but because of church politics/career a pastor has to be careful in how he responds to criticism. So I don`t see this as a discussion about demonizing pastors. I see it as just a discussion about have we humans created a role for a pastor that God did not really design and now those who want to serve God have been conditioned to believing the way they do that is to go to seminary and become a pastor; whereas perhaps they don`t really have to do that. Perhaps they can serve God according to just their gift. Anyway, I think it is an interesting discussion.
I guess the next question is should being a pastor be a career choice or just an act of service to the Body?

To me, that issue is the elephant in the room. Things haveelvolved so much over time that it has become the norm for preachers/pastors to make their living off of that work. I can remember a time when much churches were community churches and thus smaller and the pastors had outside jobs as their means for making a living.
I am currently of the belief based on my current understanding of scripture, that the gospel should always be offered free of charge.

 

[Elijah674]

To me, that issue is the elephant in the room. Things have elvolved so much over time that it has become the norm for preachers/pastors to make their living off of that work. I can remember a time when much churches were community churches and thus smaller and the pastors had outside jobs as their means for making a living.
I am currently of the belief based on my current understanding of scripture, that the gospel should always be offered free of charge.

Well, Elijah agree's with THE REQUIREMENT of Rev. 18:4. But that is not enough! Revival alone Requires REFORMATION back to the truth of the Bible Christ. And only these who Truely LOVE Christ will toss out 'false doctrines'. (+ 'open sinners' doctrines!)

Matt. 23:23 will need to be applied as Christ stated... 'AND NOT TO LEAVE THE OTHER UNDONE'.

 

[Nathan]

What do you have in mind though? It's not like the pastor is a movie for us to watch. As I said this would require quality time with the pastor at other times than sermons. So what exactly did you have in mind here, so that I can undestand what you are trying to say? Perhaps you mean like, as an example, what I said about our Church calling all to corporately participate in praying and fasting for three weeks, which the pastor did indeed lead by example by doing the same? That involved no preaching whatsoever, only prayer and dedicating one's self to fasting.

Let me go ahead and answer this, and I'll address the other questions in another post.

What I meant by "leading by example" is if the pastor came in and started doing what a pastor does, by definition of the gift, not by definition of we know it. Obviously we have been conditioned to look at the "pastor" as many things, yet, the title of only "pastor" sticks with him.

So, what I mean is if he came in and simply was a pastor. No sermon, no speech, but pure interaction with those in the 'flock'. I am sure at first people would wonder whats going on. But maybe it would start people to thinking that if he is doing what we instinctively understand a pastor to be, then maybe I should be doing what ever it is that is my gift.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,

This is something I was slowly trying to get around to ask so that we can wrap this discussion back around on itself. Questioning tradition is good if it causes us to evaluate what we believe and let fall what falls but hold on to what stands. As the Scripture says, "Test everything; hold on to what is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). One of the first things that I sincerely wanted your opinion on, so that we can build up this discussion, was the last paragraph in this post where I asked what you had in mind about something, and offered a possible example of what I thought you might have meant. Secondly my other sincere question was, what parts of the pastorate (since this thread is about "pastors") need to end as parts of tradition, and what should we be proposing in its stead?

Earlier on I expressed a concern at the idea that there should be no leaders, and now also recently as ToverT posted many of us also in the body itself should raise up as pastors among the flock. But then I must ask (as I pointed to from explicit principle in Titus 1) what then is to be our ordering principle if we shift in this direction of 'many' pastors? Okay, so grant that I want to make this change, how then do we maintain order?

- Should we each do our own thing, but occasionally convene together in councils like the Apostles did in Acts 15 to address tough issues? Who will oversee the procedings?

- Or as biblically suggested should we have elders as leader/examples, as Moses also did to appoint 70 elders to oversee and help Moses rule over the 3 million Israelites?

Let us now start constructing a game plan (Jesus illustrated that it is good to plan ahead Luke 14:28-30). Something that we can take to our churches with the suggestion of reform. How would we do it? What is the best route that will keep order in the house of God and keep peace in its midst and not confusion? And where ultimately do the 'roles' (perhaps, if you care for the term) of elders and 'many' pastors fit into the congregation?

God Bless,

~Josh

I know this is not what your saying, but just to make it abundantly clear I believe in leadership. In fact, discipleship requires it. Order is probably the number one reason the 'position' we call pastor is the way it is. Along with its the number one reason to 'not change'. Fear of mayhem is more of a motivating factor than holiness.

I think that small fellowships are indeed the way to go. Exactly why do we need to gather in such a large group anyways? Think about it. When 1000 people gather, there is only so many people that you are going to be able to really fellowship with. Large groups really serve NO purpose. Its not anything negative, its just simple fact. The only reason to gather so many people together at one time is CONTROL. That is it. The more people together at one time the more people can be spoken TOO. The more people together at one time the less people can interact intimately.

This happens all the time. I cannot tell you how many times I am holding an intimate conversation with someone and someone else will come up and start talking. Is that just a 'large' group occurrence? No, it can happen in small groups also. But the fact is the smaller the group, the less likely people are going to be moving from one person to another. That is what the large group setting seems to promote. Because there are so many people to talk to, people want to be as close as possible with each one, but in doing so it becomes less intimate.

Think about it for a moment. What reason is there for large gatherings? And if there is a good purpose for it, then why doesn't your fellowship simply meet with the fellowship that meets down the street? When ever you sit back and really think about it there are specific reasons, and none of them can be traced back to Biblical reasons. On the other hand, you can indeed see very good reasons why small gatherings promote very Biblical principles.

So yes, small groups is what I would propose. Now, as far as the 'leader-ship' or the 'elder-ship' is concerned, they would simply be in place as God see's fit. When the body is functioning as a true body, it knows when there is too much attached, or when there is a 'member' that should be there but is not. Elders would naturally come from a group who's devotion is to Christ, along with all the other parts that are needed for the body to function.

But what happens when the body 'grows' real big? Then it reproduces. It has to 'let go of control', and it turns into another body. The elders are elders because of their spiritual maturity. The pastors are pastors because of their passion for the individual. These 'positions' will naturally fill themselves JUST LIKE all the other 'positions' will. All it takes is a dependence on Christ as Lord, we can trust Him to be a perfect Savior, why can we not trust Him to be a perfect Lord?

And there lies the issue. People want a savior, not a Lord. They want security, not a Master. And so the 'pastors' are really not the ultimate issue that would have to be overcome within the 'church' as it is so called. The issue is all the "professed" Christians(who really are not). Their desire is to 'feel good'. However, pastors inadvertently enable this to take place. Like I said, my heart goes out to the pastors today, but at the same time they are going to have to let go of pride and control and get back to what a pastor is all about.

This goes along with my statement of them just 'leading by example'. If a pastor would take his gift seriously, then he could see that even though he might feel a compassion to be 'more' than what he is gifted for, the greater need is to choose to follow Christ and His way. When he lets go of control and just starts to be a 'pastor' it might not be so glamorous anymore for him. People may even talk bad about him. But its only at those times of surrender that we truly walk in faith. And his simple walking in faith would speak volumes to those who are desperately needing to see someone walk by faith.

 

[pjt]

I know this is not what your saying, but just to make it abundantly clear I believe in leadership. In fact, discipleship requires it. Order is probably the number one reason the 'position' we call pastor is the way it is. Along with its the number one reason to 'not change'. Fear of mayhem is more of a motivating factor than holiness.

I think that small fellowships are indeed the way to go. Exactly why do we need to gather in such a large group anyways? Think about it. When 1000 people gather, there is only so many people that you are going to be able to really fellowship with. Large groups really serve NO purpose. Its not anything negative, its just simple fact. The only reason to gather so many people together at one time is CONTROL. That is it. The more people together at one time the more people can be spoken TOO. The more people together at one time the less people can interact intimately.

This happens all the time. I cannot tell you how many times I am holding an intimate conversation with someone and someone else will come up and start talking. Is that just a 'large' group occurrence? No, it can happen in small groups also. But the fact is the smaller the group, the less likely people are going to be moving from one person to another. That is what the large group setting seems to promote. Because there are so many people to talk to, people want to be as close as possible with each one, but in doing so it becomes less intimate.

Think about it for a moment. What reason is there for large gatherings? And if there is a good purpose for it, then why doesn't your fellowship simply meet with the fellowship that meets down the street? When ever you sit back and really think about it there are specific reasons, and none of them can be traced back to Biblical reasons. On the other hand, you can indeed see very good reasons why small gatherings promote very Biblical principles.

So yes, small groups is what I would propose. Now, as far as the 'leader-ship' or the 'elder-ship' is concerned, they would simply be in place as God see's fit. When the body is functioning as a true body, it knows when there is too much attached, or when there is a 'member' that should be there but is not. Elders would naturally come from a group who's devotion is to Christ, along with all the other parts that are needed for the body to function.

But what happens when the body 'grows' real big? Then it reproduces. It has to 'let go of control', and it turns into another body. The elders are elders because of their spiritual maturity. The pastors are pastors because of their passion for the individual. These 'positions' will naturally fill themselves JUST LIKE all the other 'positions' will. All it takes is a dependence on Christ as Lord, we can trust Him to be a perfect Savior, why can we not trust Him to be a perfect Lord?

And there lies the issue. People want a savior, not a Lord. They want security, not a Master. And so the 'pastors' are really not the ultimate issue that would have to be overcome within the 'church' as it is so called. The issue is all the "professed" Christians(who really are not). Their desire is to 'feel good'. However, pastors inadvertently enable this to take place. Like I said, my heart goes out to the pastors today, but at the same time they are going to have to let go of pride and control and get back to what a pastor is all about.

This goes along with my statement of them just 'leading by example'. If a pastor would take his gift seriously, then he could see that even though he might feel a compassion to be 'more' than what he is gifted for, the greater need is to choose to follow Christ and His way. When he lets go of control and just starts to be a 'pastor' it might not be so glamorous anymore for him. People may even talk bad about him. But its only at those times of surrender that we truly walk in faith. And his simple walking in faith would speak volumes to those who are desperately needing to see someone walk by faith.

I can see a place for large groups coming together. Look at the festivals in the Bible where large groups came together. It`s like a family reunion, pep rally, or fun convention so to speak, but the heart of the church is in the local community interacting day by day I believe.

As for "small groups", I don`t know if these are the answer either. They are still controlled by the main church, they are fluid meaning people come and go, and they are just once a week. They are not necessarily the Body functioning as the Body. They are a small group of people getting together to study the Bible 1-2 hours a week, and then go their separate ways. I don`t see that as the definition of God`s Church.

 

[Elijah674]

I can see a place for large groups coming together. Look at the festivals in the Bible where large groups came together. It`s like a family reunion, pep rally, or fun convention so to speak, but the heart of the church is in the local community interacting day by day I believe.

As for "small groups", I don`t know if these are the answer either. They are still controlled by the main church, they are fluid meaning people come and go, and they are just once a week. They are not necessarily the Body functioning as the Body. They are a small group of people getting together to study the Bible 1-2 hours a week, and then go their separate ways. I don`t see that as the definition of God`s Church.

The main thing is not the 'gifts' but the Doctrines taught for truth. Bottom/line has a world full of gifts + talent with the Broadway ones. And the MASTER of Matt. 7 documents this, along with these 'gifts' clearly seen.

All of there 'teachings' clearly are not the CHURCH that Christ TOLD OF IN Isa. 5! Verse 3 is what WAS TO BE SEEN IN TOP PRIORITY, Not the talents & 'GIFTS'. [JUDGE, I PRAY YOU, BETWIXT ME AND MY VINEYARD]. & verse 7 finds Christ's Vineyard being His HOUSE. (being 2 or 3 OBEDIENT ONES even!)

And John 12:42-43 finds GIFTS being even more important than the DOCTRINE that these ones DESIRED IN THE PLACE OF CHRIST?? My thinking is that most of the thread [postings] has gotten the Required Golden Apple which IS CHRIST of the Word of God, once again on the bottom end of the spectrum of lukewarm choice. There is not even a 'OBEDIENT' group started & we read of who is the gifte or boss type of thoughts?

In other words, what is the MOTIVE BEHIND THESE ONES [OBEDIENCE] OF Rev. 18:4????? (or 2 Cor. 6:14-18)

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

I can see a place for large groups coming together. Look at the festivals in the Bible where large groups came together. It`s like a family reunion, pep rally, or fun convention so to speak, but the heart of the church is in the local community interacting day by day I believe.

As for "small groups", I don`t know if these are the answer either. They are still controlled by the main church, they are fluid meaning people come and go, and they are just once a week. They are not necessarily the Body functioning as the Body. They are a small group of people getting together to study the Bible 1-2 hours a week, and then go their separate ways. I don`t see that as the definition of God`s Church.

I agree. All believers across the world are a part of the Church. I can see where localized "fellowships" can gather together in large groups like you say. I can also see where people with 'like gifts' could gather for educational purposes.

As far as small groups. I do not mean small groups in the sense that we think of them as a 'branch' off a large 'church gathering'. I mean them in the literal sense that they are small. How small is small? I have no clue. But I believe they should be allowed to be as large, or small, as is needed to function. There is really no way to 'plan' something like that.

The group should be small enough to foster the growth of each individual that comes together. I think that the breaking point is when a person can come and sit and never interact with anyone, and I am not just talking about the cordial 'hand shake' and "How are you today?". At that point is where I see a 'group' being to large.

We cannot blame a person not interacting on the person. They could be an absolute 'babe' in Christ. Would you blame a baby for not crawling over to you and wanting to interact? I think a little 'common' sense would go a long way in looking at what size a fellowship should be.

 

[Nathan]

The main thing is not the 'gifts' but the Doctrines taught for truth. Bottom/line has a world full of gifts + talent with the Broadway ones. And the MASTER of Matt. 7 documents this, along with these 'gifts' clearly seen.

All of there 'teachings' clearly are not the CHURCH that Christ TOLD OF IN Isa. 5! Verse 3 is what WAS TO BE SEEN IN TOP PRIORITY, Not the talents & 'GIFTS'. [JUDGE, I PRAY YOU, BETWIXT ME AND MY VINEYARD]. & verse 7 finds Christ's Vineyard being His HOUSE. (being 2 or 3 OBEDIENT ONES even!)

And John 12:42-43 finds GIFTS being even more important than the DOCTRINE that these ones DESIRED IN THE PLACE OF CHRIST?? My thinking is that most of the thread [postings] has gotten the Required Golden Apple which IS CHRIST of the Word of God, once again on the bottom end of the spectrum of lukewarm choice. There is not even a 'OBEDIENT' group started & we read of who is the gifte or boss type of thoughts?

In other words, what is the MOTIVE BEHIND THESE ONES [OBEDIENCE] OF Rev. 18:4????? (or 2 Cor. 6:14-18)

--Elijah

True! Ephesians 4 does not speak about the body being built by the gifts, but the doctrine they pass on.

Jhn 17:17-20 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word...

It is when we focus on the gift, not the body, that we go along the broadway. The "focus" that we, (me), is trying to get too is the TRUTH. The focus has, and is, been on the gift. Specifically in the "church" today, as it is called, the focus is on the specific gift of the pastor. Until one steps away from the belief that the pastor is the 'intercessor' between man and God, then no amount of 'doctrine' teaching is going to accomplish anything. Gatherings will amount to nothing more than people getting together to listen to one part of the body speak.

The only way to keep 'false doctrine' from being taught is to have checks and balances. Those checks and balances are found in Scripture, THE WORD. That word is near everyone of us, it is in our hearts. That is why it should be that everyone of us share with each other the things God has given to us, understanding that He is the CENTER of all things.

 

[Elijah674]

There is only one Virgin Fold (Eph. 4:5-Psalms 77:13) that was REMOVED from the Lampstand & was extended with the Remnant from these ones TRUE Teachings, and who still possesed these Virgin doctrines. Matt. 25 has this PRESENT DAY message documented again in Matt. 10:5-6 on. It is a twice repeated truth according to Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 + verse Matt. 10:23's verse with Christ already there at that 'time' speaking.

OK: These were the ones (Remnant) who already were in the True Doctrines of Christ's Isa. 5's True Fold. When they went through to 'THE LOST SHEEP'S HOUSE', it was these 'ones that heard & obeyed' that made up the Acts New Virgin [EXTENDED FOLD,] (Rev. 2:5 + Rev. 3:16) and these ones were already MATURE IN VIRGIN TRUTHS. There were NO REASONS to worry about the 'gifts' being needed, these ones had them already! They were & are to be tested by fire.

Seperate meetings are not the issue untile the reason & MOTIVE are ESTABLISHED! Note Matt.10:5-6 'LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE..' and [THEN VERSE 15's Present Day Message!] These ones message caused the 2 Thess. 2:1-3 in their day & they were SEPERATED, CUT OFF WITH A CLOSED DOOR OF PROBATION, + Matt. 23:38's DESOLATE HOUSE! And these ones are are to be judged worse than S.& G. in Judgement!?

OK, think again!! JUDGEMENT??? We just found that the Matt. 25:10 verse found this ex/fold JUDGED LOST AS A FOLD! So even here, you are learning ('i' hope) that this INSPIRATION speaks of the Executional phase of Judgement.
Hell's second death of Luke 12:47-48. Judgement has one saved or lost & the End Judgement has Justified Execution.

So: Rev. 18:4 has a Remnant fold once again to either form or join! And Acts 2 on will again be repeated. Rev. 12:17 finds that Truth with none of these 144000 ones needing revival with REFORMATION. These are seen in Rev. 3:10's last conflict. (as 'i' see it)

--Elijah