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StoveBolts said:
Back track your own posts buddy. I aint doing no more of your work. Do it yourself. As far as the rest of your questions, I have stated my position many times, yet you refuse to listen and put words into my mouth.

As far as you remark, I believe in one thread you stated something to the effect,
"Perhaps Oscar3 is right, maybe the church of christ is a cult"

Sublte olo, subtle... your not that cool.
You have no evidence that I have stated that the Church of Christ is a cult. You are guilty of false witness against a believer.

The Church of Christ that I attend for various speaking events have one service a week with instrumental music and two services per week for their non-instumental diehards. Their elders have done an indepth Bible study and have come to the conclusion that instruments are AOK with God.

Your position is one of an infidel on many occasions, and your doctrinal beliefs are suspect, but other than that you are probably a swell guy. It amazes me that you side with the Roman Catholic doctrines, and the Atheists, and the Muslims, but you attack one small soul like me with such fervor. Why is that. You have yet to bring up any doctrinal issues that you disagree with me on. If you do, I will be glad to help correct you from your error.
 
Solo said:
You have no evidence that I have stated that the Church of Christ is a cult. You are guilty of false witness against a believer.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ht=#317986
Solo said:
I totally agree. Perhaps CoC is a cult like Oscar says.......[/b]

Seeds of doubt... it's accusatory without substance but leaves an impression on the minds of others.

I've done some of your homework.. now do your own.
 
Solo said:
The Church of Christ that I attend for various speaking events have one service a week with instrumental music and two services per week for their non-instumental diehards. Their elders have done an indepth Bible study and have come to the conclusion that instruments are AOK with God..

The sandbox I was describing... Do I need to build a case against you or do you see it yet?
 
StoveBolts said:
Solo said:
You have no evidence that I have stated that the Church of Christ is a cult. You are guilty of false witness against a believer.
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ht=#317986
Solo said:
I totally agree. Perhaps CoC is a cult like Oscar says.......[/b]
Seeds of doubt... it's accusatory without substance but leaves an impression on the minds of others.

I've done some of your homework.. now do your own.

First of all my original quote concerning the Church of Christ was in response to a ridiculous post of yours concerning witchcraft, and I was giving JM a tongue-in-cheek response that perhaps Oscar3 was correct that the Church of Christ was a cult.

Here is that post of mine:

Solo said:
JM said:
The Bible is the word of God, it's not secular wisdom, but God breathed.
I totally agree. Perhaps CoC is a cult like Oscar says.......Hmmmm, or maybe Stovebolts is out on a limb by himself. ;-)

I did not say that the Church of Christ was a cult as you insinuate.

Here is the post from Oscar3 that I was referring to concerning his statement calling the Church of Christ a cult at http://www.christianforums.net/posting. ... e&p=316295 .

oscar3 said:
Great stuff RED
There is another destructive doctrine of the church of christ cult. This to me looks like RCC OR CC



The
church of christ is a false religion because it is wrong on the essential Biblical plan of salvation. In fact, many church of christ ministers have taught that the church of christ group is the true church of christ, and no one else is. They even go as far as to claim that people who haven't been baptized by a church of christ preacher will go to Hell. I distinctly recall a discussion I once had with a church of christ minister. He was arrogant, doctrinally corrupt, and unsaved. He believed that for a person to be saved, they had to have faith, repent of sins, and be baptized. Well, that's two items too many! The only thing that God requires of men to be saved is faith alone in church.

"Repent" in the Bible, concerning salvation, simply means "a change of mind," not the forsaking of one's sins. The forsaking of one's sins is a result of growing in grace, which often takes many years, as a believer grows in the Lord. One does not have to surrender anything to the Lord to be saved, BUT, simply believe upon the Lord (Acts 16:31). The only thing that a person needs to repent of to be saved is their unbelief. Salvation is a free gift (Romans 5:15). A "gift" has no strings attached. Many preachers have developed the bad habit of requiring people to walk down to the front of the
church to be saved; BUT, that is a work not required by God. Why does a person need to walk down to the front of the church? Can't they be saved in their pew? Of course they can! If you'll simply believe upon Jesus church to forgive your sins and save you, then you will go to Heaven when you die (John 14:6; Romans 10:13).

2nd Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore if any man be in
church, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." Carefully notice the phrase, "if any man be in church..." The change comes AFTER a person is saved, not as a requirement to be saved. Salvation is like picking an old soda can out of the garbage. You've saved it, but it hasn't been recycled (converted) yet. Likewise, God pulls us out of the garbage when He saves us; BUT, now He must recycle us into His image. churchian growth in grace is not required to go to Heaven. I know this shocks many self-righteous religious people; but it's Biblical (John 3:3; Romans 4:3-5; Ephesians 2:8,9). If you trust Jesus church as your Saviour, you're going to Heaven, whether you grow in the Lord or not while on earth. There are some lousy churchians in this world, but that doesn't mean they're not saved. King David was an adulterer, murderer, and crook; BUT, he only lost the joy of salvation, not salvation itself. Such rebellious believers will give account at the Judgment Seat of christ.


'Baptismal Regeneration' is Unbiblical

church of christ members teach that baptism is required for salvation, but it is not. They believe that obedience is a part of salvation. However, the only thing which we must obey to be saved is the Gospel, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus church." There is nothing in the Bible which requires a person to be baptized in order to be saved. On the contrary, we read in John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." One who has trusted in church is saved, not condemned, whether he has been baptized or not. John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." There is no mention in this verse concerning baptism. Or what about John 10:9, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." Again, there is no mention of being baptized to be saved. There are hundreds of New Testament references which mention faith in church, without baptism being mentioned. Clearly, it is faith alone in church which saves a person, without baptism. The church of christ cult teaches damnable heresies by ADDING requirements which God didn't add.

A careful study of the Scriptures with an honest heart makes it quite clear that works CANNOT save a person, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified IN HIS SIGHT: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." One cannot be justified in the sight of God by WORKS. When James spoke of being justified by works, he clearly stated...

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: SHEW ME thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James was speaking about being justified in the SIGHT OF MEN. 1st Samuel 16:7 tells us why, "...for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." Man cannot see our heart's faith, so he looks at our works instead. However, God can see our heart, and it is all that He looks at. It is true that faith without works is dead; BUT, it is equally true that salvation (justification in the sight of God), comes by faith, without works. Romans 4:6 states, "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works." Baptism is a work, that if added to faith in
church, will send a man to Hell forever.

Faith + any work = NO faith at all

"Baptismal regeneration" is simply the heretical teaching that one must be baptised in order to be saved. It is a Satanic doctrine, which is responsible for sending billions to Hell. The Catholic
church REQUIRES it's members to be baptized in order to go to Heaven. So does the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, etc. Jesus NEVER told anyone to get baptized to be saved. No one in the Old Testament was ever baptized; yet, we read that Abraham was justified by faith, without works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3-5).


Conclusion

Please leave the
church of christ cult if you've been entangled in their doctrinal trap. They also deny the existence of a literal Heaven, the millennial reign of christ, the Rapture, and many other fundamental Bible teachings. The church of christ is bad news!!! They focus on baptism so much that the plain Biblical plan of salvation is obscured; thus, they have churchianity without churchianity. So many people go through the rituals and ceremonies of religion, but they never become born-again believers. They join a church, get baptized, sing in a choir, tithe, go through the motions; BUT, they don't know Jesus church as Saviour. They go through the outward form of religion, thinking that they are obeying God's plan of salvation; BUT, they do not have the change of heart, because they are trusting the church and the form and the ceremony and holding out faithful and many other works of men, instead of depending solely on Jesus church. Psalm 118:8 declares, "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man." I say to the church of christ the same thing which the Apostle Paul said to the church at Galatia, "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth"? (Galatians 3:1). O foolish church of christ, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth? You have erred after another Gospel (Galatians 1:6). The Biblical Gospel does NOT require baptism to be saved, nor does it require a person to forsake their sins. Such actions are "works," and then God would owe us salvation, which is unbiblical (Romans 4:4-5). Salvation is of God, paid for by the precious blood of Jesus. Our responsibility is to "Believe on the Lord Jesus church, and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:31)--and that's it!

iT SURE sounds like RCC .
 
StoveBolts said:
The sandbox I was describing... Do I need to build a case against you or do you see it yet?
It is your sandbox and you still do not make any sense.
 
There seems to be a certain "flexibility" with some in this thread concerning biblical issues. I've been confronted by mormons to, "Join together in the fight against sin from within and without. We have basically the same beliefs, we both use the bible for scripture and guidance and we both know and believe His resurrection was the salvation of all who believe."
My answer was always a brief and concise, "No"
For me to do so would become the "yeast in the lump" for tolerating one small doctrinal deviation, to tolerate some of the mormon's doctrines concerning biblical issues, or any other, leads to another, then another and so on until I've gotten so far from the truth I'll believe anything. The "Rock" is just that, a solid foundation that cannot be nudged this way and that. Getting away from that unmovable Rock one has no solid ground on which to stand.
I too believe most religions are peaceful. I too believe some can become militant. But being peaceful or violent doesn't serve as a path to the presence of God. Only Christ is the way, the truth and the life. Anyone that does not believe Christ is the Messiah cannot come in peace to the Father for they are at odds with whom He sent.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There is no flexibility here. It's a solid, concentrated focus that does not sway by tolerance of other doctrine. To do so may seem right but in the end it leads to destruction.
 
ol0 said:
First of all my original quote concerning the Church of Christ was in response to a ridiculous post of yours concerning witchcraft, and I was giving JM a tongue-in-cheek response that perhaps Oscar3 was correct that the Church of Christ was a cult.

as ridiculous as it may appear to you, you still said what you said.. tongue-in-cheek or not and yes, I knew what post of oscar you were refering to.

And what was my response? Do I need to re-post that t00? If you had an issue with my response to Oscar, then you should have kept it in Oscar's thread instead of spilling your garbage over a multitude of threads... But no, you start up another thread bashing the Church of Christ and I responed... yet you remain silent but continue with your slights here and there.

You have made many false accusations against me, even in this thread... and you don't even realize it because you don't listen to whay I say back to you... it's like you have an appitite to critisize and destroy under the premise of a loving god...

Wanna debate baptism one on one? You tell me what you believe baptism is and your charge against the Church of Christ in regard to baptism (including infant baptism if you want to go in that direction, I don't really care.), and I'll respond. If you don't want to do that, then shut up about what you "Think" the Church of Christ believes in regard to baptism.
 
Stovebolts,
Is all this in reference to the Boston Church of Christ, the International Church of Christ?
 
PotLuck said:
Stovebolts,
Is all this in reference to the Boston Church of Christ, the International Church of Christ?

I don't know much about the church of Christ, so I have spent a little time looking up church websites and not cult watch guides, but from what I have been reading, I am not liking what I am seeing....I will post more later
 
PotLuck said:
Stovebolts,
Is all this in reference to the Boston Church of Christ, the International Church of Christ?

Potluck,
In the "Church of Christ a Cult" thread, NOC brought this up and it was stated that we are not affiliated with the ICoC and in addition, I added the deciples of Christ just in case anyone wanted to bring them into the equation.

I'm just tired Solo's sublte remarks here and there on how he falsely portrays my beliefs and the beliefs of the congregation that I attend.
 
jgredline said:
I don't know much about the church of Christ, so I have spent a little time looking up church websites and not cult watch guides, but from what I have been reading, I am not liking what I am seeing....I will post more later

Javier,
if you don't like it, then state what you don't like. Otherwise, all your doing is spreading a feeling... and feelings are what rule a mob.
In other words, post what you don't like, or don't make a comment that you "Don't" like something...
 
Solo said:
Have you been born again?

If so, what is your testimony for the edification of those who have not yet been born again?

I don't know that I technically have a testimony. I can point to specific points in my life where I feel as though God has "slapped me on the back of the head" to wake me up in my complacency in my faith. But I don't know that I have what you would technically call a "testimony"

Can a person be saved by being baptized as an infant?

Does water baptism save a person? If so how? Please give scripture references.

Jesus instructs us to teach "all nations" and baptize them. I don't see how that is exclusive for adults?

David tells us in Psalm 51:5 that I was conceived and born into sin. Clearly Jesus tells us in Matthew 18 that children or little ones can believe in him. 1 Peter 3:21 speaks of baptism as something that saves us from our sins. Through baptism we put on the clean, holy robes of Christ’s righteousness (Galatians 3:27).

Baptism doesn't save, faith in Christ saves. Baptism is a means of grace. A means that the Holy Spirit uses to create and sustain that saving faith. Where in scripture does this say baptism should be confined to adults?

Can a person who is born again lose their salvation, or are they sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?

"Because of the Christian’s dual nature, God speaks to him in paradoxical statements. Because the Christian has a sinful nature, he needs the constant warning, “So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!†(1 Co 10:12). To the new man, however, Christ says, “My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me. l give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand†(Jn 10:27-28)."

Source
 
PotLuck said:
There seems to be a certain "flexibility" with some in this thread concerning biblical issues. I've been confronted by mormons to, "Join together in the fight against sin from within and without. We have basically the same beliefs, we both use the bible for scripture and guidance and we both know and believe His resurrection was the salvation of all who believe."
My answer was always a brief and concise, "No"
For me to do so would become the "yeast in the lump" for tolerating one small doctrinal deviation, to tolerate some of the mormon's doctrines concerning biblical issues, or any other, leads to another, then another and so on until I've gotten so far from the truth I'll believe anything. The "Rock" is just that, a solid foundation that cannot be nudged this way and that. Getting away from that unmovable Rock one has no solid ground on which to stand.
I too believe most religions are peaceful. I too believe some can become militant. But being peaceful or violent doesn't serve as a path to the presence of God. Only Christ is the way, the truth and the life. Anyone that does not believe Christ is the Messiah cannot come in peace to the Father for they are at odds with whom He sent.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There is no flexibility here. It's a solid, concentrated focus that does not sway by tolerance of other doctrine. To do so may seem right but in the end it leads to destruction.
PotLuck, I agree with you, and would never intentionally help a person along in their error.
The problem with a lot of what goes on here is people are being attacked for denmominational doctrines that aren't salvation issues, such as musical instruments and whatnot.
The reason I can't go along with those who 'correct' others on this board is because the manner in which they correct serves to push others away from God instead of offering them biblical instruction out of true compassion.
People are constantly being bitten and devoured in the name of 'Jesus'.
To me this is worse than the error they think they are correcting.
There seems to be some sort of fear that, 'If I treat people like human beings then i'm compromised and am not represnting Jesus'.
This is just another lie of satans in which to mischaracterize God so others will turn away.
Jesus told the pharisees, 'you travel over land and sea to win a single convert and then turn him into twice the son of hell that you are'.
We better be careful in 'how' we accuse others while using the name of God.
I can't endorse compromise, but I won't go along with those who try to 'beat the hell out of others' in the name of Jesus either.
That being worse than the former. It really should be stopped if this is a christian site.
Thats all, I need to take another hiadus ;-)
 
StoveBolts said:
Potluck,
In the "Church of Christ a Cult" thread, NOC brought this up and it was stated that we are not affiliated with the ICoC and in addition, I added the deciples of Christ just in case anyone wanted to bring them into the equation.

I'm just tired Solo's sublte remarks here and there on how he falsely portrays my beliefs and the beliefs of the congregation that I attend.

OK. I must say though that whether one has an orchestra or not makes no difference to salvation. I've known churches that do not allow women to wear lipstick and other such non-essential do's and don't's but still retain all the essential teachings especially in regard to Christ's deity.


"we are not affiliated with the ICoC"
cool
The ICoC has been questioned since it's inception and I can see why one should really be cautious if considering to align one's beliefs with theirs. It may be a better idea to simply find a less controversial church to attend.

If you want to open dialogue concerning baptism then it would probably be best to open another thread. That debate is a heavy issue in it's own right.
 
Potluck,
According to s o1o's own testimony, he states that he attends a CofC for meetings. He also states that the elders declared it biblical to worship with instruments, but, they still 'cater to them thar hard nosed ones' that insist on not having instruments.

What if I said, Woodside Bible Church (baptist) in Troy Mi has two services. One traditional and one contemporary. Is one better or worse than the other? What really dictates worship in "spirt and truth" ...anyway...

But did you read what he said earlier about me? The part about the ' temple and refusing to use instruments along with the snide..interesting..' comments he made? He made it sound like all churches of Christ believe that musical instruments are bad. Did I say that? Have I ever said that? NO! What I said is that I choose to attend a Church that does not use musical insturments. What in the world is wrong with that unless one is assuming that I'm bashing musical instruments in worship which simply isn't the case. My goodness, look at the post here in general where I give a link to a worhip service from Mars Hill (that solo was aware of I'm sure). If that's not minipulating for a reaction, then I'm not sure what is... Then he further goes to say that we,or I align ourselves with the RCC, athiests and muslims...

I'm tired of it.. Just plain tired of it.
 
StoveBolts said:
Potluck,
According to s o1o's own testimony, he states that he attends a CofC for meetings. He also states that the elders declared it biblical to worship with instruments, but, they still 'cater to them thar hard nosed ones' that insist on not having instruments.

What if I said, Woodside Bible Church (baptist) in Troy Mi has two services. One traditional and one contemporary. Is one better or worse than the other? What really dictates worship in "spirt and truth" ...anyway...

But did you read what he said earlier about me? The part about the ' temple and refusing to use instruments along with the snide..interesting..' comments he made? He made it sound like all churches of Christ believe that musical instruments are bad. Did I say that? Have I ever said that? NO! What I said is that I choose to attend a Church that does not use musical insturments. What in the world is wrong with that unless one is assuming that I'm bashing musical instruments in worship which simply isn't the case. My goodness, look at the post here in general where I give a link to a worhip service from Mars Hill (that solo was aware of I'm sure). If that's not minipulating for a reaction, then I'm not sure what is... Then he further goes to say that we,or I align ourselves with the RCC, athiests and muslims...

I'm tired of it.. Just plain tired of it.
Actually I have paid little or no attention to you or your posts, but you have just opened the door my friend. I suspect that you have much more to hide then just your personal pride problem. If you are a true believer then that part of you should appear eventually.
 
StoveBolts said:
Solo said:
You have no evidence that I have stated that the Church of Christ is a cult. You are guilty of false witness against a believer.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ht=#317986
Solo said:
I totally agree. Perhaps CoC is a cult like Oscar says.......[/b]

Seeds of doubt... it's accusatory without substance but leaves an impression on the minds of others.

I've done some of your homework.. now do your own.

talk about calling the kettle black... you don't even know how to say your sorry... but instead you try and justify your pride...

BTW, My first response was based on Mt. 7:2-5 out of sheer fear for the Lord. What scripture came to your mind upon your first post?
 
Alright.
Can we say each has had their say, each has tossed their bucket of grenades over the wall and can we now allow the dust to settle without further confrontation?
Each may say, "Well, if the other stops his attacks..." but that's not what I'm asking for, conditions for a cease fire.
I'm calling for an UNCONDITIONAL ceasefire by both. No, IFs no BUTs and no conditions.
 
PotLuck said:
Alright.
Can we then say each has had their say, each has tossed their bucket of grenades over the wall and can we now allow the dust to settle without further confrontation?
Each may say, "Well, if the other stops his attacks..." but that's not what I'm asking for, conditions for a cease fire.
I'm calling for an UNCONDITIONAL ceasefire by both. No, IFs no BUTs and no conditions.

That's fine, I don't have a problem with that. I think I've made my point and if I havn't, I probably never will.
 
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