Positional Accord

[netchaplain]

The position of the saint is what he is progressively manifesting within his walk, which position is Christ’s place before the Father—unalterable son-ship; and our remaining earthly time is used by God conforming us into the image His image—“from glory to glory” (2 Cor 3:18). Saints have forever gained heaven and its Company, and the manifestation of this becomes increasingly evident as the walk continues to mature, which walk has no bearing on the position other than learning from it and manifesting it (Jam 2:24 – “justified” here means to display or show, not produce). The “gain” of Christ (Himself) is the same for all reborn, but the gain in Christ (His walk of son-ship) accords with one’s maturity in Him (Eph 4:15)!

Maturity is increased only through advancing from “the principles of the doctrine of Christ” (Heb 6:1); and one will truly advance from these fundamentals according only to the capacity in which they are understood and become practical in the walk. It is a commonly accepted doctrine that unity with God now comes only “through faith” (Eph 2:8) in His Son; but it is yet well enough known that maturity in His Son primarily hinges upon understanding the permanency of this union (while fellowship grows), without which, results traversing no further than the foot of His Cross (saving faith, yet only little growth therein).
NC

​

​

Positional Accord​

The truths of Scripture are received and treated too much as mere information. The mind sees and enjoys them as something incomparably fine and beautiful, but there is lacking the sense that every ray of light is really lost or useless unless it makes its way through the pitcher by faith. That is, unless the vessel is controlled and colored by it, and that there is manifestly more likeness to the Lord Jesus and increasingly growing up into the measure of the stature of His fullness (Eph 4:13). The misfortune with many is being content with a success at their first start and being so elated by it that they are not set on going forward.

Although Jacob had reached the right standing in the land (Gen 32), yet he must go through a night of wrestling, he must be subdued before God—then at his wit’s end he exclaims, “I will not let thee go until thou bless me.” There must be this struggle with God, this breaking down of one’s own strength, in the presence of the Father, before there is simple dependence upon Him, or confidence. The more thoroughly I am made nothing before Him, the more confidence have I in Him that He must and will bless me.

Here it is that the believer learns the condition that suits the position; but many a one who has accepted the position is almost confounded when he is brought into the night of wrestling. This night is to introduce you into a new day. It is quite right to see and to accept the position in which the Father in His grace sets us; but the higher your position, the higher your condition must become, and the more you must be broken down to enter on, or be suited to your position. I have no doubt the night of wrestling takes many a one by surprise; they have rested more on the truth of their position than on Him who sets us there, and is making us like Himself because we are there.

I have no doubt that many are disappointed that after hearing with delight, and receiving their position as the truth of God, they are not more affected by it. The reason for this is that they rest too much in the position, and have not gathered the first fruits (thinking of God first—NC), and put them into a basket; that they have not yet acquainted themselves with the Lord Jesus; they have not drawn nearer to Him and recognized Him as the only One to keep them in their position.

There is a felt lack, along with the acceptance of the truth, because the believer is not nearer to the Lord Jesus; for if he were, he would have found that no flesh (human nature—NC) could glory there, and there he would have acquired a fresh vigor from Himself, adequate to sustain him in the “nigh” position (Psa 73:28; Jam 4:8) which had been revealed. The open firmament is the position of a bird; but what use would be that position if it had no wings? But wings must grow. The prodigal son is not told to come to the feast until he had the new clothes on. He not only hears of the position, but he is given a condition to suit it. The kiss does not give him the condition—it tells him of the Father’s heart, but he replies, “I am not worthy.” He is near enough to feel this, and then it is that he receives his new clothes (hyperbolically, the Lord Jesus—NC), fit for his father’s presence.

What is the good of a man being ennobled made a prince of, if he feels he has gained no moral or sensible acquisition by it? This is the disappointment which believers feel without being able to account for it; and they are subjected to nights of wrestling, because they have rested in their grand titles, instead of in the means of supporting their titles, which is dependence on, and ever deepening acquaintance and fellowship with the One who has conferred them.

- J B Stoney



Excerpt from MJS devotional for October 10:

“To know our position in the Lord Jesus is necessary so that we may understand His ways and rest in His means. Then, by processing through the years He slowly narrows the discrepancy between our heavenly position and our personal condition. Truth is received in the mind, assimilated in the heart, and manifested in the walk.” MJS

“First, the believer, like a bird, flies at once to the top and sees everything accomplished on his behalf, and then he, as it were, comes back and creeps up every inch of the way. It is like ascending a ladder of grace.” JBS
http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/

 

[for_his_glory]

We can gain information by reading the scriptures, but if we do not apply this information to our walk then we are stifling our growth in the knowledge of the Lord and to know His perfect will for us. Many say they know the Lord, but really only know His name as they have no position in Him.

 

[netchaplain]

We can gain information by reading the scriptures, but if we do not apply this information to our walk then we are stifling our growth in the knowledge of the Lord and to know His perfect will for us. Many say they know the Lord, but really only know His name as they have no position in Him.

Always enjoy our communication Sis, so thanks for your reply and comment! I agree, there are still those who "honor" Christ with their words (Mat 15:8) but have no rebirth and a new heart in Him!

Blessings FHG!

 

[GodsGrace]

The position of the saint is what he is progressively manifesting within his walk, which position is Christ’s place before the Father—unalterable son-ship; and our remaining earthly time is used by God conforming us into the image His image—“from glory to glory” (2 Cor 3:18). Saints have forever gained heaven and its Company, and the manifestation of this becomes increasingly evident as the walk continues to mature, which walk has no bearing on the position other than learning from it and manifesting it (Jam 2:24 – “justified” here means to display or show, not produce). The “gain” of Christ (Himself) is the same for all reborn, but the gain in Christ (His walk of son-ship) accords with one’s maturity in Him (Eph 4:15)!

Maturity is increased only through advancing from “the principles of the doctrine of Christ” (Heb 6:1); and one will truly advance from these fundamentals according only to the capacity in which they are understood and become practical in the walk. It is a commonly accepted doctrine that unity with God now comes only “through faith” (Eph 2:8) in His Son; but it is yet well enough known that maturity in His Son primarily hinges upon understanding the permanency of this union (while fellowship grows), without which, results traversing no further than the foot of His Cross (saving faith, yet only little growth therein).
NC

​

​

Positional Accord​

The truths of Scripture are received and treated too much as mere information. The mind sees and enjoys them as something incomparably fine and beautiful, but there is lacking the sense that every ray of light is really lost or useless unless it makes its way through the pitcher by faith. That is, unless the vessel is controlled and colored by it, and that there is manifestly more likeness to the Lord Jesus and increasingly growing up into the measure of the stature of His fullness (Eph 4:13). The misfortune with many is being content with a success at their first start and being so elated by it that they are not set on going forward.

Although Jacob had reached the right standing in the land (Gen 32), yet he must go through a night of wrestling, he must be subdued before God—then at his wit’s end he exclaims, “I will not let thee go until thou bless me.” There must be this struggle with God, this breaking down of one’s own strength, in the presence of the Father, before there is simple dependence upon Him, or confidence. The more thoroughly I am made nothing before Him, the more confidence have I in Him that He must and will bless me.

Here it is that the believer learns the condition that suits the position; but many a one who has accepted the position is almost confounded when he is brought into the night of wrestling. This night is to introduce you into a new day. It is quite right to see and to accept the position in which the Father in His grace sets us; but the higher your position, the higher your condition must become, and the more you must be broken down to enter on, or be suited to your position. I have no doubt the night of wrestling takes many a one by surprise; they have rested more on the truth of their position than on Him who sets us there, and is making us like Himself because we are there.

I have no doubt that many are disappointed that after hearing with delight, and receiving their position as the truth of God, they are not more affected by it. The reason for this is that they rest too much in the position, and have not gathered the first fruits (thinking of God first—NC), and put them into a basket; that they have not yet acquainted themselves with the Lord Jesus; they have not drawn nearer to Him and recognized Him as the only One to keep them in their position.

There is a felt lack, along with the acceptance of the truth, because the believer is not nearer to the Lord Jesus; for if he were, he would have found that no flesh (human nature—NC) could glory there, and there he would have acquired a fresh vigor from Himself, adequate to sustain him in the “nigh” position (Psa 73:28; Jam 4:8) which had been revealed. The open firmament is the position of a bird; but what use would be that position if it had no wings? But wings must grow. The prodigal son is not told to come to the feast until he had the new clothes on. He not only hears of the position, but he is given a condition to suit it. The kiss does not give him the condition—it tells him of the Father’s heart, but he replies, “I am not worthy.” He is near enough to feel this, and then it is that he receives his new clothes (hyperbolically, the Lord Jesus—NC), fit for his father’s presence.

What is the good of a man being ennobled made a prince of, if he feels he has gained no moral or sensible acquisition by it? This is the disappointment which believers feel without being able to account for it; and they are subjected to nights of wrestling, because they have rested in their grand titles, instead of in the means of supporting their titles, which is dependence on, and ever deepening acquaintance and fellowship with the One who has conferred them.

- J B Stoney



Excerpt from MJS devotional for October 10:

“To know our position in the Lord Jesus is necessary so that we may understand His ways and rest in His means. Then, by processing through the years He slowly narrows the discrepancy between our heavenly position and our personal condition. Truth is received in the mind, assimilated in the heart, and manifested in the walk.” MJS

“First, the believer, like a bird, flies at once to the top and sees everything accomplished on his behalf, and then he, as it were, comes back and creeps up every inch of the way. It is like ascending a ladder of grace.” JBS
http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/

Are you saying that if one does not believe in eternal security his walk is hampered??

 

[netchaplain]

Are you saying that if one does not believe in eternal security his walk is hampered??

Yes, and I much appreciate you pointing this out! I cannot think of any promises of God that one can stand on apart from understanding this doctrine. One can be in permanent union with God but growth in fellowship with Him can be minimal without being confident and convinced that Christ's redemption is forever. There are only two choices, believing what we do saves us or what Christ did saves us, and the conception of temporal salvation is always the result of being works based.

With this being the primary growth truth it's going to be the most difficult to grasp because of the Enemies deceptions. It can't hamper union, only growth in the union.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, and I much appreciate you pointing this out! I cannot think of any promises of God that one can stand on apart from understanding this doctrine. One can be in permanent union with God but growth in fellowship with Him can be minimal without being confident and convinced that Christ's redemption is forever. There are only two choices, believing what we do saves us or what Christ did saves us, and the conception of temporal salvation is always the result of being works based.

With this being the primary growth truth it's going to be the most difficult to grasp because of the Enemies deceptions. It can't hamper union, only growth in the union.

Hmmm.
I am confident and convinced that His redemption is forever as long as I remain IN HIM.

Do you believe that once one believes, it is no longer possible to leave God? Do you believe that if they do, they were never saved to begin with?

I've heard testimonies that would suggest the opposite of this. Do you know who Bart Ehrman is? I'm going to post his testimony.

I'd like to say that I don't feel my walk with God has been hampered and I've been a Christian for about 40 years.
I don't understand why NOT believing in eternal security would hamper a relationship with God.

Please let me know what you think of this YouTube video. (I've been listening to a lot of YouTube lately to see what's going on there). He speaks about this a lot...even referring to those that might think he was never really Christian. This is encapsulated...

 

[netchaplain]

Hmmm.
I am confident and convinced that His redemption is forever as long as I remain IN HIM.

Do you believe that once one believes, it is no longer possible to leave God? Do you believe that if they do, they were never saved to begin with?

This is a matter of understanding Philippians 2:13 - "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." It's more sensible to me to conclude that God has not worked in someone, than to conclude that He worked this in one and failed, which would be the thought if one claims to be in God and then claims to leave Him.

I'd like to say that I don't feel my walk with God has been hampered and I've been a Christian for about 40 years. I don't understand why NOT believing in eternal security would hamper a relationship with God.

That's how I understood it during the first 15 years of my 40 year Christian life and since then have been a little confused why this is not easier to understand generally. It would be like saying one could be reborn and then un-reborn, and thus it becomes more confusing the more the issue is dealt with.

Please let me know what you think of this YouTube video. (I've been listening to a lot of YouTube lately to see what's going on there). He speaks about this a lot...even referring to those that might think he was never really Christian. This is encapsulated...

There's not much to evaluate concerning someone who doesn't believe that Scripture is the Word of God (even though he falsely claimed to believe at one time). Both terms have the same results--never having believed but thought you did!

 

[for_his_glory]

You either believe and have faith in Christ while walking in all of God's promises, His commands and statures until the day of redemption or you believe in none of them. There is no fence riding, but only growth in the Lord as He wants us to be obedient to Him. If you are not growing then you stifle your walk with the Lord and will soon wither away from Him.

 

[netchaplain]

You either believe and have faith in Christ while walking in all of God's promises, His commands and statures until the day of redemption or you believe in none of them.

True, even though believers are eternally redeemed (in our spirit and soul but not yet in the body) it still requires time to learn to live in God's promises. But if this never be evidenced, there has been no redemption, because everyone saved will grow in Christ's image.

There is no fence riding, but only growth in the Lord as He wants us to be obedient to Him. If you are not growing then you stifle your walk with the Lord and will soon wither away from Him.

I believe the absence of spiritual growth in Christ evinces the absence of rebirth, considering God "work" in every believer (Phil 2:13).

Thanks for the reply and comments. God bless!

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a matter of understanding Philippians 2:13 - "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." It's more sensible to me to conclude that God has not worked in someone, than to conclude that He worked this in one and failed, which would be the thought if one claims to be in God and then claims to leave Him.

Sorry NC. Been busy.
Why can't we conclude that WE get to do some of the work?
I hear these days that God does everything...what do we get to do?
Philippians 2:13 is right, of course. The NT does not contradict itself.
I understand these verses to mean as Jesus said that He had to go away so that the Holy Spirit could come to us and be our helper.

You think it's more sensible to think that someone did not believe because God was not really working in them. What happened to free will? Do we have any left after salvation? IF God does EVERYTHING for us, then HE is responsible when we sin. Instead, if we understand that we retain our free will and that the Holy Spirit is a HELPER and not our puppet master, then we can understand why we sin and that it's OUR responsibility and not because GOD failed.

That's how I understood it during the first 15 years of my 40 year Christian life and since then have been a little confused why this is not easier to understand generally. It would be like saying one could be reborn and then un-reborn, and thus it becomes more confusing the more the issue is dealt with.

Yes, this born and unborn idea is making the rounds. We like to understand everything in a human way, but are spiritual matter so easily understood in a human way? 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us that it's not easy to understand spiritual things in a human way --- it speaks of the natural man that is not saved, but I liken this to our understanding of God also.

How would you explain John 15:1-6?
We are alive in Christ when we are connected to the vine (Jesus) because HE gives us the life.
If we become disconnected from the vine, we die. It matters not what we THINK, it matters what Jesus said.
John 15:6
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."

There's not much to evaluate concerning someone who doesn't believe that Scripture is the Word of God (even though he falsely claimed to believe at one time). Both terms have the same results--never having believed but thought you did!

How do you know he FALSELY claimed to believe at one time?
Can we see into a person's heart?
Maybe some, such as yourself, believe this because it's the only way to reconcile what they've come to believe?

Jesus Himself said we could believe for a time, temporarily, and then lose that faith.
Luke 8:13
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."

 

[netchaplain]

Why can't we conclude that WE get to do some of the work? I hear these days that God does everything...what do we get to do?
Philippians 2:13 is right, of course. The NT does not contradict itself. I understand these verses to mean as Jesus said that He had to go away so that the Holy Spirit could come to us and be our
helper.

We do the "work" but to me the issue is in where the work of God originates, which of course is Him, and He use us to show (manifest) the work. Similar to the illusion of a child standing on dad's feet to learn to dance, instead of dad standing on the feet. In the prior example the Spirit is choosing what to do and using us to do it. The latter exemplifies us choosing what to do and attempting to use the Spirit to do it, which is not the same.

Thus, it depends on what "work" and what the Spirit "helps" us do. To me the "work" in this passage is in reference to God's power to impart the "new nature" (new man), which by the Spirit causes in us "both will and to do His good pleasure," which cannot originate nor perpetuate from an unregenerate soul. Also, to me the word "Helper" (Comforter, Advocate) is used in the sense of enabling more than assisting.

You think it's more sensible to think that someone did not believe because God was not really working in them. What happened to free will? Do we have any left after salvation?

I know what you mean, but I think this is left to each's own understanding. Myself, I prefer God choosing what I "will" than myself, unless this isn't to what you're referring.

IF God does EVERYTHING for us

Not sure what you mean by "for us."

How would you explain John 15:1-6?
We are alive in Christ when we are connected to the vine (Jesus) because HE gives us the life.
If we become disconnected from the vine, we die. It matters not what we THINK, it matters what Jesus said.
John 15:6
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."

Let's use 15:2: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit . . ." I understand the phrase "in Me" is in the sense of professing to be in Me. There are those who are in Him by profession only, which will manifest itself by their discontinuing their profession and outward show of faith, honoring Him with their words but "their heart is far from Me" (Mat 15:8).

How do you know he FALSELY claimed to believe at one time?
Can we see into a person's heart?
Maybe some, such as yourself, believe this because it's the only way to reconcile what they've come to believe?

Jesus Himself said we could believe for a time, temporarily, and then lose that faith.
Luke 8:13
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."

It's my understanding that the sense is that they though they believed but eventually discovered they didn't. It's not sensible enough to think one can truly believe and eventually truly not believe. (they thought they believed but showed they didn't)

Gill: "There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to be in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace."

Appreciate your communication and manor of exchanging with one another! God bless.

 

[OzSpen]

This is a matter of understanding Philippians 2:13 - "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." It's more sensible to me to conclude that God has not worked in someone, than to conclude that He worked this in one and failed, which would be the thought if one claims to be in God and then claims to leave Him.

netchaplain,

If that's the case, then God was wasting paper in giving teaching about warnings of falling away from the faith. I think of passages such as:

• Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV) where Christians are warned that it is impossible for those who have 'fallen away' (committed apostasy) to be brought to repentance.
• Hebrews 10:26-31 (NIV). This passage could not be clearer that 'How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?' (v. 29, emphasis added). 'It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God' (v. 30). These people were definitely believers who had been sanctified by the shed blood of Jesus and 'trampled the Son of God underfoot' (v. 29).
• What about 1 Tim 1: 18-19 (NIV): 'Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith'.
• Matt 24:13 (NET): 'But the person who endures to the end will be saved'. Salvation is conditional on perseverance in the faith to the end (death).

So, I cannot endorse eternal security on an OSAS basis, but based on an enduring faith/trust and commitment to Jesus Christ alone for salvation until the end of human life.

Oz

 

[netchaplain]

So, I cannot endorse eternal security on an OSAS basis, but based on an enduring faith/trust and commitment to Jesus Christ alone for salvation until the end of human life.
Oz

There's no doubt of one's rebirth if it is shown there was evidence of faithfulness to God until death, for discontinuation evinces the absence of rebirth. But as you may agree, walking in the faith of salvation does not effect rebirth, it only manifests it.

Concerning the passages you've presented (which are among the best examples on this issue), I've come to the understanding they and all similar passages only appear to support but do not confirm loss of redemption. For example, Hebrews 6:4-6 is only a supposition that "if they shall fall away." The chapter merely demonstrates the impossibility of anyone being saved twice ("again" v 6), i.e. if one saved could loose their salvation they could never again be saved, because it would require Christ being sacrificed again "to themselves." Meaning the power of His crucifixion to a soul would have to take place again within, and no soul can be crucified more than once.

Also, there is no answer to the conflicting idea that how a soul could even loose the desire for salvation when this is the very thing God is "working" to ensure it doesn't happen (Phil 2:13), which would leave only two alternatives; that God either did not work within (Scripture confirms He "works" in everyone reborn); or that He failed to succeed in it (impossible).

One of my favorite opinions on this is from Albert Barnes (1798 – 1870), but if you don't use commentators or like reading much, this will not interest you and you will have only your own understanding to go by. It is well worth anyone taking the time to check all these passages with at least this theologian (John Gill 1697 – 1771 is my most favorite):
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/hebrews-6.html

 

[WIP]

Please note:

This topic can and does seem to bring out the worst in people. I will kindly remind everyone that the goal is not to prove each other wrong but to discuss the various differences of understanding while retaining unity in the Church and not bringing division. As Paul instructed the Romans, "Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men." Romans 12:16-18 NKJV

 

[OzSpen]

There's no doubt of one's rebirth if it is shown there was evidence of faithfulness to God until death, for discontinuation evinces the absence of rebirth. But as you may agree, walking in the faith of salvation does not effect rebirth, it only manifests it.

Concerning the passages you've presented (which are among the best examples on this issue), I've come to the understanding they and all similar passages only appear to support but do not confirm loss of redemption. For example, Hebrews 6:4-6 is only a supposition that "if they shall fall away." The chapter merely demonstrates the impossibility of anyone being saved twice ("again" v 6), i.e. if one saved could loose their salvation they could never again be saved, because it would require Christ being sacrificed again "to themselves." Meaning the power of His crucifixion to a soul would have to take place again within, and no soul can be crucified more than once.

Also, there is no answer to the conflicting idea that how a soul could even loose the desire for salvation when this is the very thing God is "working" to ensure it doesn't happen (Phil 2:13), which would leave only two alternatives; that God either did not work within (Scripture confirms He "works" in everyone reborn); or that He failed to succeed in it (impossible).

One of my favorite opinions on this is from Albert Barnes (1798 – 1870), but if you don't use commentators or like reading much, this will not interest you and you will have only your own understanding to go by. It is well worth anyone taking the time to check all these passages with at least this theologian (John Gill 1697 – 1771 is my most favorite):
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/hebrews-6.html

netchaplain,

That's a standard response from those who do not believe one can fall away from the faith, especially your denial of what Heb 6:4-6 teaches.

How can a person shipwreck his/her faith if faith didn't exist beforehand?

As for not reading commentaries, I've read them in droves and have a good sample in my personal library. What caused you to write in your response to me: 'if you don't use commentators or like reading much, this will not interest you and you will have only your own understanding to go by'?

I'm perplexed what would cause you to contemplate making such a statement. I have a PhD in NT.

Oz

 

[netchaplain]

netchaplain,

That's a standard response from those who do not believe one can fall away from the faith, especially your denial of what Heb 6:4-6 teaches.

How can a person shipwreck his/her faith if faith didn't exist beforehand?

As for not reading commentaries, I've read them in droves and have a good sample in my personal library. What caused you to write in your response to me: 'if you don't use commentators or like reading much, this will not interest you and you will have only your own understanding to go by'?

I'm perplexed what would cause you to contemplate making such a statement. I have a PhD in NT.

Oz

I understand how the way I phrased that comment could easily be taken in the unintended way, but I didn't mean it in that sense, so sorry for not being more careful with my choice of expressions. I believe most do not use commentaries so I wanted to try to avoid offense by mentioning it in that way. My intention was to mean "if you're one who does not use commentaries."

I appreciate your manor of expression concerning this and now I understand's WIP's warning which I was a little confused about, which I also believe we have not been doing, except for my careless comment. Thank you too WIP for how you handled that!

As for the subject, I see there are only two issues. Those who profess faith but eventually manifest they have not possessed it by their discontinuance in what they profess; and those who profess faith and manifest they possess remaining in what they profess. As we know, time always reveals the truth because false professors always apostatize.

Thanks for the kindness you maintain in your communications and for your patience with me! God bless.

 

[OzSpen]

As for the subject, I see there are only two issues. Those who profess faith but eventually manifest they have not possessed it by their discontinuance in what they profess; and those who profess faith and manifest they possess remaining in what they profess. As we know, time always reveals the truth because false professors always apostatize.

Thank you, netchaplain, for your amicable conversation with me. I sincerely appreciate this.

That parable of the sower (Mk 4:1-20) gives several options for when the message is sown.

As I see it, there are three issues:

1. Those who profess faith and are enthusiastic for Christ, but it's not genuine and they fade away with no further interest in Christianity (Matt 7:21-23; 1 John 2:19 NIV).

2. Those who have genuine faith but for any number of reasons commit apostasy (fall away). See Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31; 1 Tim 1:18-19);

3. Those who have genuine faith and persevere in that faith until the end of life (John 5:24; 10:27-29; 2 Pet 1:10).

Could it be that you favour the Calvinistic explanation? I know that I favour the Reformed Arminian view, as the Scriptures above indicate.

Oz

 

[netchaplain]

Thank you, netchaplain, for your amicable conversation with me. I sincerely appreciate this.

That parable of the sower (Mk 4:1-20) gives several options for when the message is sown.

As I see it, there are three issues:

1. Those who profess faith and are enthusiastic for Christ, but it's not genuine and they fade away with no further interest in Christianity (Matt 7:21-23; 1 John 2:19 NIV).

2. Those who have genuine faith but for any number of reasons commit apostasy (fall away). See Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31; 1 Tim 1:18-19);

3. Those who have genuine faith and persevere in that faith until the end of life (John 5:24; 10:27-29; 2 Pet 1:10).

Could it be that you favour the Calvinistic explanation? I know that I favour the Reformed Arminian view, as the Scriptures above indicate.

Oz

Thank you too Oz for your fellowship!

 

[GodsGrace]

We do the "work" but to me the issue is in where the work of God originates, which of course is Him, and He use us to show (manifest) the work. Similar to the illusion of a child standing on dad's feet to learn to dance, instead of dad standing on the feet. In the prior example the Spirit is choosing what to do and using us to do it. The latter exemplifies us choosing what to do and attempting to use the Spirit to do it, which is not the same.

Sorry this reply took so long.
The whole question of hearing the Holy Spirit comes into play here.
I've never found this easy. For instance, I went through the book of Mathew with some girlfriends of mine (catholic BTW) and I never understood if it was ME that wanted to do this or if it was the Holy Spirit calling. The way I understand it is that if we do anything for God, it's always the Holy Spirit prodding us on. If I had to sit and wait for me to understand the distinction, I'd never do anything.

As to the child on the father's feet: This is actually a great analogy, but it proves MY point! If we're on father's feet, the HE makes the misstep. Instead if father teaches us to dance and we sin, it's US making the misstep.

I've been saying this forever...if we want to say that everything we do depends on God, then we have to make Him responsible for our sins too.

We can only depend on God for strength in not sinning.

Thus, it depends on what "work" and what the Spirit "helps" us do. To me the "work" in this passage is in reference to God's power to impart the "new nature" (new man), which by the Spirit causes in us "both will and to do His good pleasure," which cannot originate nor perpetuate from an unregenerate soul. Also, to me the word "Helper" (Comforter, Advocate) is used in the sense of enabling more than assisting.

Agreed.
I'm not sure I see the difference between "enabling" and " assisting"...to me they mean the same which is why we many times agree but use different words.

I know what you mean, but I think this is left to each's own understanding. Myself, I prefer God choosing what I "will" than myself, unless this isn't to what you're referring.

I was asking you if you believe in free will.
Your answer seems to be that you don't. It's exactly what I was referring to.

If we don't have free will, then God is just using us and we are not autonomous persons with the will to love God or not. If we're forced to love God (through whatever mechanism) then it's not real love. Real love is free. Can an almighty God desire love from His creatures that is not real? Or that HE manufactured in some way (such as in the Calvinistic understanding of "free will" in that God tricks us into believing it's OUR will when really it's HIM just making us want what He wants - a very tricky God indeed if this were true!)

Let's use 15:2: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit . . ." I understand the phrase "in Me" is in the sense of professing to be in Me. There are those who are in Him by profession only, which will manifest itself by their discontinuing their profession and outward show of faith, honoring Him with their words but "their heart is far from Me" (Mat 15:8).

I agree with this.
Also, I see the answer in John 15:5 -- We need to ABIDE IN HIM,,,live with Him, in order to bear fruit. I know persons that go to church every Sunday like clockwork but understand nothing of being IN HIM. I think we agree on this.

It's my understanding that the sense is that they though they believed but eventually discovered they didn't. It's not sensible enough to think one can truly believe and eventually truly not believe. (they thought they believed but showed they didn't)

Jesus Himself said that they BELIEVED FOR A WHILE, but it was temporary.
Luke 8:13
I'm not ready to debate with Jesus!
If they believed for a while, it means they were saved for a while and then they fell away...due to temptation, adversity or any other reason.

Gill: "There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to be in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace."

Appreciate your communication and manor of exchanging with one another! God bless.[/QUOTE]

The branches that are on the vine are fed by the vine, which is Jesus.
Those who have only a historical belief in Him, are NOT a part of the vine...they are not branches.

I'd say that there is only one type of branch...the type that abides in Christ and keeps on abiding in Christ till the end of their life.

Luke 8:13 is referring to a branch that was attached to the vine FOR A WHILE, but then no longer desired to ABIDE IN CHRIST and so were detached from the vine.

 

[netchaplain]

Sorry this reply took so long.
The whole question of hearing the Holy Spirit comes into play here.
I've never found this easy. For instance, I went through the book of Mathew with some girlfriends of mine (catholic BTW) and I never understood if it was ME that wanted to do this or if it was the Holy Spirit calling. The way I understand it is that if we do anything for God, it's always the Holy Spirit prodding us on. If I had to sit and wait for me to understand the distinction, I'd never do anything.

You can take all the time you need, that's OK! I agree, God teaches us to "walk in the Spirit," because we live in Him (Gal 5:25). Of course this comes from studying His Word and learning it from Him how to "please" God, from whom we continually receive the "desire to do His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). I believe the Father imparts the desire for the doing, and His Spirit imparts the how-to through the Scriptures (1 Cor 2:13).

As to the child on the father's feet: This is actually a great analogy, but it proves MY point! If we're on father's feet, the HE makes the misstep. Instead if father teaches us to dance and we sin, it's US making the misstep.

I've been saying this forever...if we want to say that everything we do depends on God, then we have to make Him responsible for our sins too.

We can only depend on God for strength in not sinning.

I'm of the same understanding too, the sin is ours and any true goodness is God using us. Here's something that relates to what I mean:

IMITATING IS IMITATION​

"For to me to live is Christ" (Philippians 1:21).

Once we learn the truth of our union with the Lord Jesus and of the Holy Spirit's indwelling, any attempt to imitate Christ will be seen for what it is: unscriptural, and futile.

"Our Father is going to teach us, mainly through personal failure, that the life we live is the life of our Lord Jesus alone. The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.’”

"The end of Christ's incarnation, death and resurrection was to prepare and form a holy nature and frame for us in Him, to be communicated to us by union and fellowship with Him; and not to be able to produce in ourselves the first originals of such a holy nature by our own endeavors.

"The believer's true education is in the growth of Christ within. The Church's real ministry is not multitudinous public services, so-called, but the forming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the lives of His people; the reproduction of Christ; epistles made alive by the Holy Spirit, to be seen and read of all men." -C.A.F

"There is no answer to infidelity like the life of the Lord Jesus displayed through the Christian. Nothing puts the madness of the infidel and the folly of the superstitious more to shame and silence than the humble, quiet, devoted walk of a thorough-going, heavenly-minded, and divinely-taught believer.

"But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you" (2 Thessalonians 3:3).