Oh no. There are many of the church in heaven prior to 1 Cor 15.
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thethinker
Member
Paul likened the Galatians (the Jewish believers) to "children" under the law, and then to "[mature] sons" after receiving the Spirit (Galatians 4:1-6). Therefore, your argument fails to show that the Church began with the giving of the Spirit. The Church did NOT begin with the giving of the Spirit. The giving of the Spirit was the Church's "rite of passage" from child to adult son.
"Now that you are [adult] sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts crying, 'Abba, Father.' "
The Greek word "son" means "adult son." The Church went from a child under the law to an adult son in the Spirit.
So, I ask you again: Where is it explicitly said that the Church began at Pentecost? I contend that you have made an invalid inference.
thethinker
Member
What do you mean? Paul said that the dead will be raised incorruptible and the living will be changed in the LAST trumpet.
What time period is 1 Cor 15:52-55 speaking of when talking about death our last enemy being destroyed in 1 Cor 15:26, and 1 Cor 15:54 stating that "Death" is swallowed up in victory. There will be no more death after this, and this occurs at the end of the millennium.
As I've said in previous posts, if there is a last trump, by necessity there must be prior trumps. The proof is show to John seeing saints before the throne in heaven in Rev 4:2, 4:6, 7:9, and 14:1.
Thanks.
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farouk
Member
The end of Matthew 28 and the beginning of Acts make it clear that a new dispensation, when the Spirit would dwell in power among the followers of the Lord Jesus, was to begin.
1 Corinthians 10.32 makes it clear there are three groups of people: Jews, Gentiles and the church of God. The church is thus not a hybrid sort of synagogue or an exclusively Gentile construction, but rather distinct from both Israel and the nations, but made up of those believers in the Lord Jesus who were converted out of those backgrounds.
thethinker, Sir: it may be that among 'Messianic' circles, and among radical proponents of Reformed teaching, that you will find those that would claim that Israel and the church are supposedly the same; but most of the Christians who come to this site would probably identify with the New Testament character of the church, rather than regarding it as a supposed entity continued from the Old Testament.
Otherwise stated, as in the ToS: "We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ."; these truths being revealed and developed in the New Testament.
1 Corinthians 10.32 makes it clear there are three groups of people: Jews, Gentiles and the church of God. The church is thus not a hybrid sort of synagogue or an exclusively Gentile construction, but rather distinct from both Israel and the nations, but made up of those believers in the Lord Jesus who were converted out of those backgrounds.
thethinker, Sir: it may be that among 'Messianic' circles, and among radical proponents of Reformed teaching, that you will find those that would claim that Israel and the church are supposedly the same; but most of the Christians who come to this site would probably identify with the New Testament character of the church, rather than regarding it as a supposed entity continued from the Old Testament.
Otherwise stated, as in the ToS: "We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ."; these truths being revealed and developed in the New Testament.
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thethinker
Member
Many saints were resurrected when Jesus was resurrected (Matthew 27:51-53). They would have ascended with Him the forty days later. I believe that it is these that should return with Him in the LAST trumpet. I deny that there is a millennium of any kind.
farouk
Member
Revelation 20.4-6
thethinker
Member
A new dispensation does NOT imply a new people. It implies that God's people are under a new dispensation.
This is poor exegesis. It may read thus,
"Give no offense to Jews and Greeks, that is, the church of God."
thethinker, Sir: it may be that among 'Messianic' circles, and among radical proponents of Reformed teaching, that you will find those that would claim that Israel and the church are supposedly the same; but most of the Christians who come to this site would probably identify with the New Testament character of the church, rather than regarding it as a supposed entity continued from the Old Testament.[/quote]Your view was invented in the mid 1800s. Did you know this?
Are you saying that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were not "genuine" believers and not saved? Are you saying that Spirit birth and receiving the Spirit are the same? If so, then you are wrong, for Isaac was born of the Spirit (Galatians 4:29), but did not receive the Spirit. Spirit birth existed BEFORE Pentecost. Jesus said,
"That which IS born of he Spirit IS Spirit."
Paul CLEARLY said that Christ DIED FOR THE CHURCH. Christ died for a PRE-EXISTING body!
thethinker
Member
Where does Revelation 20:4-6 speak about a millennium on earth? ALL thrones in John's visions are seen IN HEAVEN.
I'm not sure of dates and times of them of Matthew 27:51-53 and their being caught up and I would just be speculating, but there are the 24 elders and 4 beasts of Rev Chapter Four that are round about and in the midst of the throne redeemed from out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation present with Jesus prior to tribulation. You may not call the thousand years of Christ's reign with them as the millennium but that's just a descriptive word. I may be wrong, but don't you go with Pretertism, and if so we're just at odds with Revelation. Thanks.
thethinker
Member
Hs
About the millennium: John saw the souls of them that were beheaded sitting upon thrones. Now, ALL thrones in John's visions are seen IN HEAVEN. There is not one scintilla of evidence that the millennium is on earth. The millennialists do not claim that the thrones are explicitly said to be on earth. This is based upon their interpretation that the vision of Christ riding a white horse in chapter 19 is a reference to His coming to earth. But it explicitly says that he was seen riding a white horse IN HEAVEN. It says NOTHING about Him descending from heaven to the earth. The scene is IN HEAVEN.
Furthermore, Christ is seen judging while sitting on a white cloud (14:14-16). Yet we are constantly told that He will judge from an earthly throne in Jerusalem. So, the Revelation says NOTHING about Christ judging from an earthly throne. The Council of Ephesus correctly condemned Premillennialism as a "superstitious aberration" in AD 431.
I think it was necessary that they be caught up because those who were resurrected after Christ was resurrected could no more die again than Christ could die again.
About the millennium: John saw the souls of them that were beheaded sitting upon thrones. Now, ALL thrones in John's visions are seen IN HEAVEN. There is not one scintilla of evidence that the millennium is on earth. The millennialists do not claim that the thrones are explicitly said to be on earth. This is based upon their interpretation that the vision of Christ riding a white horse in chapter 19 is a reference to His coming to earth. But it explicitly says that he was seen riding a white horse IN HEAVEN. It says NOTHING about Him descending from heaven to the earth. The scene is IN HEAVEN.
Furthermore, Christ is seen judging while sitting on a white cloud (14:14-16). Yet we are constantly told that He will judge from an earthly throne in Jerusalem. So, the Revelation says NOTHING about Christ judging from an earthly throne. The Council of Ephesus correctly condemned Premillennialism as a "superstitious aberration" in AD 431.
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farouk
Member
thethinker: I would refer you in a friendly way to the Scriptures already quoted. The section of the ToS referred to above, contains truths revealed in the New Testament rather than the Old. A recurring theme of the Epistle to the Hebrews is that what is in the New Testament is 'better' than what is in the Old.
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said. Dear brother, what is your opinion of the following location; to me the angel comes to earth because Satan sure isn't in heaven deceiving nations; he was cast out back in Rev 12:9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Now wait just a minute Eugene, what about them that were beheaded in Rev 20:4? They were caught up to heaven to reign with reign with Christ for those thousand years.
Next the following scenario shows Satan deceiving nations on the earth to attack saints born to God during the thousand years on earth. God just cast fire from heaven upon them and makes crispy critters out of them.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Now where are we in time here? Isn’t this the end of the thousand year reign in heaven of Christ with His saints?
turnorburn
Member
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."--Rev. 20:11-15.
Says here the earth and heaven fled away and there was found no place for them..
tob
Says here the earth and heaven fled away and there was found no place for them..
tob
Hey brother, doesn't this occur after the thousand years?
turnorburn
Member
The thinker was talking about the judgment so i posted that text where it says the heaven and earth fled away from Jesus when He is sitting on the great white throne..
tob
should have explained myself better..
tob
should have explained myself better..
thethinker
Member
of chapter 20 also
1. In verse 5 it says, "Then He who sits upon the throne said...." The phrase, "He who sits upon the throne" is ALWAYS the Father, and is distinguished from Christ.
Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits upon the throne AND to the Lamb (5:13).
2. In verse 6 the One sitting upon the throne says of the one who overcomes, "I will be his God, and he shall be My son." This proves that the One who sits upon the great white throne is the Father, for men are NOT Christ's sons. They are His brothers.
There is no verse anywhere in the Revelation which says that Christ will judge from an earthly throne. Rather, we are told that He thrusts His sickle while sitting upon a cloud (14:14-16).
But the one who is seen sitting upon the throne throughout the Revelation is the Father. The language of chapter 20 also indicates that it is the Father and NOT Christ who sits upon the great white throne.
1. In verse 5 it says, "Then He who sits upon the throne said...." The phrase, "He who sits upon the throne" is ALWAYS the Father, and is distinguished from Christ.
Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits upon the throne AND to the Lamb (5:13).
2. In verse 6 the One sitting upon the throne says of the one who overcomes, "I will be his God, and he shall be My son." This proves that the One who sits upon the great white throne is the Father, for men are NOT Christ's sons. They are His brothers.
There is no verse anywhere in the Revelation which says that Christ will judge from an earthly throne. Rather, we are told that He thrusts His sickle while sitting upon a cloud (14:14-16).
He Judges from His throne on Earth.
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32
For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, John 5:22
Jesus Christ comes to earth at the end of the age to gather His people at the resurrection and Rapture.
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 14:10
JLB
How can that be? John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. When does this begin that Jesus puts down all principalities and power?
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Who are we speaking of here? Compare Rev 1:4 “Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come.”
Next let’s add Isa 9:6-7 “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end." Isn’t this Jesus ruling?
Thanks.
jasoncran
Member
nope, all revalations in the book of revalations must be jesus. all these visions are too close to the visions of Daniel, Ezekiel and also isiah and moses. all of those which jesus said aren't of the father. therefore the son is on the throne in said visions.