Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[dirtfarmer]

Underline: Rapture on the Day of the Lord

Matt 24:42-44 NIV “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

1 Thess 5:2 NIV for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

2 Pet 3:10 NIV But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Underline: The Day of the Lord is rapture and also God's wrath.

Isa 13:9 NIV See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

Eze 7:19 NIV “ ‘They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will be treated as a thing unclean. Their silver and gold will not be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath. It will not satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs, for it has caused them to stumble into sin.

Zep 1:18 NIV Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD's wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth.

Zep 2:2 NIV before the decree takes effect and that day passes like windblown chaff, before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, before the day of the LORD's wrath comes upon you.

Rev 6:15-17 NIV Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Underline: Rapture on the Day of the Lord after sixth seal.

Isa 13:10 NIV The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Joel 2:30-31 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Joel 3:14-15 NIV Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

Matt 24:29 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

Mark 13:24 NIV "But in those days, following that distress, "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Acts 2:19-20 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

2 Pet 3:10 NIV But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Underline: Heavens rolled up like a scroll, fig tree, nonbelievers hiding in caves.

Isa 2:19 NIV People will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from the fearful presence of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.

Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

hello Heb 13:8, dirtfarmer

Read 1 Thess. 5:4

 

[daninthelionsden]

The Last Trump is not sounded until Rev 11:15. This still doesn't point to pre-trib.......points to mid-trib at best.

 

[daninthelionsden]

To the wicked/lost ...even if you were to place an exact time and date, they would still be taken by surprise....they won't/can't properly interpret/believe/act on scripture because they are in darkness due to unbelief. That portion has no bearing on the timing.

 

[Roro1972]

Job 21:30 NIV that the wicked are spared from the day of calamity, that they are delivered from the day of wrath?

some how this is wrong
here below it is right
30. That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
your version says spared FROM the day of wrath and your version says they are delivered FROM the day
of wrath
Notice the verse I posted there is no FROM in it. makes a big difference.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Underline: Rev 11:15 The seven trumpets and the "last trumpet" are not the same. Trumpets and bowls are God's wrath, but believers are not appointed to wrath.

Job 21:30 NIV that the wicked are spared from the day of calamity, that they are delivered from the day of wrath?

Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Dan 12:1-2 NIV "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. 2Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matt 3:12 NIV His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

John 3:36 NIV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

Rom 5:9 NIV Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Eph 2:3 NIV All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

1 Thess 1:10 NIV and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1 Thess 5:9 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The wrath is the second death not the first death. Christ said every man will die the first death. He told us not to concern ourselves with the first death but the second death. Pre-trib is all about avoiding the first death as if it were the second death. Pre-trib is in error and disobedience right from the get go. Wrath = 2nd death and THAT is what we are spared from. You can't be so afraid of the first death that you bend the entire bible to pacify that fear. Christ NEVER promised you deliverance from the first death. He warned you that following Him could actually subject you to the first death sooner than later if you incur the wrath of man like all the prophets, the disciples and many many martyrs throughout history....even today....and in the future. Why do you insist on being saved from the first death when you were specifically told not to concern yourself so much with it???? The only way to avoid it is if you happen to be alive upon His return......on the last day.

 

[smaller]

Underline: Rev 11:15 The seven trumpets and the "last trumpet" are not the same. Trumpets and bowls are God's wrath, but believers are not appointed to wrath.

Job 21:30 NIV that the wicked are spared from the day of calamity, that they are delivered from the day of wrath?

Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Dan 12:1-2 NIV "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. 2Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matt 3:12 NIV His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

John 3:36 NIV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

Rom 5:9 NIV Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Eph 2:3 NIV All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

1 Thess 1:10 NIV and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1 Thess 5:9 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's run the above through a scriptural reality:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Do we see a wicked one there? I certainly do. Did Paul have evil present with him? Yep! Romans 7:21.

When we pray, God, deliver us from evil, this is NOT a prayer to deliver us from the evil of other people, but of our own.

The Sword of God, that infamous Flaming Sword, from His Own Mouth, CUTS the two parties above, precisely in HALF.

 

[JLB]

Underline: The hour of rapture, twinkling of an eye, sunset - http://www.torahcalendar.com/SUNSET.asp

Underline: Jesus comes as a thief to nonbelievers, not believers. Believers will know. Matt 24 & 1 Thess 5 Idiom..

Once you see the plain words of scriptures, concerning the resurrection/rapture, which occurs at His coming, then and only then will you have a foundation from which to build a sound end time doctrine.

These two passages from 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2, deal directly with this subject and must not be ignored.


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


The rapture/resurrection is one simultaneous event, that happens at His coming.

The resurrected ones are caught up, then the raptured ones are caught up together with them.

At that moment, all of His people are caught up together with Him in the clouds, to meet Him in the air.

Their are no more of His people left on planet earth.

All are with Him, in the air... Therefore comfort one another with these words.


and again


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


The coming of the Lord to gather His people, is the same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.
• the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Here are the facts:

At the coming of the Lord, all His people are gathered together, to meet the Lord in the air.
At the coming of the Lord, the wicked are destroyed; the antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His coming.


All other scripture concerning the end time, and the rapture, must align with these two irrefutable truths.



JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Corrie Ten Boom had this to say about the pre-trib rapture..

During World War 2 Corrie Ten Boom and her family were arrested by the Germans for the crime of helping Jewish people hide. She was sent to a concentration camp and endured great hardships, but she survived.

In 1974 Corrie Ten Boom wrote the letter shown below to warn Christians about the false teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture. This teaching is very popular in America, even though there is no scriptural basis for it. Many believers have bought into it because they have heard it taught by their pastor or by other Christian leaders, but we must study the scriptures for ourselves.

God has promised to deliver His people from the wrath of God, which will be poured out near the end of the seven-year tribulation period.

However, there is a big difference between the persecution of Christians and the wrath of God. God never promised us that we would be protected from persecution. In fact, He promised us we would be persecuted just as Jesus was also persecuted.
The pre-tribulation rapture is a dangerous teaching because it will cause believers to be confused and even abandon their faith when they see tremendous persecution coming upon them during the tribulation. Many will fall away at that time, which is also foretold in the Bible. It is called the apostasy. I am posting Corrie Ten Boom’s letter to help warn people while there is still time.

CORRIE TEN BOOM’S RAPTURE WARNING:

The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers.

Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

We may have been the Lord’s only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world” (John 16:33) We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting “Hallelujah! Hallelujah!” for I have found where it is written that Jesus said,

“He that overcomes shall inherit all things: and I will be His God, and he shall be My son.” (Revelation 21:7)
​

This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick.
“Yes, the Lord will heal me,” Betsy said with confidence.

She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy’s death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, “Don’t worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured.” Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

“We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes, to stand and not faint.”
​

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next.

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus’ sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, “Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation.” Then I write it down and learn it by heart.
When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, “Nothing could be any worse than today.” But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. (1 Peter 4:14-15)
​

I found myself saying, “Hallelujah! Because I am suffering (for the name of Christ), Jesus is glorified!”
In America, the churches sing, “Let the congregation escape tribulation”, but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Continued..

https://z3news.com/w/corrie-ten-boom-beware-false-teaching-pretribulation-rapture/

 

[Randy]

I like 'dirtfarmer's' intro so I'll pinch it
calvin here,
If there were to be one scriptural passage that would nail the question it would have to be revelation 20:4.
Having one's head chopped off , having one's ability / freedom to buy or sell would be tribulation mega big time.
Also, those who don't take part in this first resurrection will have to wait for the second and face the very real prospect of the second death...a fate that is not reserved for the Christian.

It seems to me that there are two levels of tribulation mentioned in scripture;
1 John 16:31,32,33. here the tribulation is fairly mild (relatively speaking) and seems to target disciples of Christ only.

2.Mark 13:19 The trbulation of those days will be global in effect. It seems that it will be a final purging and wake up call for humanity.
Christians at that time will have a very important role to play. People will be looking for reasons why, hope for the moment, hope for tomorrow, and seeking to find their way back to the Lord.

Well that is as I see it anyway, so I don't see a pre triib gathering of the Lord's disciples as being a credible rival to a post tribulation gathering.

If you just focus on what was taught and well understood about the resurrection:It is on the last day. Jesus will send out His angels to gather the elect from the ends of the heavens. The resurrection of us all. And I will add a bodily resurrection.

Now ponder the 1st resurrection. And those who are not raised on that day.

Randy

 

[JLB]

My foundation is just fine in post 1680. Thanks JLB.

The Day of the Lord is when the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture occurs, in which the wicked and the Antichrist will be destroyed.

Amen!


JLB

 

[smaller]

Some basics.

Our body, in scriptural terms, is dust/clay/earth. Course through the obvious here:

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Do we sleep in the dust? Assuredly, from the scriptural perspective, this is true.

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Now, let's have a look at Paul:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Do you NOT KNOW that the messenger of Satan is the spirit of slumber? Romans 11:8. Why? Because Satan STEALS the Word from our hearts and causes us to SLUMBER in the body. Mark 4:15.

Now, watch closely:

Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Look at Daniel's statement again, in the LIGHT of the above. What do you see?

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

IF you can't see the problem, right here, right now, you are in fact ASLEEP in the dust.