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Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

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If God does NOT give me the choice to believe, HOW could He possibly hold me responsible for my sins? If HE causes me to be lost because I'm not one of the "chosen" ones, then how could I possibly deserve hell from a JUST God??
What ever He does is Godly... we might not understand His actions or inaction's as Godly but they are...

images
 
I think this is where misinterpretation of thoughts come into play. I see what your saying wondering. But I also think I see what atpollard is seeing/thinking.

God does not command us to believe, as in we have to, even if we don't want to(which doesn't make sense really). But He does command it AS the only way to receive eternal life.

By definition a commandment is a "authoritative prescription". It is a conditional statement, without the ability of the one receiving it to alter it. The commandment is to believe, so we can either obey or disobey. We don't have the choice to "opt out" of the program. :)

Reminds me of a sad time when our church "split". I tried to talk them out of it, but too many hot heads. They took a 'vote of confidence' and much to my surprise there were 3 choices.

Confident
Not Confident
Those abstaining

Looking back its somewhat humorous, but I think I was the only one who stood up when they asked for those abstaining.

Point is, we cannot abstain from God's command. We either obey it or do not. Each way has an outcome.

Maybe atpollards point is if its not a 'command' then when we see the word belief or believes, then its just describing what the person has been predestined to do without choice. But since we can use reason, we can see that it is indeed a command, as John says, and thereby understand its a definite choice.
It's not always easy to understand spiritual talk.
I think I addressed Atpollards question.
(sometimes I don't!)

Where does God COMMAND us to believe?
We're just told that if we want eternal life THEN we are to believe...
 
What ever He does is Godly... we might not understand His actions or inaction's as Godly but they are...

images
Yes. The proverbial fence. I'm on one too...

But regarding the above...
God is just and He can do whatever He wants to do.
OK.
But then WHY am I told all throughout the N.T. that I am NOT TO SIN.
That I am to confess my sins.

Why would I need NOT TO SIN
OR
to confess those sins...

If God has made up His mind about me already?
 
It's not always easy to understand spiritual talk.
I think I addressed Atpollards question.
(sometimes I don't!)

Where does God COMMAND us to believe?
We're just told that if we want eternal life THEN we are to believe...
John states it as a command. But my post above also explains that it's a command. You have to understand what a command is in order to understand how it's a command.

What do you think a command is? If you had to define it?
 
Yes. The proverbial fence. I'm on one too...

But regarding the above...
God is just and He can do whatever He wants to do.
OK.
But then WHY am I told all throughout the N.T. that I am NOT TO SIN.
That I am to confess my sins.

Why would I need NOT TO SIN
OR
to confess those sins...

If God has made up His mind about me already?
Those are also commands. :)
 
John states it as a command. But my post above also explains that it's a command. You have to understand what a command is in order to understand how it's a command.

What do you think a command is? If you had to define it?
This is a command:
Mother to child:
Get to bed...
And get there NOW!!

Please post the scripture...
 
Those are also commands. :)
Why would I be commanded something if God has already determined my eternal state?

See? It doesn't make sense.

If He's commanding me, it's for my own good. It means I'm to obey that command IF I want eternal life. This means it's up to me and God has not predetermined the eternal state of my soul and spirit.
 
Why would I be commanded something if God has already determined my eternal state?

See? It doesn't make sense.

If He's commanding me, it's for my own good. It means I'm to obey that command IF I want eternal life. This means it's up to me and God has not predetermined the eternal state of my soul and spirit.
Think of it this way.

Did Israel have to do the 10 commandments?

Did they ever disobey?

Does that mean that they weren't commandments?
 
I did above.

But, does you child have a choice? They can either obey or not. It's better if they obey of course. :)
They do have a choice.
They could tell me, No - I won't go to bed.
Of course there are consequences.
If I don't obey God, I'm headed south.

I think we're not understanding each other...
 
Think of it this way.

Did Israel have to do the 10 commandments?

Did they ever disobey?

Does that mean that they weren't commandments?
Your talking about commands and obeying.

I believe Atpollard and I are talking about God deciding who is saved or not.
I don't understand this to be the same.
 
Your talking about commands and obeying.

I believe Atpollard and I are talking about God deciding who is saved or not.
I don't understand this to be the same.
Commands are commands.

What your talking about is not commands but preset decision. A command requires something. Obedience or disobedience.

If belief is not a command then there cannot be a choice.

We are thinking the same thing. At pollard wanted verses that said belief was a command. I pointed out that by nature it is a command just the same as the 10 were.
 
Commands are commands.

What your talking about is not commands but preset decision. A command requires something. Obedience or disobedience.

If belief is not a command then there cannot be a choice.

We are thinking the same thing. At pollard wanted verses that said belief was a command. I pointed out that by nature it is a command just the same as the 10 were.
Nathan,
You're way ahead of me...
We are commanded to believe if we want to be safe.
Our answer must be Yes.
But we must decide to let it be Yes.
So we're deciding to obey the command.
To be safe.

I THINK I get what you mean.
I never thought of it this way.
God commands something, but we can still CHOOSE to obey or not.

Is that it?
 
Yes. The proverbial fence. I'm on one too...

But regarding the above...
God is just and He can do whatever He wants to do.
OK.
But then WHY am I told all throughout the N.T. that I am NOT TO SIN.
That I am to confess my sins.

Why would I need NOT TO SIN
OR
to confess those sins...

If God has made up His mind about me already?
Because we have responsibilities
 
Nathan,
You're way ahead of me...
We are commanded to believe if we want to be safe.
Our answer must be Yes.
But we must decide to let it be Yes.
So we're deciding to obey the command.
To be safe.

I THINK I get what you mean.
I never thought of it this way.
God commands something, but we can still CHOOSE to obey or not.

Is that it?
:thumbsup Yup. You got it. :)
 
Because we have responsibilities
How could I be responsible if God doesn't allow me to choose Him or not?

If you notice, every scripture regarding believing is in the present tense.
1 John 5:13
John, once again, says to you WHO BELIEVE.
Not, did once believe, had believed, did believe---it's always BELIEVE, now, at the present moment.
 
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I'd say though, I know you meant "safe" as saved, but that's it.

Belief is not a suggestion. It's a commandment with promise. Eternal life.
 
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