Predestination

[Oats]

I used to be against this...not so much anymore


What're your thoughts?

 

[Michae1]

Predestination is the Divine foreordaining or foreknowledge of all that will happen; with regard to the salvation of some and not others. -Wikipedia

That pretty much sums it up for me. Time is not an issue with God. He lives outside of time, and we mortal humans live within it. It is part of our present existence. So God has seen everything from the beginning of time to the end of time. He even knew I was going to write this.

Of course nobody says it better than Paul:

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30 NASB)

 

[lovely]

I agree with Paul, and you. It's not a popular belief with the church, though.

 

[Oats]

I agree with Paul, and you. It's not a popular belief with the church, though.

Why not?

I've been reading a book lately that talks a lot about that

 

[mkbauer]

I believe the Lord's plan is going as He has lain it all out...it's simple to me, God is aware of the past, present, and future...He knows what is next, always...Why else would you feel comfortable following those compelling feelings of where to go next that you get from the Holy Spirit? We're all in good hands. ;)

 

[Pard]

I'm not sure I get the question.

Predestination is a fancy way of saying, "God knows all things past, present and future. Logically He must know who will make it to Heaven and who will not."

 

[Nick]

I'm not sure I get the question.

Predestination is a fancy way of saying, "God knows all things past, present and future. Logically He must know who will make it to Heaven and who will not."

I've always got the feeling that it goes a bit more than that, becasue if it didn't then a lot of Chrisitians would be in trouble for not believing predestination.

I believe in predestination, where God has a Plan, and that plan includes some people but not all, obviously. His reasons I don't need nor can I know. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in freewill either. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Pard]

It's not hard. We have free-will in the here in now. God doesn't live in the here and now. He is beyond the confines of time. He already knows how it all ends and He already knows how our free-will leads us. Nothing you can do will ever surprise God, He already knew it was going to happen before He even created the world.

 

[Nick]

It's not hard. We have free-will in the here in now. God doesn't live in the here and now. He is beyond the confines of time. He already knows how it all ends and He already knows how our free-will leads us. Nothing you can do will ever surprise God, He already knew it was going to happen before He even created the world.

I agree, but as I said before I think that it's more than that. I believe He does take an active part when He wants to.

 

[Pard]

I agree, but as I said before I think that it's more than that. I believe He does take an active part when He wants to.

Oh I agree, I think He may choose some people to be Christian, but He never chooses people to NOT be Christian, which is one of the things people try to bring against predestination.

 

[Pard]

No, MA. You made the choice to reject Christ. What I meant was God will never create a person (as He creates everyone personally) and then say from the get-go, "OK you are not going to be saved." He may say, "You will be saved." but never the former.

Read my post above that, it may make more sense.

 

[Pard]

I think He let you make that choice. He knew you would make that choice of course, but you made it, not Him. Remember, God is not stuck within the confines of time. The day of creation is as fresh to Him as the day of judgment. He knew, when He created you how it would all turn out but only because you had already lived it out.

It is crazy complicated and if that makes no sense, I am sorry, but text really is not the best way to transfer such ideas. Keep in mind, this is my view, and not all Christians.

 

[Vince]

The Bible teaches us that God's people are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, and that we are predestined to the adoption of sons. Period.

No one is predestined to Heaven, predestined to Hell, predestined to be saved, predestined to be lost, predestined to repent, or predestined to believe.

 

[Nick]

Oh I agree, I think He may choose some people to be Christian, but He never chooses people to NOT be Christian, which is one of the things people try to bring against predestination.

I agree.

I think the predestination doctrine and calvinism in general is so hard for many to accept becasue it really does put man in such low a position and the power and trust of God such high.

 

[Vince]

I agree.

I think the predestination doctrine and calvinism in general is so hard for many to accept becasue it really does put man in such low a position and the power and trust of God such high.

No, Calvinism is so hard for many because God doesn't lead them to non-Biblical doctrines.

The Manichaean philosopher, St. Augustine, blended Mani's doctrine of unconditional election into Christianity as part of his effort to blend Christianity and paganism into a new and better religion. Augustine didn't find unconditional election in the Scriptures; he found it in Mani's false religion. He also blended statue worship, Mary worship, infant sprinkling, and persecution into Christianity and is considered a hero by the Catholic Church.

Centuries later, John Calvin got unconditional election from St. Augustine, not from the Bible. However, Calvin added the new doctrine that unconditional election was Scriptural, rather than pagan.

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm not sure I get the question.

Predestination is a fancy way of saying, "God knows all things past, present and future. Logically He must know who will make it to Heaven and who will not."

Predestination and foreknowledge are two different things. Predestination means that God determined in advance who would act and believe in a certain way and who wouldn't. It is based on God's action, not ours. Foreknowledge means that all God did was look down the timeline and see who would choose him. It is based on our actions, not God's.

 

[A New Dawn]

I agree.

I think the predestination doctrine and calvinism in general is so hard for many to accept becasue it really does put man in such low a position and the power and trust of God such high.

This is definitely true. Calvinism (more properly called the Doctrines of Grace) place a high emphasis on God's sovereignty and very low emphasis on man's choice.

 

[A New Dawn]

The Bible teaches us that God's people are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, and that we are predestined to the adoption of sons. Period.

No one is predestined to Heaven, predestined to Hell, predestined to be saved, predestined to be lost, predestined to repent, or predestined to believe.

I think that if you look at the next verse, you will indeed see that the one who is predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son will be called, and those who are called will be justified, and those who are justified will be glorified. So your statement would be incorrect.

 

[Ed the Ned]

This is a difficult discussion as I personally respect many leaders that teach both positions. I don't believe that choosing any particular way or slandering the other will affect my salvation. I enjoy the teachings of John Macarthur and John Piper, a good read is "don't waste you life" I also have a lot of respect for Dave Hunt who believes that Calvinism is heretical. I personally am trying to come to terms with both sides to get a better understanding. The Gospel comes first though, repentance and the belief in Jesus Christ. As I search scripture I am sure that God will lead me in the direction he wants me to follow. To those who have heard the Gospel and choose to ignore it and deny it. Good luck, you are in the prayers of Christians daily. But on judgement day don't blame others, you chose the road to follow, you heard, you rebuked and you face the outcome. Don't blame a sinning pastor or difference in understanding the Bible. Don't say you thought all religions lead to God, like Oprah. Christ said he was the only way.

 

[coffeeelover]

No, Calvinism is so hard for many because God doesn't lead them to non-Biblical doctrines.

The Manichaean philosopher, St. Augustine, blended Mani's doctrine of unconditional election into Christianity as part of his effort to blend Christianity and paganism into a new and better religion. Augustine didn't find unconditional election in the Scriptures; he found it in Mani's false religion. He also blended statue worship, Mary worship, infant sprinkling, and persecution into Christianity and is considered a hero by the Catholic Church.

Centuries later, John Calvin got unconditional election from St. Augustine, not from the Bible. However, Calvin added the new doctrine that unconditional election was Scriptural, rather than pagan.

Aww I was hoping the new board could go at least a month before someone bashed Catholicism.