Predestination

[savedbygrace57]

Predestination is that all encompassing Purpose of God [The Godhead] in which He sovereignly decreed all things that come to pass in time, as it specifically regards the Salvation [experientially] of His Elect ! This means, all that has been, is even now, and that yet to come,was purposed by God in eternity and is brought to pass by Him providentially in time for the salvation [converting] of a great multitude whose names were written in the lambs book of life in Sovereign Election before the world began !

 

[Elijah674]

Predestination is that all encompassing Purpose of God [The Godhead] in which He sovereignly decreed all things that come to pass in time, as it specifically regards the Salvation [experientially] of His Elect ! This means, all that has been, is even now, and that yet to come,was purposed by God in eternity and is brought to pass by Him providentially in time for the salvation [converting] of a great multitude whose names were written in the lambs book of life in Sovereign Election before the world began !

Your problem's are that [YOU'INS] think that you can know as the Godhead have Eternally known for fact. But, you are [[NO GOD!]]

Rom. 4
[17] (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which [[be not]] as though they were.

But just stick around a spat while longer, & we will see whose side that you are in bottom/line walking!;) Amos 7:7-8. You do know what a plumb/line is, right?

--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

We are predestined to the ADOPTION OF CHILDREN by Jesus Christ.. and this is still a forthcoming event according to Romans 8, where Paul says that the we wait for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Double Predestination !

God's double decree of Predestination, that from all eternity, not based upon anything of His creatures, neither good nor evil, God did detemine that some of His creatures should have everlasting life, and that some should have everlasting damnation on account of their sins. Prov 16:4

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God made the wicked for the day of evil, that is for their day of destruction to be meted out to each one of them in the day of His wrath and Last Judgment.

Job 21:30

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

It also says that Jesus enlightens all men, and draws all men to Himself.

Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

John 6:44

 

[Vince]

In the very next verse, Jesus explains that the Father draws all men to Christ by teaching them.

 

[Drew]

Re: Double Predestination !

God's double decree of Predestination, that from all eternity, not based upon anything of His creatures, neither good nor evil, God did detemine that some of His creatures should have everlasting life, and that some should have everlasting damnation on account of their sins. Prov 16:4

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God made the wicked for the day of evil, that is for their day of destruction to be meted out to each one of them in the day of His wrath and Last Judgment.

Job 21:30

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

As is the case in many of your posts, I suggest that you read a lot into various texts, clearly bringing certain assumptions to the various texts that you put forth in defence of your view on pre-destination. Now these assumptions could, repeat could turn out to be right (I don't think they are, but that's another story).

I will need to take some time to show how the Proverbs texts only supports your position if certain assumptions turn out to be correct. But dealing with the Job text is easy. To assert that "the wicked are reserved to wrath" in no way requires us to see them as pre-destined to wrath. The reason: it is plausible that they are thus reserved contingent upon their "free will" decision to embrace evil. Analogy: Suppose I assert "all adulterers are pre-destined to feel guilty". Does this require us to believe that specific people are pre-destined to be adulterers? Of course not. It is the category "adulterers" that is "pre-destined" to guilt. Those who freely become adulterers only then become members of a category of people pre-destined to feel guilty. The key point: the specific people who end up in that category need not be pre-determined.

 

[savedbygrace57]

In the very next verse, Jesus explains that the Father draws all men to Christ by teaching them.

The drawing and teaching are evidences of the New Birth. Do you believe all men without exception are born again ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

ordained to condemnation 1

Jude speaks of men who were ordained to condemnation Jude 1:4

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

This,concerning these individuals, was determined of them from everlasting. They were as Peter puts it in 2 Pet 2:12 made or born to be taken and destroyed !

 

[Drew]

Re: ordained to condemnation 1

Jude speaks of men who were ordained to condemnation Jude 1:4

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

This,concerning these individuals, was determined of them from everlasting. They were as Peter puts it in 2 Pet 2:12 made or born to be taken and destroyed !

Not so fast. Yes, the text as rendered in the version you have quoted from suggests what you are saying. But note how the NASB renders this text:

For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ

On this translation we can read the text as asserting that those who freely turned to evil were indeed "marked out" or "tagged" or "identified" for condemnation. The same argument as per my earlier post applies - we need to respect the distinction between the connection of a category to some "fate", on the one hand, and how the specific members of that category are determined, on the other.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

In the very next verse, Jesus explains that the Father draws all men to Christ by teaching them.

And?

 

[Vince]

"Predestination is that all encompassing Purpose of God [The Godhead] in which He sovereignly decreed all things that come to pass in time,"

No, predestination refers to our being conformed to God's image and to being adopted as sons.

Predestination to Heaven, to Hell, to salvation, to repentance, to faith, etc., are philosophies of men and are not taught in Scripture.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

"Predestination is that all encompassing Purpose of God [The Godhead] in which He sovereignly decreed all things that come to pass in time,"

No, predestination refers to our being conformed to God's image and to being adopted as sons.

This is not what Calvin says about predestination, and he backs it up with scripture.

 

[Drew]

This is not what Calvin says about predestination, and he backs it up with scripture.

Can you defend the pre-destination position Biblically? I have studied the case for it, and I just do not see a solid Biblical argument for it.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

Can you defend the pre-destination position Biblically? I have studied the case for it, and I just do not see a solid Biblical argument for it.

I might be able to do that but I have no intention of doing so. I am not even sure that I believe in predestination, I was just telling Vince what John Calvin actually said.

I do know that God is sovereign, and I'm not.

 

[Drew]

I might be able to do that but I have no intention of doing so. I am not even sure that I believe in predestination, I was just telling Vince what John Calvin actually said.

I do know that God is sovereign, and I'm not.

Fair enough. Thanks for responding to my post.

 

[Vince]

"The drawing and teaching are evidences of the New Birth. Do you believe all men without exception are born again ?"

No, the drawing and teaching are the causes of the new birth, and they are given to all men, as the passage clearly teaches. Men can then accept or reject this drawing and teaching.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

the drawing and teaching are the causes of the new birth

Wrong, the drawing is the evidence of the New Birth, the Holy Spirit's inner working.

The word draw is the greek word helkuo and means:

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The inward Power is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all Truth. Zech 4:6

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Ps 110:

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

And of course the Spirit teaches as well.

So again, those who are being drawn to Christ, give evidence of being born anew and are under the control of inner working of the Spirit.

Phil 2:13

13For it is God [The Holy Ghost] which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[Vince]

Not only does the Father draw all men to Christ by teaching them, but Jesus also draws all men to Himself.

And, yes, it is the same Greek word for "draw."