Predestination

[Bazz1040]

Since it is not God's will that anyone perish, why does God kill people? Annanias and Sapphira, as well as Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu, appear to have been saints who went into serious sin. But what about Pharaoh and the Egyptians?

Pharaoh was not an innocent man whom God forced to sin. He had hardened his own heart before God did it to him. Exodus 8:15 tells us "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said."

Exodus 9: 34-35 tells us "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants. So the heart of Pharaoh was hard; neither would he let the children of Israel go, as the LORD had spoken by Moses."

I'll be using several posts to explain the Biblical teaching on Pharaoh, but we'll start with this one: Pharaoh was not an innocent man whom God forced to sin.

You know a lot of people have asked questions like that to me and every time I try to use scripture to show God's love and mercy for those people as well. You see the problem is not God, it is us. We act as if we know better than God and seem to be accusing Him of being unjust. The problem with that kind of attitude is that it is not rooted in humility…..it is the mind of Satan. The Bible says that God resist the proud but gives grace to the humble.

So rather than question God's actions which is based on ones assumptions and ignorance, how about with a humble mind asks God to show you through His world the truth that is hidden from you? With the right attitude God will show you that He is far more merciful than you imagined Him to be.

 

[Vince]

We have seen from Scripture that Pharaoh was not an innocent man whom God forced to sin. He had chosen to harden his heart before God did anything to him. But why did God visit such wrath on Pharaoh?

Pharaoh was already cursed by God because of his cruelty towards God's people. "I will bless him who blesses you, and curse him who curses you." But Romans 9 gives us more reasons for God's wrath towards Pharaoh.

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." God's goal is to bring all men to Himself. His judgment of Pharaoh and the Egyptians was a tool He used to bring people to Himself.

 

[Bazz1040]

We have seen from Scripture that Pharaoh was not an innocent man whom God forced to sin. He had chosen to harden his heart before God did anything to him. But why did God visit such wrath on Pharaoh?

Pharaoh was already cursed by God because of his cruelty towards God's people. "I will bless him who blesses you, and curse him who curses you." But Romans 9 gives us more reasons for God's wrath towards Pharaoh.

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." God's goal is to bring all men to Himself. His judgment of Pharaoh and the Egyptians was a tool He used to bring people to Himself.

While much of what you say is true God did hardened Pharaoh's mind after He poured out the plagues.

Exodus 7:3 (KJV)
3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

If God did not do that Pharaoh would have let the Israelites go after one or two of the plagues, and God's mighty power would not have been shown for all to see. God has a plan for ancient Egypt, which includes all the Pharaohs. They all will be brought back from the dead and they will remember what happened. They will know that God is the true and only God and repent and be saved.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Predestination of all things !

What is Gods predestination of all things other than His determinate counsel and foreknowledge involving and controlling all things. It means His Eternal Purpose in all things, and which He absolutely rules over all things in His Universe, all things being subjected to His Almighty control.. Its said of Jesus Christ even now 1 pet 3:

22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

If this was not the case, there could be no security or assurance for the people of God, and no certainty that the world would continue in its present course, that of different seasons, orbits , cycles, that effects life, health and comfort, and then all would be of Chance. But as it is, His People can take comfort in this:

ps 33:11

The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts[purposes] of his heart to all generations.

Also Job 23:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

 

[Vince]

"What is Gods predestination of all things ..."

There is no such thing. Predestination refers only to the adoption of sons and of being conformed to the image of His Son. Period.

All other predestinations are not found in Scripture.

 

[savedbygrace57]

In God's Eternal Mind all things have been ordered and known perfectly forever, and nothing has ever happened or occurred that is new to God, and outside of His Eternal Predestination Purpose, hence all things have been determined by God as they should be in time, they have been predetermined before time, or purposed in eternity. The wise man states:

ecc 3:

15That which hath been [In God's Eternal Purpose] is now; and that which is to be hath already been [In God's Eternal Purpose]; and God requireth that which is past.

Gods predetermination according to His eternal purpose which He purposed in Himself [eph 1:9] is the same thing as His predestination, and that means, whatever is, it is because the infinite counsel and purpose of God, who is Omnipotent and omniscient determined beforehand to permit it to be so, for His Power could have prevented it , but it was for His Glory, and the ultimate good of His elect, this is predestination..

God has either so determined to allow all things to take place as they do, or else His Knowledge, Wisdom, and Power are not perfect and limited, and subservient to His creatures, and they happen by chance, and disappoint the will and pleasure and purposes of God.

 

[Vince]

We have seen that Pharaoh was a wicked man, bringing God's curse on himself by mistreating His people, and hardening his own heart before God did it to him.

This agrees with Romans 9:22 "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction," God Himself had to endure Pharaoh's wickedness. God was not the author of Pharaoh's sins, nor did He cause Pharaoh to sin.

But God used Pharaoh's wickedness as a tool to bring people to Himself.

Psalm 145:8-9 The LORD is gracious and full of compassion, Slow to anger and great in mercy. The LORD is good to all, And His tender mercies are over all His works.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Ps 76:10

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

It would be folly for us to figure that the all powerful and wise Creator of all things, would permit some things to occur of which He had no purpose for or takes no notice of, for this again would make them Chance events, which is contrary to scripture testimony for we read prov 16:33

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

The Lord Jesus Christ taught His True followers that not even a sparrow can fall to the ground without God's attention, and that the very hairs on our heads have been numbered by our Father, hence God is in control of the minutest of details in our lives..

For scripture declares acts 17:

28For in him we live, and move, and have our being;

In His predetermined counsel we live and move and have our being, all being determined by Him for us vs

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

God of old, determined where you and i would live, be born, and the end of our days, and how and when they would end, and everything in between..

Thats why a wise man wrote James 4:


13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:

14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

Yes, all has been determined or predestined by God. Notice it says if the Lord will we shall live !

And that means live eternally as well, to live eternally in the eternal habitations is not up to man but up to God and His eternal predestinating purpose.

For God is from eternity to eternity the same unchanging God, and all things have been forever known and determined by Him as it Has been revealed in His word..

 

[Vince]

God tells Moses in Exodus 7:5

"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

God's goal in punishing the Egyptians with the ten plagues was to bring them to Him.

 

[mondar]

God tells Moses in Exodus 7:5

"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

God's goal in punishing the Egyptians with the ten plagues was to bring them to Him.

Vince, this is a completely non-sequitur reading of Exodus 7:5. That text says nothing at all about the 10 plagues being God's attempt to save the Egyptians.

If you want the purpose of the plagues, you would have to go to Romans 9.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
Rom 9:23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,

Observations---- Vince, you say that the "purpose" of the 10 plagues was the salvation of Egyptians. The word "purpose" occurs in verse 17. "For this very purpose" Now the clause refers to the Pharaoh, but it is noticable in the text that God is not trying to save the pharaoh, Egypt's ruler. Rather the purpose of placing Pharaoh in authority to attempt to resist God, was so that God could do the 10 plagues. What does verse 17 say is the reason for the plagues? "that I might show in thee my power" God wanted the earth to see the greatness of his judgment on the Pharaoh.
---- Also, verse 22 suppliments verse 17. In verse 22 it tells us that vessels of destruction are made to show two attributes of God, his wrath and his longsuffering.
---- Verse 23 is the most important verse... who is God showing these attributes to? He wants the vessels of mercy to see the "riches of his glory." The audience of the events in Egypt long ago will be the saints in eternity. God punished the Egyptians long ago, so that the saints will know the "riches of his glory" by being aware of his attributes.

There is nothing in the verses you quoted, or in Romans 9, about God trying to somehow save Egyptian souls.

 

[Drew]

If you want the purpose of the plagues, you would have to go to Romans 9.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
Rom 9:23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
.
.
.
There is nothing in the verses you quoted, or in Romans 9, about God trying to somehow save Egyptian souls.

I entirely agree - it is clear from Romans 9 that Paul, at least, believes that God had an entirely different reason for dealing with the Egyptians the way He did.

Vince (if you are reading this): I do not believe that the Scriptures teach the pre-destination of individuals to an eternal fate. The text in Romans 9 does not, although many read it as such, specifically teach that Pharoah was "pre-destined to hell" - I suggest that we take the text seriously and accept that Pharoah was pre-destined to resist the release of the Jews, thereby enabling God to demonstrate His power publically via the exodus.

But I believe mondar is correct to the extent that he argues that the treatment of the Egyptians did not have, as its purpose, the salvation of Egyptian souls - please read the entire story (New Testament and Old). Perhaps if we did not have Romans 9, one might be able to credibly make the case you are making.

But Paul did write Romans 9, and it tells us rather clearly that God had a specific reason to harden Pharoah, and it has nothing to do with "saving Egyptians".

 

[Bazz1040]

God tells Moses in Exodus 7:5

"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

God's goal in punishing the Egyptians with the ten plagues was to bring them to Him.

It does not say that in that verse but ultimately that is what God will do. I say will do, because that is what will happen when the ancient Egyptians are resurrected in the second resurrection.

 

[Vince]

Exodus teaches that God's purpose in sending the ten plagues was to bring the Egyptians to Himself. Does Romans 9 contradict this teaching?

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.

 

[Drew]

Exodus teaches that God's purpose in sending the ten plagues was to bring the Egyptians to Himself. Does Romans 9 contradict this teaching?

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.

I agree that the purpose of hardening Pharaoh was, at least in part, to allow God to demonstrate His power to all the world. But that does not necessarily mean that this was for the purpose of "saving Egyptians". Look at what we are told in Exodus 10:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD

While I am inclined to think that God generally wants men of any nation to seek Him, this is not the explanation given here for the hardening of Pharoah. Instead, we are told that the hardening was done to teach the Israelites something.

 

[Vince]

The Bible tells us that God's purpose in the Ten Plagues and the drowning of Pharaoh was to bring the Egyptians to Himself. How well did it work?

Exodus 9:20 tells us " He who feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his livestock flee to the houses."

While the Egyptians believed that the Lord existed, they regarded Him as a defeated god whose people were enslaved. Getting them to turn to the Lord would have been quite a task. By sending these plagues and defeating the gods of Egypt, the Lord was teaching them to respect His Word.

And, yes, God had other purposes. He wanted to teach Israel, and He wanted to bring the rest of the world to Him, as well as the Egyptians.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Even the wicked and their deeds ! -



Prov 16:

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Even the wicked deeds that men commit on this earth, yes, even the vilest of them all, the betrayal and murder of the Lord Jesus Christ, had been determined by God..

It is written:lk 22:22

And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

Both the event and the persons who partook in this event had been determined by God.

Jesus was determined to be slain from the foundation rev 13:


8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

In the purpose of God, it was an already done deal, judas was already guilty of betrayal...

In prayer to God the apostle said:

acts 4:

24And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

You see, the apostles believed in the Sovereignty of God and His determination of evil by men, to carry out His eternal purpose..

This we have is the predestination or predetermination of God, His foreordained counsel [ 1 pet 1:20] and purpose, of which embraced the vilest sin ever to be committed by men, and peter , full of the Holy Ghost charged it upon the guilty men, calling them murderers, stating:

acts 2:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

also: acts 3:18

But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

It was not what was merely foresaw, but what was determined and fulfilled !

Christ said lk 24:26

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

It was necessary to establish the counsel and decree of God !

lk 24:26

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

The apostles and other followers of Christ suffer cruel persecutions , why ? 1 thess 3:3


That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed or destined thereunto.

Yes, the afflictions, and those who do the afflicting have been appointed by God..

 

[Vince]

Centuries after the Exodus, God used Nebuchadnezzar to punish the Egyptians. Why?


"And all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know that I am the LORD..." Ezekiel 29:6

"...then they will know that I am the LORD..." Ez. 29:9

And in verse 21, God even explains that He will use His punishment of Egypt to bring Israel to Him. " Then they [Israel]shall know that I am the LORD.' "

 

[savedbygrace57]

God has created the destroyer to accomplish His purpose Isa 54:

16Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

He created those who destroyed the earth rev 11:

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

They were created for His purpose to carry out His will, and that they did..

rev 9:

11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Apollyon in the greek means:

Apollyon = "Destroyer"

1) the angel of the bottomless pit, the Destroyer


All creatures serve Gods purpose, He made them for that ps 119:

91They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants.​

 

[Vince]

A major error of Calvinism, which appears frequently on this thread, is the belief that you can use Scripture to refute Scripture. (I have five verses and you have three, so your three verses must be false.)

The Scriptures being quoted showing that God appoints destroyers of the wicked do not teach that the wicked were innocent men, whom God predestined for destruction unconditionally. They were appointed to destruction as a result of their sins.

 

[Vince]

Hebrews 12:15 warns us to be " looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God;"

How can you fall short of an irresistible force? But a Christian who falls short ("fails" in the KJV) of God's kindness will be subject to bitterness and will then defile others, as the rest of the passage explains.