Premarital Sex...

[Blazin Bones]

Time Out...

When I asked for a return to the original topic, I meant go back to the topic of pre-marital sex. This is the second warning to this thread before I delete posts. Again, if you wish to continue this discussion, then feel free to Make a topic regarding this issue in Christian Talk and Advice.

 

[sheshisown]

Good point.

Sorry if I came across as a jerk, I've been angry lately.

Same here. I get that way about my beliefs. I'm not going to be a convincing minister for the lord if I act that way. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar or something like that.

It's lemons . . . I know I'm an old lady.

Hi Ya'll~

I just thought I might type up a few of my pennies worth on this one. :smt024 I am a widow and I previously practiced fornication, or what the world now so gingerly calls pre-marital sex.

In order to percieve what is pleasing to God about sex we have to look at marriage, because that is the only sexual union God is pleased with. Hebrews 13:4 Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

It was quoted here erroniously that: Jesus never said that a man and a woman that decided to live together in a committed intimate relationship is a sin. What Jesus condemned was unfaithfulness to that relationship….this is what God is against.

But the Bible says otherwise;

In Revelation 2:20 Jesus speaks to warn the church in Thyatira saying: But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman-that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet-to lead my servants astray. She is encouraging them to worship idols, eat food offered to idols, and commit sexual sin. NLT

Also, there are a few quotes used here that may be from church history~ but they are not biblically based in this discussion. If indeed these people were from the sect of the Nicolaitans we ought to pay attention to what Jesus says about them. Lies always bring humanity into bondage, only the truth sets us free. :angel:

In the KJV it reads; Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.(emp. mine)

There's that old-fashioned word again. In all the accepted texts it reads the same, fornication is sexual immorality plain and simple, and no sex outside the marriage bed is moral according to God.

When Jesus was confronted by the religious elite of His day in regards to marriage and easy divorce. He took them to the word of God~ back to the first marriage in the garden where God establihed marriage;

The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made[fn1] them at the beginning 'made them male and female, [did you notice that Jesus details taht marriage is made up of a man and a woman here?]
and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh' So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." Matthew 19:3-9

God does not lay out commands because He wants to restrict our freedoms. He sets up these commands to guard our hearts, our minds, our souls, and ultimately our eternal lives. Sex outside of the committed bond of marriage perverts the beauty and love that God desires to instill in each of our lives. God so honors marriage that He will one day marry the bride, His church, to His only most beloved Son. :smt008 :smt058

Think about the wonder and grace of your own salvation, when God sent His Spirit to live in you that is a union~ much like marriage. It is unending, and full of the Lord's committment to you, to keep you, to woo you, to care for you, to love you unconditionally. :-D

When we choose to marry we are given the opportunity to take another sinner into our heart, to give up our life for the other person and love them in the most committed relationship tbetween man and wife that this world knows to be possible.

We get to learn to be lovers of a soul~ just as Jesus has loved our souls. :smt049 Yes? bonnie

 

[Paidion]

But what about "sexually immoral?" Who does that apply to? We look to its Greek counterpart, "pornos" (source) which means "a man a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator" (source). What is a fornicator? Merriam-Webster's takes care of that definition: "consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other" (source).

Actually, that's not the meaning of the Greek word "pornos" (masculine) or "pornÄÂ" (feminine)

"PornÄÂ" occurs in the New Testament 12 times. The King James Version translates it as "harlot" eight times and as "whore" 4 times.

"Pornos" occurs in the New Testament 10 times. The King James Version translates it as "whoremonger" 5 of those times (that is, one who consorts with prostitutes).

I believe these to be the true meaning of the terms notwithstanding modern translations.

 

[sheshisown]

Hello again~

But what about "sexually immoral?" Who does that apply to? We look to its Greek counterpart, "pornos" (source) which means "a man a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator" (source). What is a fornicator? Merriam-Webster's takes care of that definition: "consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other" (source).

Actually, that's not the meaning of the Greek word "pornos" (masculine) or "pornÄÂ" (feminine)

"PornÄÂ" occurs in the New Testament 12 times. The King James Version translates it as "harlot" eight times and as "whore" 4 times.

"Pornos" occurs in the New Testament 10 times. The King James Version translates it as "whoremonger" 5 of those times (that is, one who consorts with prostitutes).

I believe these to be the true meaning of the terms notwithstanding modern translations.

Hmmmmm...............So what is the true meaning of these words in modern day vernacular then? After all we no longer say whoremonger... thou we DO say hatemonger, we also do not use the word harlot really. Let's look at these words you note in the Strongs Bible dictionary Paidon.

Courtesy of the Blue Letter Bible online;

Old Testament (Hebrew)
H2181 zanah zä·nä' ..., harlot, go a whoring...whoredom, whore, commit fornication, whorish, harlot, commit, continually, great, whore's
H6948 qÄ•deshah ked·Ä·shä' harlot, whore
New Testament (Greek)
G4204 pornē po'r-nĠharlot, whore

A whoremonger then is a fornicator. Fornication means any sexual immorality ... to have sex outside of the only union prescribed by God, designed by God, and blessed by God ... to whit = marriage.

Therefore all sin that is not within the realm of God's union, marriage, is sin.

Think for a minute~ if everyone practiced only sex within the marital union with only one life mate ... there would not exist any STD's! How could two pure vessels corrupt one another? WOW! THAT would be cool! 8-)

And~ most wonderful (and a hidden truth in today's culture) is the fact that the union between a man and his wife becomes richer, sweeter, and more satisfying as it grows. You can only test this truth by practicing it thou. While there is absolutely NO lasting satisfaction in any other sexual relationship, it is always temporary and corrupting, and brings about great damage to ones' soul.
Emotionally we break apart, pyschologically we become disturbed, and physically we are made sick, sometimes it even kills us! By what? By sex outside of marriage --- especially by multiple partner sex~ that is proven in every study on STD's~

The world likes to rename things so it can decieve ... what the world flippantly calls pre-marital sex, God calls sin. . .

One more word~ whenever we sin we cause separation between ourselves and the Lord. The only way to reunite our lives to Jesus is thru confession that leads to repentance. 1 John 1:9 And of course He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from everything that is not right when we agree with our Father in heaven that we have sinned and need to stop.
SUCH AN AMAZINGLY MERCIFUL GOD! :infinity: bonnie

 

[Paidion]

So what is the true meaning of these words in modern day vernacular then? After all we no longer say whoremonger... thou we DO say hatemonger, we also do not use the word harlot really.

The modern equivalent words would be "prostitute" for"pornÄÂ" and and "consorter with prostitutes" for "pornos".

Let's look at these words you note in the Strongs Bible dictionary Paidon.

What you need to do to find the meaning of Greek words, is to consult a Greek lexicon, and also to look at the way the words were used in the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, as well as the Septuagint (translation from Hebrew to Greek of the Old Testament and the Apocrypha))

A whoremonger then is a fornicator. Fornication means any sexual immorality ... to have sex outside of the only union prescribed by God, designed by God, and blessed by God ... to whit = marriage.

"Whoremonger" means "one who consorts with prostitutes".

Yes, a whoremonger is a fornicator. That's another word for the same thing. However, you go on to say that "fornication" means "any sexual immorality". It has come to mean that, but that was not the original meaning. English words change their meaning over time. Consider what happened to the meaning of "gay" over a couple of decades.

 

[queenjaz]

Ah, been there, done that, got the t-shirt ! :help lol

Premarital sex is deceiving. You may not see the damage at first, but as time goes by it begins to get down into the core of your being and messes you up.
You begin to start trying to justify it..trying to change all your beliefs to make it seem more okay..then eventually you get so confused it damaged your soul.

There is a really good sermon on Sexual Sin by Ed Young, I highly recommend it.

RUN FROM PREMARITAL SEX!

 

[sk0rpi0n]

Actually, reading this thread has given me a NEW perspective on things. :crazy

Now that someone has mentioned it, the only thing defined in the bible as sexual immorality is adultery and sex with prostitutes. Looking with lust is also forbidden, but what does it really say about a man and a woman in love having sex??

 

[Caroline H]

It says that if they burn with desire they should marry, lest they sin...(1 Corinthians 7:9)

 

[namllets]

Yes it is interesting to see how much pressure there is in the media today to have sex at such an early age, let alone before marriage. If you combine the media's sexy images with broken homes, what do you expect you know? If we can repair our homes and families we have a better shot at fixing all of this! Just my two cents...

 

[Jon-Marc]

believe it or not, there are many christians who would not mind sex before marraige, what are your thoughts on the matter?

My thought is that I doubt that they are Christians--just religious. The Pharisees were the religious leaders of their time; Jesus also called them hypocrites and said they were "Of your father, the devil." John 8:44. A person who is born again is "in Christ, he is a new creature", 2 Cor. 5:17. Old things (sins) are supposed to "pass away" and everything is supposed to "become new".

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Romans 6:1,2. If we continue to LIVE in sin and see nothing wrong with it, then it is doubtful that we were ever saved in the first place. While we might commit an occasional sin as we grow in grace and eventually become holy as God has said in 1 Peter 1:16: ""Be ye holy, for I am holy", we will not and cannot habitually live in sin and call it "good".

Anyone who hangs onto the old sinful life and sees nothing wrong with it is deceived by the devil and still under his control. God expects unmarried Christians to be celibate, and expects married people to be faithful to their spouse. God demands purity and holiness. He does not condone our hanging onto sin and justifying it, and sex with ANYONE to whom we're not married IS sin.

"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." 1 Cor. 10:31. Can we commit fornication or adultery "to the glory of God"?

 

[Blazin Bones]

I understand making a stand against cultural Christianity, but neither you nor I can claim to know the condition of someone's heart.

A desire for sexual intimacy does not come from just our sinful nature alone. There are those who seek sexual intercourse as their means of companionship or as an escape from lonliness they find in life. While this does not excuse their sin, it does not mean that a person needs to be fullheartedly unregenrate to be okay with sexual intercourse before marraige.

 

[mike111]

Probably not a good idea.

 

[CrimsonRose]

Okay well i do admit that it is frustrating sometimes to wait but i am glad that i have and since marriage is the only union that it is okay to engage in sexual acts thats what i plan on doing. Its not easy especially when i think it would be easier to give in but i think i will be better for it. As far as wanting sex alot of people want to have sex its just better to be ruled by god's will better than our own. And what makes me happy is that im sure the person that im waiting for will be happy with my decision and hopefully appreciative.

 

[PrimeRoot]

Is Paul really a liar?

Folks, can anyone reading here
cite even a single scripture
refering to sex, showing
that it can be definitively
NOT MARITAL?

 

[Caroline H]

Primeroot,

Do NOT derail this thread and turn it into a discussion on sex=marriage. If you want to discuss that go here viewtopic.php?f=40&t=33300

 

[Anth]

In fact I believe there are issues to be considered.

As an example - what is porneia (usually translated fornication)? Does it mean pre-marital or extra-marital sexual relations? Paidon has provided the same findings I found when I studied this word - and likewise another who began to actually study this subject in-depth rather than speak off the top of their head using their knowledge of English and modern western culture rather than Koine Greek and that culture as well as the Jewish culture to make an informed conclucsion.

Additionally, we might ask, what are sexual relations (a la Bill Clinton) - what is "the line"?

One statement that did impress me and to which no one can, I think, deny is

it creates an emotional bond prior to any of the relational issues being examined and walked through

I agree that sexual intimacy creates dynamics in a relationship that can and usually does (particularly for women) make it much more complex.

An interesting issue that I have not heard addressed is concubines. David had I think about 40 (or 80) - in addition to a passal of wives. Yet God said that David transgressed only in the matter of Uriah's wife.... Abraham likewise had concubines. What is a concubine? How many can I have? Do I need a wife to have one - or do I simply have one because of the necessary therapy that most men recognize is obtained through that relationship?

Lastly, where does the Holy Spirit fit into this?? Either we are submitted to the Creator in His Son or not. I received one thing from Mark Driscoll while listening to his sermons (other than decent entertainment) - "submit your sexuality to God" (while you are at it, everything else as well). Coming to God with all kinds of pre-conceived culturally/religiously based notions is hardly the starting point for genuine submission. Coming to God with a humble and contrite - and open heart and mind is. Either the Holy Spirit is working in our lives and will properly lead us in these matters or the phrase "walking by the Spirit" is meaningless.

My point here is move beyond our cultural morays and language and into the Word of God itself. Our culture has foisted upon us certain ideas and then embedded them with a religious dynamic - one that I don't believe is scripturally based as noted above in the respectful and God honoring polygynist relationships that David, Abraham and MANY men had and have to this day.

Best,
Anth

 

[Solo]

....And let's be sure and put to death all those who are caught committing adultery!

• And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:10

 

[Blazin Bones]

While I do not mind deeper posts on pre-marital sex, I WILL object to post that are not on topic. Caromurp has already reminded one user to return to the topic and not I will do likewise. Polygamy and sex=marraige are different topics for different threads.

 

[Anth]

Blazin'

I am uncertain if your warning relates to or includes my post. I reviewed the OP to make sure I was on topic - however, I did find it a bit ambiguous (which may be why there is a tendency to "enlarge" the topic a bit).

Would you be kind enuf to re-phrase what your specific goal is with the thread? I introduced four issues related to sex before/outside of marriage that I think need to be considered (albeit not necessarily in this order).

1. Definition of porneia

2. Definition of sexual relations (hard to discuss something without knowing what it is)

3. Affirmation of impact on a relationship

4. Concubinage (looks like "extra-marital" relations which include a wife to boot....)

5. The sovereign direction of the Holy Spirit in the submission of our sexuality (pre, post, extra, or whatever).

I apoligize if I am off base - and humbly request further direction.

Sincerely,
In Christ,
Anth

 

[Blazin Bones]

Let's make this simple:

1. Defining Porneia: We already have provided definitions and while there can be discrepancies in views, the general idea of porneia can still be taken as sexual Immorality. Sex is sex regardless of how you define porneia. If the post can relate to premarital sex, then it is reasonable.

2.??? Sex is Sex. Unless your going to suggest that oral is less sexual than direct intercourse, and like ideas and then relate the post to it's relative occurance in regards to marriage, then leave the "defining sex" out.

3. Empathetic or spiritual impact of premarital sex can be discussed.

4. Concubines, polygamy and other sexual practices and perversions are for another thread.

5. Godliness in regards to sexuality should only be discussed in regards to sex before as opposed to sex after marraige.

Are these guidelines clear?