Protestants celebrate Reformation Day, 31 Oct

Discussion in 'Christian / Church Histories' started by OzSpen, Oct 30, 2017.

  1. Allen Wynne

    Allen Wynne Member

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    I will not debate you on this.
    I've been thrown off this forum enough.
    Go argue the point with someone else.
     
  2. jasonc

    jasonc Member

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    He isn't talking about the rcc.
    The book of the martyrs, starts basically with justin martyr.

    In fact the worder martyr is from his death by the hands of the romans.the roman govt in ad 100 was killing christians .
     
  3. Allen Wynne

    Allen Wynne Member

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    He has stated his opinion concerning the roman catholic church several times on this thread.
    I am unable to debate those comments.
    You yourself have stated your opinion on the roman catholic church in this thread.
    I could debate with you what you said, but it's illegal on this forum and you know that.
    I'm just convinced that if I express my opinion on the roman catholic church in this thread, it will no doubt lead to me being banned again.
     
  4. jasonc

    jasonc Member

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    If you noticed ,I clarified the mass of the rcc. The mass listing he posted is not ant different then some moden services.in fact a few pentacostals worship like that. I didn't mind that.they had music after a reading of the bible ,then a sermon,then communion at the end.
     
  5. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    What about All Saints Day tomorrow... November I
     
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  6. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    Jim,

    I hope you mean "it's major contribution" is "its major contribution".
    [​IMG]

    I believe you are perpetrating a myth with that kind of statement. Here's why. Here is an article from a Roman Catholic source. Yes, Roman Catholic: "We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations' (National Catholic Register). Here is the reasoning from the article:

    There are not—repeat with me—there are not 33,000 Protestant denominations. There are not anywhere close to it. It is a myth that has taken hold by force of repetition, and it gets cited and recited by reflex; but it is based on a source that, even Catholics will have to concede, relies on too loose a definition of the word “denomination....

    So according to the WCE [World Christian Encyclopedia], the 33,000 figure represents “world Christianity.” Now unless a Catholic wants to suppose that “world Christianity” means Protestantism, the number would have to be something less. 33,000, according to the source from which the number comes, means the whole of Christianity, not Protestantism specifically.

    The WCE then goes on to break down “world Christianity” into the following broad categories:

    • Independents: 22,000 denominations
    • Protestants: 9000 denominations
    • Marginals: 1600 denominations
    • Orthodox: 781 denominations
    • Catholics: 242 denominations
    • Anglicans: 168 denominations
    Thus the immediate problem is that the WCE only classifies 9000 denominations (27% of the whole) as Protestant. To get to 33,000, one must add in the Independents, Marginals, Anglicans, and 232 of the Orthodox.

    Among the 23,600 “Independents” and “Marginals” (70% of the whole) are large numbers of groups one would have a hard time calling Protestant. They include Mormons (122 denominations), Jehovah’s Witnesses (229 denominations), Masons (28 denominations), Christadelphians (21 denominations) Unitarians (29 denominations), Christian Science (59 denominations), Theosophists (3 more denominations), British Israelites (8 denominations), Prosperity Gospel groups (27 denominations), Oneness Pentecostals (680 denominations), “Hidden Buddhist Believers in Christ” (9 denominations), wandering bishops (12 denominations), Independent Nestorians (5 denominations), occultists (3 denominations), spiritists (20 denominations), Zionists (159 denominations), even “Arab radio/TV network” (19 denominations), “gay/homosexual tradition” (2 denominations), and schismatic Catholics (435 denominations). It is a strange and eclectic list. (See here and here.)

    However strong the temptation some may have to characterize anything not Catholic or Orthodox as “Protestant,” you can’t do that. All that tells Protestant apologists is that you don’t know what Protestantism is, or what its distinctives are—and they would be right. And why would they take anything you say seriously after that? If you don’t know what Protestantism is, who are you to be talking about its errors? Not only are Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarians, Prosperity Gospel believers (included among 23,600 Independents and Marginals) not Protestant, they are not even Christian; they adhere to a false Christology. Protestants and Catholics are in agreement about who Christ is; these other groups have other ideas.

    And then the WCE somehow comes up with 242 Catholic denominations. That should be a big glaring red flag that it has been a bit—how shall we say?—free and loose with the word “denomination.”​

    I recommend a read of this brand new article (31 Oct 17) by Alister McGrath on Australia's national broadcaster, the ABC, Protestantism's Dangerous Idea: How the Reformation Redefined the Church.

    Blessings,
    Oz
     
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  7. Knotical

    Knotical Staff Member Moderator

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    Good works is evidence that someone is a follower of Christ, having received salvation. It is basically an outward sign to others as to what is going on inside the individual. We are called to do works as a way to show gratitude to Jesus for His sacrifice for us on the cross, and to show Glory to God. This isn't mandatory for salvation.

    To put it another way, if someone says they are a Christian yet they do not show it in their walk, then that is evidence that they may not be saved. Only God knows.
     
  8. turnorburn

    turnorburn Member

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    The reformation will never die as long as there are spirit filled followers of Jesus Christ in this world for one glaring reason if for nothing else..

    “It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Anti-Christ, and as to what Anti-Christ is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name…because it wounds Christ, because it robs Christ of His Glory, because it puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour, and a few drops of water in place of the Holy Ghost, and puts a fallible man like ourselves up as the Vicar of Christ on earth; if we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls though we loath and detest their dogmas, and so the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our faces towards Christ when we pray.”

    C. H. Spurgeon
     
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  9. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    I'd say that: Independents: 22,000 denominations + Protestants: 9000 denominations +Marginals: 1600 denominations = 32,600 is close enough to 33,000 for the purpose of making my point.
     
  10. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    That is not what scripture says.
    Scripture says that we were created by God for express purpose of doing good works.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His (God's) workmanship,created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
    So God created us for the purpose of doing good works that HE personally prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
    Neither is that what scripture states.
    It is the command of Jesus that we do good works and has absolutely nothing to do with showing anyone what is going on inside the individual.
    Mat 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." Your good works are for the benefit of others that they see them and glorify God not so that your friends and neighbors my make an assessment of your progress and a Christian.
    We are not "called" to do good works; we are COMMANDED to do them.
    When Jesus gave His commands that we do good works, He did not make any reference to "showing gratitude."
    Jhn 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."
    Jhn 15:12-14 “This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you".
    Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,.."
    Mat 22:37-39 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself "
    Nothing is mandatory for salvation.
    Jesus did it all.
    Every person who has ever lived, is living and who will live in the future has been saved from the wages of sin (death) by Jesus' death and resurrection. All of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1Cor 15: 52-57)
    Physical death and the disintegration of the body is the consequence of sin from which Jesus saved all of mankind by His death and resurrection.

    But, according to the inspired and inerrant sola scriptura, good works ARE mandatory in order to inherit eternal life as stated at Mat 25:31-46; Jhn 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17; and Rev 20:12-13; 22:12-14.

    And, if I might be permitted to be so bold as to point out, Mr. Moderator, you have failed to provide one word of scripture in support of your positions as is required by the ToS. (Ooooops!!!! :shock)

    It kind of reminds me of what Jesus said. (Mat 23:2-3) The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. (Oh NO! Mr. Bill! :thud)

    iakov the fool
     
  11. Knotical

    Knotical Staff Member Moderator

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    I guess that is a rather long winded way of contradicting yourself. Good on ya.
     
  12. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    If you think I contradicted myself then you did not understand anything I posted.
    And you did not acknowledge that you failed to support any of your assertions with scripture as we are required to do.
     
  13. wondering

    wondering Member

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    Hi CWB
    I used to be Catholic and know this as fact...
    The CC believes one can be saved outside the CC.
    They believe other churches do not have the full truth.
    They also believe that if one comes to understand that the CC is the one true church and does not join it, then their soul can be in peril.

    EENS in early Christianity meant that anyone outside the church was lost.
    This is true because there was only One church then. Pre 1,500 AD.
    It was assumed that if one did not belong to the church, he also did not believe in God.
     
  14. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    And you didn't even begin to cover the number of different Baptist denominations...we would have been here all day.
     
  15. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    That's not what the Roman Catholic researcher concluded. Which stats cause you to conclude that the 22,000 independent denominations are Protestants and the 1600 Marginals are Protestant?

    The 33,000 figure is false, a myth, even though Jim explains it away. This is why your stats do not stack up. It comes from the RC researcher's summary above (#46).

    Among the 23,600 “Independents” and “Marginals” (70% of the whole) are large numbers of groups one would have a hard time calling Protestant. They include Mormons (122 denominations), Jehovah’s Witnesses (229 denominations), Masons (28 denominations), Christadelphians (21 denominations) Unitarians (29 denominations), Christian Science (59 denominations), Theosophists (3 more denominations), British Israelites (8 denominations), Prosperity Gospel groups (27 denominations), Oneness Pentecostals (680 denominations), “Hidden Buddhist Believers in Christ” (9 denominations), wandering bishops (12 denominations), Independent Nestorians (5 denominations), occultists (3 denominations), spiritists (20 denominations), Zionists (159 denominations), even “Arab radio/TV network” (19 denominations), “gay/homosexual tradition” (2 denominations), and schismatic Catholics (435 denominations). It is a strange and eclectic list. (See here and here.)​

    Surely you DO NOT consider the Christadelphians, JWs, Mormons, Masons, Christian Science, Oneness Pentecostals, etc to be Christian! This is where your assessment comes undone.
    [​IMG]
    Oz
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    Do the Baptists in USA, Australia and the Democratic Republic of the Congo represent several different denominations? But there are free-will Baptists, Southern Baptists, Reformed Baptists, Arminian Baptists, Charismatic Baptists, etc, etc.
     
  17. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    Jim,

    That's not what the Roman Catholic researcher concluded. Which stats cause you to conclude that the 22,000 independent denominations are Protestants and the 1600 Marginals are Protestants?

    The 33,000 figure is false, a myth, even though you explain it away. This is why your stats do not stack up. It comes from the RC researcher's summary above (#46).

    Among the 23,600 “Independents” and “Marginals” (70% of the whole) are large numbers of groups one would have a hard time calling Protestant. They include Mormons (122 denominations), Jehovah’s Witnesses (229 denominations), Masons (28 denominations), Christadelphians (21 denominations) Unitarians (29 denominations), Christian Science (59 denominations), Theosophists (3 more denominations), British Israelites (8 denominations), Prosperity Gospel groups (27 denominations), Oneness Pentecostals (680 denominations), “Hidden Buddhist Believers in Christ” (9 denominations), wandering bishops (12 denominations), Independent Nestorians (5 denominations), occultists (3 denominations), spiritists (20 denominations), Zionists (159 denominations), even “Arab radio/TV network” (19 denominations), “gay/homosexual tradition” (2 denominations), and schismatic Catholics (435 denominations). It is a strange and eclectic list. (See here and here.)​

    Surely you DO NOT consider the Christadelphians, JWs, Mormons, Masons, Christian Science, Oneness Pentecostals, etc to be Christian! This is where your assessment comes undone.
    [​IMG]
    Oz
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
  18. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    wondering,

    I was reading from Catholic Answers response to what you are discussing. Here is the RC position:

    OBJECTOR ONE: Doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that there can be no salvation outside the Church? Does that mean that no people of other religions can be in heaven with God? What gives the Catholic Church the right to think it can judge whether non-Christians will be saved?

    CATHOLIC: The Catholic dogma is indeed that outside the Church there is no salvation, but your interpretation of what this dogma means is flawed. The Church does not presume to know who will be in heaven with God. It makes no judgments in this matter whatsoever. The ancient phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus(literally, "outside the Church no salvation") has been a widely accepted principle since the earliest days of Christianity. Since the Church has no authority to deny long-established principles, it cannot simply throw out time-honored truths to suit the current fads of thinking (Can Non-Christians Be Saved?)​

    Oz
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
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  19. wondering

    wondering Member

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    Oz,

    What you posted is no answer to the question. Or, it's a very simplistic answer.
    Of course only God knows who is saved --- this is nothing new and something all should believe. It's not up to US to declare who is saved or lost.

    I don't know your source, but if you want to know what the RCC teaches about anything you have to go to a written bull which is written by the Pope in an official manner or to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    Following are paragraphs from both:

    ***************************************************************************

    DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
    LUMEN GENTIUM
    SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
    POPE PAUL VI
    ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

    Chapter II
    On The People of God

    (Paragraph 15)

    15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

    ***********************************************************************************************

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church

    Paragraphs 818 - 819
    [those before and after would also make interesting reading]

    818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

    819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

    **************************************************************************************

    The above is the correct teaching of the Catholic Church.
    Protestants are NOT damned.

     
  20. OzSpen

    OzSpen Member

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    wondering,

    I was responding to your statement: 'EENS in early Christianity meant that anyone outside the church was lost. This is true because there was only One church then. Pre 1,500 AD'. I provided a Catholic organisation's response: 'The Catholic dogma is indeed that outside the Church there is no salvation, but your interpretation of what this dogma means is flawed'.

    It is basic, but it is from Catholic Answers, which is

    one of the nation’s largest lay-run apostolates of Catholic apologetics and evangelization. Its mission statement explains its purpose:

    Catholic Answers is an apostolate dedicated to serving Christ by bringing the fullness of Catholic truth to the world. We help good Catholics become better Catholics, bring former Catholics “home,” and lead non-Catholics into the fullness of the faith (source).​

    Thank you for the further details that you provided about the provision of authority for the RCCC.

    Oz
     
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