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Protestants celebrate Reformation Day, 31 Oct

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#81
Like this?
I swear to uphold and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, to obey all lawful orders of the officers appointed over me and to obey the governor of the state of Florida.
Yes kinda .. And I know what you're getting at .. I look at it like Paul did eating meat sacrificed to idols , he would eat unless some one told him it was sacrificed to idols .. I could take an oath like on a witness stand but If they called me on it as a Christian I would refuse . And it is the reason I have not taken an oath to join any church, they know better ..
 
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#82
It's not an oath but a commitment to agree to ti the faith statements and to support it.no different then agreeing to the tos here which has a sof.
 
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#83
It's not an oath but a commitment to agree to ti the faith statements and to support it.no different then agreeing to the tos here which has a sof.
tbh , I didn't know one way or the other Jason .. Just curious from my experience with a church ..
 
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#84
I find it quite appropriate.
Jim,

Roman Catholic researchers (quoted above) consider that there are approx. 9,000 Protestant denominations. So is your figure based on the Orthodox Church's position?

Oz
 
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#85
Jim,

Roman Catholic researchers (quoted above) consider that there are approx. 9,000 Protestant denominations. So is your figure based on the Orthodox Church's position?

Oz
I think the 22,000 "nondenominationals" would be considered "protestant" if they were asked. They certainly wouldn't call themselves Roman Catholic! And they wouldn't exist without following suit of the 9000 (according to Rome) Protestants.

However, trying to pin down an accurate count totally misses the point.

The point is that, where once there was ONE Church, now there are some 33,000 divisions.

We don't need to count the wounds; we need to heal them.

1Co 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 3:2-3 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Rom 16:17-18 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

Whether it's 1000 divisions or 100,000, rather than wrangling over exactly how many there are, we should weep that the Body of Christ has been so terribly fractured into thousands of bits. The body of Christ has been carved up like a piece of meat and that is considered something to celebrate!!

The kingdom of God is divided against itself.
The Church is tearing itself into little bits.
Who celebrates that? The Church or the devil?

Stop counting!
WEEP!
Fast!
Pray!

Rather than celebrate the shattering of the kingdom of God on earth into tens of thousands of bits, let us join with Christ in His prayer:
I do not pray for these alone,
but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You;
that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
"
John 17:20-21

THAT is my point.


iakov the fool
 
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#86
I think the 22,000 "nondenominationals" would be considered "protestant" if they were asked. They certainly wouldn't call themselves Roman Catholic! And they wouldn't exist without following suit of the 9000 (according to Rome) Protestants.

However, trying to pin down an accurate count totally misses the point.

The point is that, where once there was ONE Church, now there are some 33,000 divisions.

We don't need to count the wounds; we need to heal them.

1Co 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 3:2-3 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Rom 16:17-18 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

Whether it's 1000 divisions or 100,000, rather than wrangling over exactly how many there are, we should weep that the Body of Christ has been so terribly fractured into thousands of bits. The body of Christ has been carved up like a piece of meat and that is considered something to celebrate!!

The kingdom of God is divided against itself.
The Church is tearing itself into little bits.
Who celebrates that? The Church or the devil?

Stop counting!
WEEP!
Fast!
Pray!

Rather than celebrate the shattering of the kingdom of God on earth into tens of thousands of bits, let us join with Christ in His prayer:
I do not pray for these alone,
but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You;
that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
"
John 17:20-21

THAT is my point.

iakov the fool
Jim,

So when was the ONE church shattered?


As we read through 1 Corinthians we can compile a list of these divisive issues. They include (suggested by Roberts n.d.):

• Over-identification with one or another Christian leader (‘When one of you says, "I am a follower of Paul," and another says, "I follow Apollos," aren't you acting just like people of the world?’ (1 Cor 3:4 NIV).
• Too much pride in one’s own spirituality (1 Cor 4:7);
• Sexual immorality (1 Cor 6:9-10)
• Suing fellow Christians in court (1 Cor 6:1-8);
• Prostitution (1 Cor 6:12-20);
• Marriage and divorce (1 Cor 7:6-28);
• Participating in the worship of idols (1 Cor 8);
• Dressing immodestly in the church gatherings (1 Cor 11);
• Selfishness in church gatherings (1 Cor 10:24).
• Interrupting the gatherings with ecstatic utterances (1 Cor 14:6-9).
Etc.

Paul, in my understanding, was not correcting denominational differences but moral, behavioural and spiritual issues throughout 1 Corinthians.

Jim, you don't seem to understand that you and I, Orthodox and Protestant, are one in Christ. Denominational tags do not stop those who are born from above by the Holy Spirit to be one.

It's not the denominational differences that shatter our being one with Christ. Being one indicates our relationship with the Trinitarian God and our relationship with one another. I've had some splendid times of fellowship with you and others on CFnet, even though we may have some beliefs that differ. Most of us believe in the One True Lord God Almighty, creator and sustainer of the universe, and trust in his Son, Jesus Christ, for salvation. Isn't that what makes us one?

Oz

Works consulted

Roberts, M D n.d. Corinth: The Paradigm of Christian Conflict. Beliefnet. Available at: http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...rinth-the-paradigm-of-christian-conflict.html (Accessed 7 November 2017).
 
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#87
So when was the ONE church shattered?
Pentecost.
Paul, in my understanding, was not correcting denominational differences but moral, behavioural and spiritual issues throughout 1 Corinthians.
Then you missed this passage: 1Co 1:11-13 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Jim, you don't seem to understand that you and I, Orthodox and Protestant, are one in Christ. Denominational tags do not stop those who are born from above by the Holy Spirit to be one.
Really??
Then why is there such animosity generated FROM THE PULPIT by Protestant preachers against Roman Catholics and by Pentecostal preachers against those "dead" (non-charismatic) Baptists and by Baptist preachers against the "emotionalism" of those Pentecostals?
I attended a city-wide prayer meeting and as I walked in I heard one of the Protestant pastors who had come to pray say loud enough to be sure I heard him, "Here come the damn Catholics."
Denominational tags do not divide the Body of Christ; those born again believers who wear those tags divide the Body of Christ.

You are closing your eyes to the fracturing of the church.
The fact that denominations even exist is a condemnation of the church leadership who sustain those divisions.
This sin goes back to at least the time of Arius.

iakov the fool
 
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#88
IMHO: Any house which holds to the Creed. (Apostle or Nicene-Constantinople though I think the latter is more accurate)
Jim,

I don't find that emphasis in the NT. This is what I find:

Acts 7:48 (NLT): 'However, the Most High doesn’t live in temples made by human hands. As the prophet says,'

Acts 17:24 (NASB): ' The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands'.

1 Cor 3:16 (NIV): 'Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?'

1 Cor 6:19 (NIRV): 'Don’t you know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit? The Spirit is in you, and you have received the Spirit from God. You do not belong to yourselves'

Gal 4:6 (NRSV): 'And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’

The house/temple of God is the human heart. That's where the Holy Spirit dwells. God does not dwell in temples made by hands [whether they are RC, Orthodox or Protestant].

Oz
 
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#89
Pentecost.

Then you missed this passage: 1Co 1:11-13 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Really??
Then why is there such animosity generated FROM THE PULPIT by Protestant preachers against Roman Catholics and by Pentecostal preachers against those "dead" (non-charismatic) Baptists and by Baptist preachers against the "emotionalism" of those Pentecostals?
I attended a city-wide prayer meeting and as I walked in I heard one of the Protestant pastors who had come to pray say loud enough to be sure I heard him, "Here come the damn Catholics."
Denominational tags do not divide the Body of Christ; those born again believers who wear those tags divide the Body of Christ.

You are closing your eyes to the fracturing of the church.
The fact that denominations even exist is a condemnation of the church leadership who sustain those divisions.
This sin goes back to at least the time of Arius.

iakov the fool
Jim,

So the ONE church was shattered at Pentecost and not at the time of the Reformation?

You think I missed the emphasis of 1 Cor 1:11-13.
No I didn't. In #86 above I noted:
• Over-identification with one or another Christian leader (‘When one of you says, "I am a follower of Paul," and another says, "I follow Apollos," aren't you acting just like people of the world?’ (1 Cor 3:4 NIV).​

I spoke about all those born again being one in Christ, but you emphasised the extremists in some denominations. I'm indeed pleased that I don't use that as a measure of all. I had put a punnet of strawberries in the fridge and had left it there too long. What happened? Some strawberries got mold on them. They were bad 'uns that I couldn't eat. Those bad examples don't stop me from eating strawberries.

I know there are extremists who do what you have stated, but they are not the norm in my experience in Australia. Let's face it: You have been an arch defender of the RCC and Orthodox Church on this forum and exposing what you don't like in Protestantism. Is there a bit of the pot calling the kettle black here?:poke

You say:
You are closing your eyes to the fracturing of the church.
The fact that denominations even exist is a condemnation of the church leadership who sustain those divisions.
This sin goes back to at least the time of Arius.
I am not closing my eyes; I acknowledge the divisions of denominationalism, but there is fracturing in RCC, Orthodox and Protestant denominations. It's not restricted primarily to the Protestants.

The fracturing was there long before Arius. Don't you remember the divisions in the Corinthian church of the first century?

Don't you remember these?
  • Valentinus (2nd century);
  • Marcion of Sinope (2nd century);
  • The heretics Irenaeus exposed in 2nd century;
  • Ebionites (ca. 2nd century)
  • Novatian (3rd century);
  • Paul of Samosata (3rd century);
  • Donatism (ca. 4th century);
  • Pelagius (4th century).
To the above, I could add the false teachings of Gnosticism, Doceticism and asceticism. I've only just begun to expose the divisions in the church over doctrine in the early church fathers.

Oz
 
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#90
I don't find that emphasis in the NT.
During the first 50 years of the Church, they did not have to address the attempts by various people to insert neo-platonist concepts into the teaching of Christ and the apostles resulting in the heresies of Arius or Nestorius and the rest. The creed was composed as a direct response to the heresy that the Logos was less than the Father (an "emination") and that the Holy Spirit was not a hypostasis of the trinity but merely the power of God.

But as to "not finding that emphasis in the NT", please consider:
I believe in God,(1) the Father Almighty, Isaiah 44:6; 45:5
Maker of Heaven and Earth,(2) Genesis 1:1; John 1:1-3; Acts 14:15

And in Jesus Christ,(3) Luke 2:11; John 20:28
His only begotten Son,(4) John 3:16; Proverbs 30:4
our Lord, (5) John 20:28

begotten, not made John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1JN 4:9

of one substance with the Father Col 2:9
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,(6) Luke 1:35
born of the Virgin(7) Mary, Luke 1:27
suffered under Pontius Pilate,(8) Luke 23:23-25
was crucified,(9) John 19:20; Acts 4:10; all Gospels
dead(10) 1 Corinthians 15:3
and buried.(11) 1 Corinthians 15:4

He descended into Hell.(A) 1 Peter 3:18; Luke 23:43

The third day(12) 1 Corinthians 15:4
He arose from the dead,(13) 1 Corinthians 15:4
He ascended into Heaven(14) Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51, Acts 1:11
and is seated at the right hand
of God,(15) the Father Almighty. Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:3

From thence He shall come
to judge the living and the dead.(16) 2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:22 ; Mat 25

I believe in the Holy Spirit,(17) John 15:26; 16:7-8, 13-14; Acts 13:2
the church universal,(18) Galatians 3:26-29

The apostolic church Act 2:42; 2Th 2:15; 2Ti 2:2
the communion of saints,(19) Revelation 19:14; Hebrews 10:25
the forgiveness of sins,(20) Luke 7:48
the resurrection of the body,(21) 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 6:39
and life everlasting.(22) John 10:28; 17:2-3
I spoke about all those born again being one in Christ, but you emphasised the extremists in some denominations.
I see no essential difference between those who were claiming to be of Cephas or of Apollos or of Paul and those declaring themselves to be Baptists or Methodists or Anglican of Pentecostal or whatever. By doing so, born again believers divide the the body of Christ and are in direct conflict with Jesus prayer in which He asked that we, the entire body of Christ" be one as He and the Father are one.
When Pentecostals say that Baptist churches are "dead" because they don't "have the Spirit" and when Baptists say that Pentecostals "have a demon" because they speak in tongues then they are very much indeed dividing the body of Christ as do multiple denominations who don't agree with each other all hold the opinion that the Roman Catholic Church is apostate and will have nothing to do with them, then they certainly do divide the body of Christ.

The is dividing started early with the "party of the Pharisees" who wanted the Gentile believers to be circumcised and to keep the Law of Moses. Paul called the dogs and preachers of "another Gospel" who were anathema.

Nothing has changed. The devil is still doing everything he can do to divide the body of Christ against itself so as to make it ineffective. The result can be seen in Europe and the USA being in a post-Christian decline into paganism and materialism (atheist socialism.)

If you can't see that then I can't show it to you.

iakov the fool
 
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#91
During the first 50 years of the Church, they did not have to address the attempts by various people to insert neo-platonist concepts into the teaching of Christ and the apostles resulting in the heresies of Arius or Nestorius and the rest. The creed was composed as a direct response to the heresy that the Logos was less than the Father (an "emination") and that the Holy Spirit was not a hypostasis of the trinity but merely the power of God.

But as to "not finding that emphasis in the NT", please consider:
I believe in God,(1) the Father Almighty, Isaiah 44:6; 45:5
Maker of Heaven and Earth,(2) Genesis 1:1; John 1:1-3; Acts 14:15

And in Jesus Christ,(3) Luke 2:11; John 20:28
His only begotten Son,(4) John 3:16; Proverbs 30:4
our Lord, (5) John 20:28

begotten, not made John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1JN 4:9

of one substance with the Father Col 2:9
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,(6) Luke 1:35
born of the Virgin(7) Mary, Luke 1:27
suffered under Pontius Pilate,(8) Luke 23:23-25
was crucified,(9) John 19:20; Acts 4:10; all Gospels
dead(10) 1 Corinthians 15:3
and buried.(11) 1 Corinthians 15:4

He descended into Hell.(A) 1 Peter 3:18; Luke 23:43

The third day(12) 1 Corinthians 15:4
He arose from the dead,(13) 1 Corinthians 15:4
He ascended into Heaven(14) Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51, Acts 1:11
and is seated at the right hand
of God,(15) the Father Almighty. Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:3

From thence He shall come
to judge the living and the dead.(16) 2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:22 ; Mat 25

I believe in the Holy Spirit,(17) John 15:26; 16:7-8, 13-14; Acts 13:2
the church universal,(18) Galatians 3:26-29

The apostolic church Act 2:42; 2Th 2:15; 2Ti 2:2
the communion of saints,(19) Revelation 19:14; Hebrews 10:25
the forgiveness of sins,(20) Luke 7:48
the resurrection of the body,(21) 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 6:39
and life everlasting.(22) John 10:28; 17:2-3

I see no essential difference between those who were claiming to be of Cephas or of Apollos or of Paul and those declaring themselves to be Baptists or Methodists or Anglican of Pentecostal or whatever. By doing so, born again believers divide the the body of Christ and are in direct conflict with Jesus prayer in which He asked that we, the entire body of Christ" be one as He and the Father are one.
When Pentecostals say that Baptist churches are "dead" because they don't "have the Spirit" and when Baptists say that Pentecostals "have a demon" because they speak in tongues then they are very much indeed dividing the body of Christ as do multiple denominations who don't agree with each other all hold the opinion that the Roman Catholic Church is apostate and will have nothing to do with them, then they certainly do divide the body of Christ.

The is dividing started early with the "party of the Pharisees" who wanted the Gentile believers to be circumcised and to keep the Law of Moses. Paul called the dogs and preachers of "another Gospel" who were anathema.

Nothing has changed. The devil is still doing everything he can do to divide the body of Christ against itself so as to make it ineffective. The result can be seen in Europe and the USA being in a post-Christian decline into paganism and materialism (atheist socialism.)

If you can't see that then I can't show it to you.

iakov the fool
Jim,

Here you have tried to answer a question that I did not ask. I was responding to another poster who asked which was the house of the Lord.

Your reply was: 'IMHO: Any house which holds to the Creed. (Apostle or Nicene-Constantinople though I think the latter is more accurate'.

My response was in #88.

Here you have provided an exposition to a question I didn't initiate. The question asked was: What is the house of the Lord?

Oz
 
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#92
Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter,
and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
 
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#93
Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter,
and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
What has this to do with the OP?