Pulling The Plug

[Vic C.]

You don't kill to honor someone. If your mother ask you to murder your neighbor, will you honor her will?

That's not even a valid argument because that cannot and never will be a part of a legal living will. Honestly Felix, that is a silly analogy.

But to answer your question, no. :o

 

[Vic C.]

funny how inconsistent that is the generational curse thing is from the law not really mentioned in the nt at all.

Thank you Jason. I thought I was the only one to see that contradiction in the last part of his post.

 

[jasoncran]

personally iam rather taken by that statement.

my grandfather while not perfect was a devout catholic, he and my great aunt went to mass when they could and did live the life, they didnt like me playing with violent toys.(my great aunt) and he did teach me right when i went wrong.

he died from alzhemiers and was found in the fetal position, what sins didnt he repent off?he was a very soft and yet stern when he had to be. he didnt tolerate stuidity from us when we stayed with them. i can count the few times i got spanked from him.

he honored god in his final years. i didnt know it at the time but as a christian now looking back and from what my mom said i am sure that he is in heaven.

 

[felix]

i dont get you.

ye say that we arent under the law yet this well no christian will suffer during death

yet peter was crucified upside down. what do you suggest that a christian when faced with these illness repent every second? serious. i wasnt going to bother with that and its funny you also say that gays and so forth are the reason the land is cursed.

Well there are two reasons why people suffer.
1. Because of their own sins.
2. For the glory of God.

if the law is done then its all done. not parts. god still judges nations does he not?

God punishing every nation has nothing to do with the law of old covenant (or law of Moses). Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't given the law of Moses before God destroyed it. Neither was any law given to the word before God destroyed the entire world by flood except Noah.

funny how inconsistent that is the generational curse thing is from the law not really mentioned in the nt at all.

It does exist in John 9:1-3. The verse does not deny such a curse but that sickness in context is for revealing the glory of God through him.

 

[jasoncran]

Well there are two reasons why people suffer.
1. Because of their own sins.
2. For the glory of God.



God punishing every nation has nothing to do with the law of old covenant (or law of Moses). Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't given the law of Moses before God destroyed it. Neither was any law given to the word before God destroyed the entire world by flood except Noah.

the law ended when jesus said it finished! the law ended when christ died.

sorry that is wrong the law wasnt never contradicted by command or deed by christ when he walked the earth. he did the feasts and passover.

 

[felix]

Thank you Jason. I thought I was the only one to see that contradiction in the last part of his post.

Generational curse does exist. John 9:1-3 does not deny it.

 

[Lewis]

Felix I am sending Nick over your house to sit you down and talk to you.

 

[felix]

Well there are two reasons why people suffer.
1. Because of their own sins.
2. For the glory of God.



God punishing every nation has nothing to do with the law of old covenant (or law of Moses). Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't given the law of Moses before God destroyed it. Neither was any law given to the word before God destroyed the entire world by flood except Noah.

the law ended when jesus said it finished! the law ended when christ died.

sorry that is wrong the law wasnt never contradicted by command or deed by christ when he walked the earth. he did the feasts and passover.

I do agree that Christ did not contradict any law. He created a new covenant with better promises so that we can come under grace and not under law. Bible says He was born under the law as in Gal 4:4.

 

[Lewis]

Felix' look man, the life support machine is man made. And what that lady said was right on the money because 99% of the time when you pull the plug they die. And I see that you are one of those people just can;t see the forest for threes

 

[jasoncran]

Well there are two reasons why people suffer.
1. Because of their own sins.
2. For the glory of God.



God punishing every nation has nothing to do with the law of old covenant (or law of Moses). Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't given the law of Moses before God destroyed it. Neither was any law given to the word before God destroyed the entire world by flood except Noah.

I do agree that Christ did not contradict any law. He created a new covenant with better promises so that we can come under grace and not under law. Bible says He was born under the law as in Gal 4:4.

ok then why would say that generational curses applies to christians?

and uh god didnt tell noah what is right?hmm just because its not written doesnt mean god didnt tell them what he wanted

and noah found grace in the eyes of the lord hmm. that means something.


im sure you will agree with the flood thing.
genesis 6

<SUP>7</SUP>And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

<SUP id=en-KJV-146 class=versenum>8</SUP>But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. <SUP id=en-KJV-147 class=versenum>9</SUP>These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God

hmm god doesnt tell his creation how to come to him? and what he wants remember the bible only tells what one needs to know. theres some things implied. common sense.

 

[Vic C.]

Generational curse does exist. John 9:1-3 does not deny it.

Felix, the children of God, those who have put their faith and trust in Jesus, the Messiah, the one who has atoned for our transgressions by the shedding His blood, cannot be the subject of generational curses.

There are specific cult-like practices that were/are practiced by those supposed Christians which they believe would "cure" them of their generation curses. Paul had this very problem with the Colossians. Sorry, but it is heresy.

Jesus explains the reason for the man's blindness. The Jews required signs. The man was born blind so that Jesus could demonstrate the works of the One who sent Him by healing the man of his blindness, thus glorifying the Father with this miracle.

There's your sign.

I will agree with you when you say we suffer somewhat because of some past, unrepented sin... and of course I would agree with you when you say healing is for the glory of the Lord. But if you say or suggest all this somehow affects our salvation, then I would respectfully disagree.


Lewis, sorry for sidetracking the thread.

 

[theLords]

Felix' look man, the life support machine is man made. And what that lady said was right on the money because 99% of the time when you pull the plug they die. And I see that you are one of those people just can;t see the forest for threes

This is a really good point and I wonder if the argument could be made that man is sinning against God with this technology.

If it weren't for life-support machines, people would pass on to the next life. The people during the Biblical days surely weren't dealing this this issue.

Can it be said that man is arrogantly trying to play God, by usurping His role as Giver of Life, and thus sinning against Him?

Many people who are put on life support machines, have a machine breathing for them, and if they weren't on those respirators their spirits would pass on.

Not arguing for or against, just found your thought unique, Lewis.

Interesting,

 

[jasoncran]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,509688,00.html

 

[Ace1234]

The proper, humane thing to do with an animal dying and in pain is to put it out of its misery. Sometimes it is appropriate to treat a human humanely too.

My father was dying of cancer, fading away in agony despite constant pain killers. A couple of days before he died, the doctor told us that he was not likely to survive the pain killing injection 'probably next Saturday' which gave all the family time to gather together from many miles away. We were all able to spend our last precious time with him before the doctor arrived and, as he predicted, my father died during the injection with us all there. I was sitting on the bed next to him holding him as he died, letting him know by my touch how much he was loved.

The truth was probably that my father had asked the doctor to get the family together and then give him an overdose to stop his years of suffering. I assumed beforehand that was the case and I could have stopped the doctor. I could have forced my father to continue to live in agony but that would have been a terribly wrong thing to do. 'Pulling the plug' in that case was very much the right thing to do.

You're story is about the same as my mother.. She suffered COPD, but did ok with it for years, then got hit with a bout of pneumonia. I have no doubt she was sent home too early as the infection wasn't totally cleared and again got pneumonia badly, in ICU. She was even working fulltime at 70 before this. She went down hill, got it again a third time. In the hospital they had her on so many meds she didn't know who she was, they finally sent her home with hospice, stating she could live a month to a year...She went down hill, terrible to see her suffer so. The last night as she struggled to breathe I could only here her say "somebody kill me". The nurse got her stable and we took her to the hospital. She relapsed and could barely breathe. The doctor came in and highly increased her morphine, she died an hour after that, it was terrible to watch, but it was the right thing. I think often Doctors know the end is near and will increase pain meds to end the suffering.

But do I ever miss her, life hasn't been the same.

 

[Lewis]

Good post, that is why I said early on, that it is a selfish act, to want to prolong their lives on a machine just so that you, the family can feel better. When it was time for them to go months or years ago. 99.9 % of the time God will not revive them because their times is up. Now sometimes God will revive a terminally ill person who should not make it like brain cancer, but He does not do it much.

 

[jasoncran]

i still have mixed feelings at the least.

society defines life as having things and being joyous in that junk whereas god doenst.

case in point, american kids whine about not getting gifts while the ethopians and africans starve.

necessity vs desire.

spurgeon said this." being sick is blessing from god , while being healthy is a gift from god"

i dont fully understand that but that preacher did have a good understand of worship from what i hear and cancer survivors often say the battle they they won was best time in in the lord.

lewis what of the vet who is quadripledig and wants to die? isnt a machine enabling him to be mobile


to the athiests

hawkins what if we euthanised him where would science be since he did and does all his work(can no longer talk and move any limb) with als. he will die.

 

[Lewis]

Well Jason I am only talking about a Life Support machine, that is breathing for them. And these people for instance has been in a bad car accident had have been badly mangled and catastrophic brain damage or something like that. And these people are not coming back, but you the family will keep them on a machine saying there is hope when there is no hope, facing reality in the situation. This person was thrown from the car through the windshield and has extensive upper torso and extensive brain damage and the ( family does not have enough God in them to let her or him go) Or it could be terminal stage 4 cancer and they are in a coma, and there is no chance of her returning to the life she once had and the family will keep her on the machine unnecessarily for months. Now in the case of Terri Schiavo of Florida, that was a long drawn fought out case between the husband and Terri's parents over the removal of a feeding tube. That story is below, so let me ask you was it fair to keep Terri alive like that ? I would like everybody to chime in with a answer. Did her husband have the right to let her die, I think so and plus Terri had told him if something like this ever happens don't let me live like that.

Brain-damaged Florida woman receiving fluids

MICHAEL SCHIAVO

October 22, 2003

• 

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush ordered a feeding tube reinserted into a brain-damaged woman Tuesday afternoon, less than two hours after the Legislature passed a bill allowing him to do so.
Florida lawmakers gave Bush the authority in an effort to keep Terri Schiavo alive nearly a week after the tube was removed at the request of her husband, Michael. The lawmakers' move effectively overturned a court ruling that she be allowed to die.
"Like the tens of thousands of Floridians who have raised their voices in support of Terri Schiavo's right to live, I have been deeply moved by these tragic circumstances," Bush said in a statement issued after he signed the bill. "My thoughts and prayers remain with Terri and those who love her."

 

[felix]

Felix, the children of God, those who have put their faith and trust in Jesus, the Messiah, the one who has atoned for our transgressions by the shedding His blood, cannot be the subject of generational curses.

I do agree this.

 

[jasoncran]

Well Jason I am only talking about a Life Support machine, that is breathing for them. And these people for instance has been in a bad car accident had have been badly mangled and catastrophic brain damage or something like that. And these people are not coming back, but you the family will keep them on a machine saying there is hope when there is no hope, facing reality in the situation. This person was thrown from the car through the windshield and has extensive upper torso and extensive brain damage and the ( family does not have enough God in them to let her or him go) Or it could be terminal stage 4 cancer and they are in a coma, and there is no chance of her returning to the life she once had and the family will keep her on the machine unnecessarily for months. Now in the case of Terri Schiavo of Florida, that was a long drawn fought out case between the husband and Terri's parents over the removal of a feeding tube. That story is below, so let me ask you was it fair to keep Terri alive like that ? I would like everybody to chime in with a answer. Did her husband have the right to let her die, I think so and plus Terri had told him if something like this ever happens don't let me live like that.

Brain-damaged Florida woman receiving fluids

MICHAEL SCHIAVO

October 22, 2003

• 

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush ordered a feeding tube reinserted into a brain-damaged woman Tuesday afternoon, less than two hours after the Legislature passed a bill allowing him to do so.
Florida lawmakers gave Bush the authority in an effort to keep Terri Schiavo alive nearly a week after the tube was removed at the request of her husband, Michael. The lawmakers' move effectively overturned a court ruling that she be allowed to die.
"Like the tens of thousands of Floridians who have raised their voices in support of Terri Schiavo's right to live, I have been deeply moved by these tragic circumstances," Bush said in a statement issued after he signed the bill. "My thoughts and prayers remain with Terri and those who love her."

and when they pulled the tube and water she died in pain slowly.

of dehdyration. lewis i understand your point

but lets be logical here

alzhemiers till cured is of that nature.

you will die either from organ failure

cancers that arent treatable and fast moving but give some time to live life before the final days. i had a former coworker that had that and retired knowing that he was going home to die and died.

 

[mcmurry]

Maybe I misread something but I don't understand where the generational curse thing came in on a thread about pulling the plug.

My father was a serious diabetic-runs in the family. While on dialysis, he had a major stroke. Would have died then and there except a visiting doctor performed CPR until the ambulance arrived. He was on life support for about a week. His doctor said the brain scans revealed no brain activity, and that we were just keeping the body alive temporarily. He also said that the body would slowly die. It was really strange because he would move around in bed like he was uncomfortable or in pain. He even would grimace from time to time. It was explained that this was just nerve reflexes. We made the decision to pull the plug. He body died after about an hour. In Arkansas, the law states that the doctors must try to resuscitate unless a DNR is on file. I look at it like this, if God wants him to live, he will live without the man made machines. If God wants him to die,he will, even with the machines. I believe my father died with the stroke, not when the machines were turned off. Since God know everything, he knew in advance that we would turn the machines off. I think we would have received some indication from God if we were to keep them on. My wife is an ICU RN and I was double checking everything the doctor was telling us. I have no shame or guilt over what we did.