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Questioning Jesus’ Existence

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You asked for 10 words or less. (So I took it literally)
BTW do you post on another forum using a user name beginning with e?
Your posts seem familiar in wording.
:hysterical

Funny! When my brother doesn't want to talk too much about something, he says "tell me in 25 words or less". He's a writer, and a MAN, so what do you expect??
(of course, I pay no attention to him)

So. OK. You're forgiven!!

And no, no other forum. I'm happy to have time for this one!
 
Eph 6:11,12 ... stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness

1 Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world, By this you know the Spirit of God; every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every Spirit that does not confess Jesus is nor from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist

There are lots of records pointing to Jesus Christ, but the anti-Christ must deny all of them. The Devil has to deny it!! So it is not CNN or any group of people, but the spirit that is behind them. It is hardly surprising that we have these stories; in fact if we didn't have these stories you would have to question the accuracy of the Bible. But we do have them, despite the historical records, so the regular questioning of the historical information proves the Bible is correct, though if you are the person questioning it you are certainly not going to understand the obvious flaw in your logic because of the spirit that has control of you.

Still, Jesus came to set the captives free, so we get another opportunity to help the Lord every time one of these stories come out. It is amazing out the Lord uses what the devil does and turns it to good for those that love Him, but are we seeing these stories as opportunities???
 
In Misquoting Jesus Ehrman recounts becoming a born-again, fundamentalist Christian
as a teenager. He recounts being certain in his youthful enthusiasm that God had inspired
the wording of the Bible and protected its texts from all error.
His desire to understand the
original words of the Bible led him to the study of ancient languages and also textual criticism.
During his graduate studies, however, he became convinced that there are contradictions and
discrepancies in the biblical manuscripts that could not be harmonized or reconciled. He
remained a liberal Christian for 15 years but later became an agnostic atheist after struggling
with the philosophical problems of evil and suffering [1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman


Miscellaneous Points:

♦ . . . "many antichrists have arisen . . They went out from us, but they didn’t belong to us;
for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they
might be revealed that none of them belong to us." I John chapter 2 [Its a good thing for
Christendom that Ehrman flies his true flag.]

♦ Ehrman says de facto, "I used to be one of you before I saw the truth and became
an agnostic atheist."
However this is a sword that "cuts both ways." Legion is the number of Christians
worldwide/historywide that can truthfully say, "I used to be one of you agnostic
atheists before I saw the truth and became a Christian."

♦ "All the Father gives me will come to me" said the Lord Jesus and this reality will take
place regardless of what Bart D. Ehrman thinks, says, or does. Bart D. Ehrman, long term,
and in the Grand Scheme Of Things, is irrelevant.

♦ Great Opening Post.
Jag,
I just wanted to say that there's another thread going on about the historicity of the bible.
Is the bible a history book? Or is it a spiritual book with historical facts in it?

The fact is that it is NOT a history book. When we take to be such, problems follow. Such as the problems that Ehrman encountered when he tried to reconcile the N.T. books. 4 different persons wrote the gospels. How could they possibly all be the same? How could they possibly agree with each other in every detail?

They cannot. They were not written to be historical, but to make us remember Jesus by writing everything down and to make us have faith in Him as the Son of God, as the Messiah to the Jews, and, in the book of Luke, a savior also to the gentiles.

I think of many, as you've stated, instead, who went searching for discrepancies and proof that the resurrection did not occur and instead became fervent believers. Right now I can think of Josh McDowell.

The N.T. is a spiritual book and must be read in spirit - not to learn history.

As far as evil and suffering are concerned--- we read different explanations. No one really knows the answer.
It's like we are put here in this world system and God will not do miracles every moment and we must accept this.
Our task is to choose God or choose satan. We can know nothing else as to the why of evil.

What we can know for sure is that God loves us.
 
Eph 6:11,12 ... stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness

1 Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world, By this you know the Spirit of God; every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every Spirit that does not confess Jesus is nor from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist

There are lots of records pointing to Jesus Christ, but the anti-Christ must deny all of them. The Devil has to deny it!! So it is not CNN or any group of people, but the spirit that is behind them. It is hardly surprising that we have these stories; in fact if we didn't have these stories you would have to question the accuracy of the Bible. But we do have them, despite the historical records, so the regular questioning of the historical information proves the Bible is correct, though if you are the person questioning it you are certainly not going to understand the obvious flaw in your logic because of the spirit that has control of you.

Still, Jesus came to set the captives free, so we get another opportunity to help the Lord every time one of these stories come out. It is amazing out the Lord uses what the devil does and turns it to good for those that love Him, but are we seeing these stories as opportunities???
How could we use them as an opportunity?
They take away the faith of many of our weak brothers, or new Christians.

I agree that it's the spirit behind the stories.
We fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities...
 
THis kind of rubbish sells books, fills seminars, and fills empty air for CNN and other similar entertainment networks targeting people who don't know any better.

The issue is not that they continue to publish such rot decade after decade and century after century.

The issue is why is there an audience to listen to or watch or read this junk? Why hasn't the CHURCH been so effective in preaching AND LIVING the Gospel that no one in their right mind would give such nonsense 5 seconds of their time?

There will always be detractors, liars, frauds, and scoundrels who make a living peddling that garbage.

The answer is not to try to silence them.

The answer is to preach the gospel at all times and, if necessary, to use words.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
(Mat 5:16)

:amen
 
One could die for a lie? Who? Give me one example.

I don't think that was the point. I understood Wondering said or inferred that the truth of Christianity is demonstrated by the many martyrs for the faith. They wouldn't submit to martyrdom if Jesus and Christianity were legends and not true.

Death for proclaiming the Gospel has been standard fare throughout church history. Here's a 'List of Christian martyrs'.

Tim Kelleher wrote, '"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church" [Tertullian]. It is also a fire that purges lies' (source).

Oz
 
Last edited:
Jag,
I just wanted to say that there's another thread going on about the historicity of the bible.
Is the bible a history book? Or is it a spiritual book with historical facts in it?

The fact is that it is NOT a history book. When we take to be such, problems follow. Such as the problems that Ehrman encountered when he tried to reconcile the N.T. books. 4 different persons wrote the gospels. How could they possibly all be the same? How could they possibly agree with each other in every detail?

They cannot. They were not written to be historical, but to make us remember Jesus by writing everything down and to make us have faith in Him as the Son of God, as the Messiah to the Jews, and, in the book of Luke, a savior also to the gentiles.

I think of many, as you've stated, instead, who went searching for discrepancies and proof that the resurrection did not occur and instead became fervent believers. Right now I can think of Josh McDowell.

The N.T. is a spiritual book and must be read in spirit - not to learn history.

As far as evil and suffering are concerned--- we read different explanations. No one really knows the answer.
It's like we are put here in this world system and God will not do miracles every moment and we must accept this.
Our task is to choose God or choose satan. We can know nothing else as to the why of evil.

What we can know for sure is that God loves us.

Wondering,

Distinguished Professor of New Testament at Denver Seminary, Dr Craig Blomberg, disagrees with you profoundly - and so do I.

If Jesus was not a historical person who did things in history, we are in deep trouble with the authenticity of who he was when on earth. Did he really do actions within history, die and rise again in history, or were these spiritual events? It was historical, but with profound theological and spiritual implications.

See Blomberg's, The Historical Reliability of the Gospels (InterVarsity 2007). Dr Blomberg does a live presentation online, 'The Historical Reliability of the Gospels' (Dr Craig Blomberg, YouTube).

I urge you to read, 'An Interview with Craig Blomberg on Jesus and the Reliability of the Gospels' (The Gospel Coalition 2012).

Another NT researcher, Dr Gary Habermas, speaks of 'the historical richness of the Gospel accounts' in his article, 'Recent Perspectives on the Reliability of the Gospels'.

Blomberg concluded his study on the historical reliability of the Gospels with this statement:

The gospels may be accepted as trustworthy accounts of what Jesus did and said. One cannot hope to prove the accuracy of every detail on purely historical grounds alone; there is simply not enough data available for that. But as investigation proceeds, the evidence becomes sufficient for one to declare that what can be checked is accurate, so that it is entirely proper to believe what cannot be checked is probably accurate as well. Other conclusions, widespread though they are, seem not to stem from even-handed historical analysis but from religious or philosophical prejudice. As the Roman historian, A. N. Sherwin-White, once marvelled, "it is astonishing that while Graeco-Roman historians have been growing in confidence, the twentieth-century study of the Gospel narratives, starting from no less promising material, has taken so gloomy a turn." Such gloom should be replaced by a radiant endorsement of the historical reliability of the four gospels....

It has been argued here that the gospels must be subjected to the same type of historical scrutiny given to other writings of antiquity but that they can stand up to such scrutiny admirably.... The gospels may therefore be trusted as historically reliable (Blomberg 1987:254, 255, 257).​

As for Bart Ehrman, I don't have the time or space to address his issues with regard to the historicity of the Gospels. Therefore, I recommend this critique of Ehrman's recent foray into this topic, 'Did the Early Christians Get the Jesus Story Wrong?' (The Gospel Coalition 2016).

Oz

Works cited

Blomberg, C 1987. The Historical Reliability of the Gospels. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press.
 
Wondering,

Distinguished Professor of New Testament at Denver Seminary, Dr Craig Blomberg, disagrees with you profoundly - and so do I.

If Jesus was not a historical person who did things in history, we are in deep trouble with the authenticity of who he was when on earth. Did he really do actions within history, die and rise again in history, or were these spiritual events? It was historical, but with profound theological and spiritual implications.

See Blomberg's, The Historical Reliability of the Gospels (InterVarsity 2007). Dr Blomberg does a live presentation online, 'The Historical Reliability of the Gospels' (Dr Craig Blomberg, YouTube).

I urge you to read, 'An Interview with Craig Blomberg on Jesus and the Reliability of the Gospels' (The Gospel Coalition 2012).

Another NT researcher, Dr Gary Habermas, speaks of 'the historical richness of the Gospel accounts' in his article, 'Recent Perspectives on the Reliability of the Gospels'.

Blomberg concluded his study on the historical reliability of the Gospels with this statement:

The gospels may be accepted as trustworthy accounts of what Jesus did and said. One cannot hope to prove the accuracy of every detail on purely historical grounds alone; there is simply not enough data available for that. But as investigation proceeds, the evidence becomes sufficient for one to declare that what can be checked is accurate, so that it is entirely proper to believe what cannot be checked is probably accurate as well. Other conclusions, widespread though they are, seem not to stem from even-handed historical analysis but from religious or philosophical prejudice. As the Roman historian, A. N. Sherwin-White, once marvelled, "it is astonishing that while Graeco-Roman historians have been growing in confidence, the twentieth-century study of the Gospel narratives, starting from no less promising material, has taken so gloomy a turn." Such gloom should be replaced by a radiant endorsement of the historical reliability of the four gospels....

It has been argued here that the gospels must be subjected to the same type of historical scrutiny given to other writings of antiquity but that they can stand up to such scrutiny admirably.... The gospels may therefore be trusted as historically reliable (Blomberg 1987:254, 255, 257).​

As for Bart Ehrman, I don't have the time or space to address his issues with regard to the historicity of the Gospels. Therefore, I recommend this critique of Ehrman's recent foray into this topic, 'Did the Early Christians Get the Jesus Story Wrong?' (The Gospel Coalition 2016).

Oz

Works cited

Blomberg, C 1987. The Historical Reliability of the Gospels. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press.
Hi Oz,
It's not that we disagree. I think it's just that I don't make myself be understood properly - perhaps.

I agree with all you've said above.

I believe the gospels can be trusted. I believe Jesus is a historical person. I agree that the history in the gospels is true and correct. I believe Jesus did things in history, died, was buried and resurrected and spent more time here before ascending to the Father.

I'm not even trying to prove anything more as you state in your paragraph 7. I require no proof as God revealed Himself to me.

Let's see if I can just make this clear to you because we've discussed this before.
Tell me what I'm saying wrong here:

The bible IS NOT a history book like...
"The History of WWII".

It is a book about God's relationship to man that CONTAINS historical facts.

The historical facts CAN BE TRUSTED.
 
Hi Oz,
It's not that we disagree. I think it's just that I don't make myself be understood properly - perhaps.

I agree with all you've said above.

I believe the gospels can be trusted. I believe Jesus is a historical person. I agree that the history in the gospels is true and correct. I believe Jesus did things in history, died, was buried and resurrected and spent more time here before ascending to the Father.

I'm not even trying to prove anything more as you state in your paragraph 7. I require no proof as God revealed Himself to me.

Let's see if I can just make this clear to you because we've discussed this before.
Tell me what I'm saying wrong here:

The bible IS NOT a history book like...
"The History of WWII".

It is a book about God's relationship to man that CONTAINS historical facts.

The historical facts CAN BE TRUSTED.

Wondering,

In my view you are creating a false dilemma with your statement:

The bible IS NOT a history book like...
"The History of WWII".​

It is not history vs. relationship with God for human beings.

Biblical faith essentially is a commitment to or relationship with God who has intervened in history in such a way that will allow that intervention to be examined by the techniques of historical study used to investigate 'the history of WW II'.

History does not allow Christians to prove everything with absolute certainty, just as all things from history are not known with 100% surety because we were not there to capture all things.

We can show that the Gospels, for example, are historically accurate as history, using the tools of historiography. We can only argue in terms of probability with all history, whether that is ancient history or history from a year ago.

Here is one of the significant issues regarding a portrait of Jesus. If the Jesus discovered through historical research were not like the Jesus of the Gospels, that would eat away at my faith.

So, the Gospels deal with history. If the essential claims of the early church's description of Jesus were falsified by historical research, that would significantly affect my faith as it would make the actions of the historical Jesus questionable.

In saying this, I'm not stating that the Holy Spirit does not work through the Scriptures which can be authenticated by historical methodology.

I can check the historicity of the Bible with the same tools that I use to check the historicity of what happened during WW II. What's the point of using those historical tools on the Bible if it isn't history. The Psalms create a different issue because they are poetry.

Oz
 
Hi Oz,
It's not that we disagree. I think it's just that I don't make myself be understood properly - perhaps.

I agree with all you've said above.

I believe the gospels can be trusted. I believe Jesus is a historical person. I agree that the history in the gospels is true and correct. I believe Jesus did things in history, died, was buried and resurrected and spent more time here before ascending to the Father.

I'm not even trying to prove anything more as you state in your paragraph 7. I require no proof as God revealed Himself to me.

Let's see if I can just make this clear to you because we've discussed this before.
Tell me what I'm saying wrong here:

The bible IS NOT a history book like...
"The History of WWII".

It is a book about God's relationship to man that CONTAINS historical facts.

The historical facts CAN BE TRUSTED.

The Bible (as I'm sure you know) isn't a book but a collection of books. The Bible isn't a book on poetry but there are the poetry books for example. Here's how one site breaks it down:

The Old Testament can be broken down into the following categories:
  1. The Pentateuch - Genesis to Deuteronomy
  2. History - Joshua to Esther
  3. Poetry and Wisdom - Job to Song of Solomon
  4. The Prophets - Isaiah to Malachi
The New Testament can be broken down into these categories:
  1. History - Matthew to Acts
  2. Letters - Romans to Jude
  3. Apocalypse - Revelation
This is the approach I was taught when I attended Bible college.

Here's another: http://www.biblecharts.org/thebible/divisionsofoldtestamentbooks.pdf
http://www.biblecharts.org/thebible/divisionsofnewtestamentbooks.pdf
http://www.biblecharts.org/thebible.html

:nod
 
From Breakpoint by John Stonestreet

Excerpt:

Every year around March and December, this and other news outlets exhume the long-dead thesis that the New Testament is based on a mythological figure, not a Man who really lived, died, and rose from the grave two-thousand years ago. This year, CNN even republished an article from 2012 at CNN.com. In the piece, entitled, “Decoding Jesus: Separating Man from Myth,” John Blake suggests that Christ’s historical existence is an open question. CNN featured it at the top of their homepage as part of the push for their new series, “Finding Jesus: Faith, Fact, Forgery.”

Blake quotes the likes of Timothy Freke, author of “Jesus Mysteries” and former Baptist pastor Robert Price, author of “Deconstructing Jesus,” who both claim that the Gospels are forgeries or misunderstood allegories, and that the story of Jesus was copied from legends about pagan deities.

“In the age of the Internet and self-publishing,” writes Blake, “these arguments have gained enough traction that some of the world’s leading New Testament scholars feel compelled to publicly take them on.”

Now let me be clear: This is the very definition of fake news: No credible historian believes Jesus is a myth. Even among skeptics of religion, that theory has been abandoned. None other than Bart Ehrman, the agnostic biblical scholar and fierce critic of the New Testament, calls Jesus-deniers Internet conspiracy theorists trying to sell books, and compares them to Holocaust-deniers.

Dominic Crossan, another scholar who would never pass for an evangelical apologist, says he’s “certain” that Christ existed, and chalks up alternative theories to disdain for the Prince of Peace. Keep in mind, neither Ehrman or Crosson would affirm anything historically Christian, such as that Jesus was not just a man but God—that He performed miracles, died for the sins of the world, and rose from the dead for our justification. But if anything, this fact makes their agreement on His existence even more powerful, not less.

Remainder of the article here:

http://breakpoint.org/2017/03/questioning-jesus-existence/


Posters note: Yes it is that time of year, and we as Christians should be always be ready to defend the faith.

1 Peter 3:

“And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled. 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. 17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

Pegasus,

I wrote my PhD dissertation (dissertation only in the British system) on John Dominic Crossan's presuppositions concerning Jesus' resurrection. He claimed the resurrection was an apparition.

You are correct in that he does not deny the existence of the person of Jesus. However, he's a big time postmodern deconstructionist in his view of the Gospels. Of course, that means he is opposed to anything that is supernatural in the Gospels. They could not have happened as the intervention of God/Jesus in the miracle stories in the Gospels.

Oz
 
2 things you never want to be in life, in reality.

1.) A Bible corrector.

2.) An Anti-God scholar

Maybe you remember "Peter Jennings?...Use to be a News Anchor for one of the big 3.?
Used his position to create a documentary that castigated Jesus.
Peter died soon after.

Any of you remember Christopher Hitchens?.....this wildly intellectual Brit that use to be on a lot of the talking head News shows?
His was an amazing mind.
But he decided that he needed to write books that "exposed the LIE that is God and Christ".
Got throat cancer and died like a dog.
One of the most evil things ive ever seen was Anderson Cooper, (CNN), went to Hitchens home, just before he died (LIVE interview)... and said..."now you are not going to try to ask Jesus to save you ...right???.......you are not suddenly now a a believer are you?...
And of course Hitchen's stupid PRIDE had to deny the Lord.
Anderson Cooper sent him to hell just as sure as you are sitting there reading what i just said.
And he'll be following him soon enough.
Anderson Cooper is also a Homosexual, in case you didnt know it..

You reap what you sow, and if you decidely sow against the Almighty, you will find yourself in an almighty mess, unsolvable, unbearable, and final.

"God is not mocked".
 
A lot of people, of all belief persuasions, die of cancer or something else that takes their life. Like my 24 year old nephew who graduated from Moody Bible Institute only to die in a fiery plane crash at the age of 24. Just married 6 months. Loved the Lord. Or my brother with stage 4 lung cancer. Not yet 60. Prognosis not good. A lifetime a Christian. I don't think Jennings or Hitchens were killed by God, if that is what you are suggesting. And Anderson Cooper had zero to do with Hitchen's eternal fate.

God does not take delight in the death of sinners. Nor should we.
"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore, turn yourselves, and live ye."--Ezek. 18:23, 32.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"--Ezek. 33:11.

Perhaps Kidron I am misreading your post. If so, I apologize if I'm coming across in a bad way. I just needed to add my .o2 to your post. Firstly it seems out of place for the OP (as is mine) but it also it reads ungenerously.

For me, it's sad that with all the exposure Hitchens had with the gospel (he traveled with a Christian apologist as they went from place to place debating about God - they were friends and Christopher was a good companion to the other man. I forget his name) he was never convinced of its Truth. He held to his unbelief until the end but who knows of the inner wrestlings he may have had along the way?
 
From Breakpoint by John Stonestreet

Excerpt:

Every year around March and December, this and other news outlets exhume the long-dead thesis that the New Testament is based on a mythological figure, not a Man who really lived, died, and rose from the grave two-thousand years ago. This year, CNN even republished an article from 2012 at CNN.com. In the piece, entitled, “Decoding Jesus: Separating Man from Myth,” John Blake suggests that Christ’s historical existence is an open question. CNN featured it at the top of their homepage as part of the push for their new series, “Finding Jesus: Faith, Fact, Forgery.”

Blake quotes the likes of Timothy Freke, author of “Jesus Mysteries” and former Baptist pastor Robert Price, author of “Deconstructing Jesus,” who both claim that the Gospels are forgeries or misunderstood allegories, and that the story of Jesus was copied from legends about pagan deities.

“In the age of the Internet and self-publishing,” writes Blake, “these arguments have gained enough traction that some of the world’s leading New Testament scholars feel compelled to publicly take them on.”

Now let me be clear: This is the very definition of fake news: No credible historian believes Jesus is a myth. Even among skeptics of religion, that theory has been abandoned. None other than Bart Ehrman, the agnostic biblical scholar and fierce critic of the New Testament, calls Jesus-deniers Internet conspiracy theorists trying to sell books, and compares them to Holocaust-deniers.

Dominic Crossan, another scholar who would never pass for an evangelical apologist, says he’s “certain” that Christ existed, and chalks up alternative theories to disdain for the Prince of Peace. Keep in mind, neither Ehrman or Crosson would affirm anything historically Christian, such as that Jesus was not just a man but God—that He performed miracles, died for the sins of the world, and rose from the dead for our justification. But if anything, this fact makes their agreement on His existence even more powerful, not less.

Remainder of the article here:

http://breakpoint.org/2017/03/questioning-jesus-existence/


Posters note: Yes it is that time of year, and we as Christians should be always be ready to defend the faith.

1 Peter 3:

“And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled. 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. 17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
As a born again believer. I believe Christ in the Scriptures. I rarely read other publications of what someone else thinks about doctrines and if they are correct or not. Since I learned from Christ Spirit, I need no confirmation just fellowship and encouragement with other born again believers contending for the faith. This is not a statement of pride or notoriety,But of a sound and grounded Spirit in us, being led by Christ. He wants to lead us, not be left behind.
 
As a born again believer. I believe Christ in the Scriptures. I rarely read other publications of what someone else thinks about doctrines and if they are correct or not. Since I learned from Christ Spirit, I need no confirmation just fellowship and encouragement with other born again believers contending for the faith. This is not a statement of pride or notoriety,But of a sound and grounded Spirit in us, being led by Christ. He wants to lead us, not be left behind.

The OP addresses the yearly attempts of the media to deny even the historical Christ.

Understanding nothing would shake your beliefs, we are still called upon to "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.."(1 Peter 3:15).
 
2 things you never want to be in life, in reality.

1.) A Bible corrector.

2.) An Anti-God scholar

Maybe you remember "Peter Jennings?...Use to be a News Anchor for one of the big 3.?
Used his position to create a documentary that castigated Jesus.
Peter died soon after.

Any of you remember Christopher Hitchens?.....this wildly intellectual Brit that use to be on a lot of the talking head News shows?
His was an amazing mind.
But he decided that he needed to write books that "exposed the LIE that is God and Christ".
Got throat cancer and died like a dog.
One of the most evil things ive ever seen was Anderson Cooper, (CNN), went to Hitchens home, just before he died (LIVE interview)... and said..."now you are not going to try to ask Jesus to save you ...right???.......you are not suddenly now a a believer are you?...
And of course Hitchen's stupid PRIDE had to deny the Lord.
Anderson Cooper sent him to hell just as sure as you are sitting there reading what i just said.
And he'll be following him soon enough.
Anderson Cooper is also a Homosexual, in case you didnt know it..

You reap what you sow, and if you decidely sow against the Almighty, you will find yourself in an almighty mess, unsolvable, unbearable, and final.

"God is not mocked".

Kidron,

In giving these examples, you have committed the logical fallacy known as Appeal to Consequences of a Belief.

This kind of reasoning is erroneous because the consequences of a belief have no bearing on whether the belief is true or false. We have to defend the truth or falsehood of the actual belief.

Oz
 
A lot of people, of all belief persuasions, die of cancer or something else that takes their life. Like my 24 year old nephew who graduated from Moody Bible Institute only to die in a fiery plane crash at the age of 24. Just married 6 months. Loved the Lord. Or my brother with stage 4 lung cancer. Not yet 60. Prognosis not good. A lifetime a Christian. I don't think Jennings or Hitchens were killed by God, if that is what you are suggesting. And Anderson Cooper had zero to do with Hitchen's eternal fate.

God does not take delight in the death of sinners. Nor should we.
"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore, turn yourselves, and live ye."--Ezek. 18:23, 32.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"--Ezek. 33:11.

Perhaps Kidron I am misreading your post. If so, I apologize if I'm coming across in a bad way. I just needed to add my .o2 to your post. Firstly it seems out of place for the OP (as is mine) but it also it reads ungenerously.

For me, it's sad that with all the exposure Hitchens had with the gospel (he traveled with a Christian apologist as they went from place to place debating about God - they were friends and Christopher was a good companion to the other man. I forget his name) he was never convinced of its Truth. He held to his unbelief until the end but who knows of the inner wrestlings he may have had along the way?

Papa,

Christopher Hitchens debated leading Christian apologist, William Lane Craig, on the existence of God. He also debated his own brother, Peter Hitchens, who is a Christian.

Oz
 
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The OP addresses the yearly attempts of the media to deny even the historical Christ.

Understanding nothing would shake your beliefs, we are still called upon to "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.."(1 Peter 3:15).

Pegasus,

I agree. In my research, I've found the following confirmation of Jesus' existence:

What’s the evidence for Jesus outside of the Bible?

In Roman historian, Cornelius Tacitus (ca. A.D. 55-120), The Annals, he wrote:

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man’s cruelty, that they were being destroyed (ch. 15).​

Another Roman historian, Suetonius, lived ca. A.D. 120 wrote: “Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition” (The Twelve Caesars: The Life of Nero, ch. 16).

Suetonius also wrote in his The Twelve Caesars: Life of Claudius: “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome” (ch. 25).

Pliny, the Younger, writing to the emperor telling of his achievements as the governor of Bithynia, wrote (ca. A. D. 112):

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food‹but food of an ordinary and innocent kind (Epistles, book 10, letter 96, To the Emperor Trajan).​

There are other quotes from the Greek satirist, Lucian, in the second century. Samaritan-born historian, Thallus (ca. A.D. 52, quoted in Julius Africanus ca. A.D. 221) has something to say about the darkness at the time of the crucifixion.

There is a letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, written after A.D. 73, which is in the British Museum, which is a father writing to his son in prison. He compares the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras, and Jesus.

This is some historical information for your consideration. It is taken from my article, Who is Jesus and why did he die?

Oz
 
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How could we use them as an opportunity?
They take away the faith of many of our weak brothers, or new Christians.

I agree that it's the spirit behind the stories.
We fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities...

If someone brings up an idea that is incorrect, it gives us an opportunity to correct, set straight, and point people to the Lord Jesus Christ. And we must remember our faith is not based on reason but on hearing the Lord, just like it is written, Rm 10:17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

A person might reason that God could exist and seek Him thus find Him. But it is the hearing Him for yourself that gives us the faith the Jesus Christ does indeed exist, (believe).

So if someone thinks Jesus never existed and announces it, we know we have someone that needs to know Him, and can and should then point out the reality that He does indeed exist and indeed can be heard from. We are not preaching the Jesus Christ existed, but that He exists now and is there for us. Still, if someone doesn't know He existed in the past they certainly don't know Him personally in the present, and we have an opportunity to correct that. :)
 
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