Bible Study Re-Imaging Repentance

[FreeGrace]

blueeyeliner,

8-) Thx. it was just that no one responded to any of the posts that I've made here. I don't think that either paxigoth or evanman has even acknowledged any of them. And I specifically addressed them in the posts.

But tell me, if you feel comfortable doing that, what do you think of paxigoth's defn. of repentance as "changing the mind" rather than "turning from sin?"

BTW, I don't like to "argue" and get into heated debates on forums - I'm just curious. (I'll definitely share my opinion on things, and support it, but I want to hear what others have to say - it's like iron sharpening iron.)

Thx,

FG

 

[evanman]

Repentance begins in the inner man, however it doesn't just stay there, it manifests itself in action.

A truly repentant person, one who has received Christ, will go through a change of life.

This is why Paul stated:

Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

We are to turn from idolatry

1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

The truth of a person's belief is measured by the actions that these move a person to do.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

[FreeGrace]

A truly repentant person, one who has received Christ, will go through a change of life.

FG - Amen.

This is why Paul stated:

Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

FG - Yes, of course. Anyone in Christ is a new creature - the old has passed away. And yes, we are to live as children of light.

But we gain eternal life solely based on faith - we are then regenerated. Those actions of a changed person are a response - not a requirement for becoming or remaining a child of God.

We are to turn from idolatry
[quote:2b830]1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

FG - The Thessalonian believers had turned to God as the only true God. They had rejected those idols as not real Gods. This is an expression oftheir faith in Christ - in their acceptance of Him as the Son of God. Repentance is not "turning."

The truth of a person's belief is measured by the actions that these move a person to do.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

FG - IMO that's not what this is saying. It is not talking about a type or kind of faith. It is talking about the necessity for works.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

FG - I don't agree that works are required for our salvation. Paul made that very clear. We are justified by faith alone.
[/quote:2b830]
Thx,

FG

 

[Guest]

blueeyeliner,

8-) Thx. it was just that no one responded to any of the posts that I've made here. I don't think that either paxigoth or evanman has even acknowledged any of them. And I specifically addressed them in the posts.

But tell me, if you feel comfortable doing that, what do you think of paxigoth's defn. of repentance as "changing the mind" rather than "turning from sin?"

BTW, I don't like to "argue" and get into heated debates on forums - I'm just curious. (I'll definitely share my opinion on things, and support it, but I want to hear what others have to say - it's like iron sharpening iron.)

Thx,

FG

:Fade-color I really believe that paxigoth and evanman are good people
and that they may not have gotten around to answering your questions
because they may have been too busy or something may have come up?
paxi and yourself are both right in the definition. You have a change of
mind,or heart that leads you to repent to God.

 

[evanman]

Free Grace, you were addressing the Issue of Repentance. Paxigoth originally raised the subject by posting this thread in the first place.

FG - The Thessalonian believers had turned to God as the only true God. They had rejected those idols as not real Gods. This is an expression oftheir faith in Christ - in their acceptance of Him as the Son of God. Repentance is not "turning."

The greek word translated as "Repent" is "metanohson" which comes from the root word "metanoeo".

"Metanoeo" means a "reversal of a decision", literally "Make a U-turn".

When a person repents they make a reversal in their thinking and turn away from the direction they are taking!


The Hebrew word for "Repent" is the word "Shuwb" which means "To turn back".

So Repentance IS a "turning away".

Ex 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

Here the word for "Turn" is the word "shuwb".

 

[FreeGrace]

Free Grace, you were addressing the Issue of Repentance. Paxigoth originally raised the subject by posting this thread in the first place.

FG - Yeah, I know, and he did a great job of it.

FG - The Thessalonian believers had turned to God as the only true God. They had rejected those idols as not real Gods. This is an expression of their faith in Christ - in their acceptance of Him as the Son of God. Repentance is not "turning."

The greek word translated as "Repent" is "metanohson" which comes from the root word "metanoeo".

FG - Well, the verse you quoted earlier was 1 Thess. 1:9. There most Bibles translate the word you're referring to as "turned," not "repented." But actually, it's "epistrefo" there - which is not related to "metanoeo." We do not find metanoia/metanoeo in that passage. You probably meant another passage. But FYI, metanoia/metanoeo is not used in either 1st or 2nd Thessalonians. Also, metamelomai - a word sometimes translated as "repent" or "to change the mind," but not related to metanoia/metanoeo is also not in the Thessalonian letters. I looked it up.

"Metanoeo" means a "reversal of a decision", literally "Make a U-turn".

FG - OK, that's what I was wondering. Blueeyeliner thinks you agree with paxigoth's and my definition. You don't.

You see, this is not what either BGAD or L&S, the top two lexicons, say metanoia means/metanoeo means. It means literally "to change your mind." A "reversal of a decison" is OK, but not the "U-turn stuff - too many preachers have said that. Not true.

Personally, I like to add that in general repentance in the NT has to do with sin, though not exclusively. And as such, when someone (under conviction by the Spirit) recognizes his sin and changes his mind about it, the natural thing will be a desire (in his heart/mind) to change his actions in that regard. I think we're in pretty close agreement there. But metanoia has to do with the mind. As such, if someone was stirred up to stop doing this or that, yet they didn't follow through on their intentions (Happens to all of us, right?) it still would represent "repentance."

But metanoeo does not mean to "turn from sin - to make a U-turn." It may seem like a fine line of distinction, but IMO it's important to remember that the focus of metanoia/metanoeo is our mind.

When a person repents they make a reversal in their thinking and turn away from the direction they are taking!

FG - Yes, in general, they do. But the metanoeo is actually the reversal of thinking. The "natural result" are corresponding actions. IMO it's important to keep that distinction. Otherwise, we are liable to turn our salvation into one of works. The gospel being that we are saved by faith PLUS good works instead of by faith which naturally results in a changed life, in those works. The change in actions is not what causes us to be born again... the change in thinking is - that is, if we recognize our need for Christ.

The Hebrew word for "Repent" is the word "Shuwb" which means "To turn back".

So Repentance IS a "turning away".

FG - Well, I don't know much Hebrew. What I've read is that the word actually in Hebrew also means to change your mind. Numbers 23:19 says, "God is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man that He should repent ("change his mind"). Has He said and will He not do it? And has He spoken and will He not bring it to pass?" Many Bible actually have "change His mind" there. Perhaps we're talking about different Hebrew words.

Here's what Matthew Henry's commentary on it says:
[quote:36143]v. 19. Men change their minds, and therefore break their words; they lie, because they repent. But God does neither. He never changes his mind, and therefore never recalls his promise. Balaam had owned (v. 8) that he could not alter God’s counsel, and thence he infers here that God himself would not alter it; such is the imperfection of man, and such the perfection of God. It is impossible for God to lie, Heb. 6:18. And, when in scripture he is said to repent, it is not meant of any change of his mind (for he is in one mind, and who can turn him? ) but only of the change of his way. This is a great truth, that with God there is no variableness nor shadow of turning. Now here, 1. He appeals to Balak himself concerning it: "Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Said it in his own purpose, and shall he not perform it in his providence, according to the counsel of his will? Hath he spoken in his word, in his promise, and shall he not make it good? Can we think otherwise of God than that he is unchangeably one with himself and true to his word? All his decrees are unalterable, and all his promises inviolable.’’ 2. He applies this general truth to the case in hand

The same Hebrew word is translated by the NASB in 1 Sam 15:29 as:
"Furthermore, the Eternal One of Israel does not lie or change His mind, for He is not man who changes his mind."

Wesley's notes have:

23:19 That he should lie - Break his promises made to his people for their preservation and benediction. Repent - Change his counsels or purposes; unless he see iniquity in Jacob.

The NASB has for Exo. 32:12 - Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, 'With evil {intent} He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about {doing} harm to Your people.

Matthew-Henry says,

"...repent of this evil"; change the sentence of destruction into that of correction.’’

BTW, the Hebrew word used in Exo. 32:12 is The Hebrew word naµh\am, isn't it?

But it really doesn't matter since when we speak of salvation - the gospel - we're talking about the NT - in the Greek. And I imagine we are talking about different Hebrew words there. Just as in Greek there is a common word translated as "turn from" - epistrefo. But metanoeo does not mean that. Different words.

Repentance, according to Bauer, Gingrich & Danker (BGAD). is to "change your mind."

Ex 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

Here the word for "Turn" is the word "shuwb".

FG - OK, now I see where you're coming from here. The word "turn" is not what I would be interested in though, but the word translated there as "repent" (naµh\am) - which does mean to change your mind.[/quote:36143]

Thx evanman,

FG