Realizing the bible was canonized by ecumenical councils over long periods of years....

Discussion in 'Apologetics' started by Windsong, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    But nothing in the bible is written to me. The entire old testament is the Law and prophets for the house of Israel. And nothing in the New Testament was given to anyone today. The 4 gospels was a recording of Jesus sent to the lost sheep of Israel only and fullfillment of the law and prophets, and Pauls letters were not written to or for us today.

    To my beloved son Timothy
    To God’s holy people in Ephesus
    To the church of the Thessalonians
    To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people.

    John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia.

    All these people did not have or read each others letters that were not specifically given to them, they only had what was specifically given to them, and apart from the jews no one had the old testament because it was there scripture.

    Someone put it all together and people are made to believe its all relevant for them today.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  2. Papa Zoom

    Papa Zoom Staff Member Moderator

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    Are you saying the bible isn't relevant for today?
     
  3. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    The scriptures should be on the history chanel or in a museum somewhere.

    For example Paul said specifically to the Thessalonians (not you and me) the man of sin would sit in the temple of God. The temple was still standing and the man of sin did sit in the temple to those who understood. That was fullfilled. Its not relevant today and it was a letter specifically given to the Thessalonians in that day. The letter was not for your or my eyes. People are still waiting for the man of sin to sit in the temple of God. People are using what was not given to them and applying it to there own beliefs.

    People read all these letters to all those 1st century church congregations and try put it all together and think its all relevant.

    Ever wondered why Christianity is a complete mess.

    James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    Oh its a letter directed to the 12 tribes.

    What about Hebrews, Nope, thats for the Hebrews.

    Thessalonians Nope
    Ephesians Nope
    Timothy Nope
    Revelation Nope
    Galations Nope
    Corinthians nope

    Anything Nope.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  4. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    People need to read scripture for what it is and what it says and not apply it to themsleves if it was not given to them.

    Revelation for example was written to the seven churches in Asia and Jesus said in Revelation 2 'hold fast until I come'. Those churches no longer exist because he took away there candlesticks like he said he would and it was written to them.

    Do people think John sent a letter specifically to the churches in Asia where it was to show the servants what must soon take place because the time is near, that said hold fast until Jesus comes, and they all died, the ancient churches no longer exist, and it was really given to people in 2017 waiting for Jesus return.

    The old testament was only given for the house of Israel. All the letters in the New testament were given to specific people or congregations. Romans for the Romans, Hebrews for the Hebrews. Revelation the 7 churches. Ephesians for those in the church of Ephesus. Timothy was written for Timothy, and so on so on. Peter, John.

    They all talk about Jesus return. It was to them and for them.

    Why do people say scripture is relevant when it was not written to them. Its good to learn from and for history. A great work of God. But we now live in the new world.

    These scriptures are not for us. If God was to speak he would send us our own letter thats relevant to us.

    The Holy Spirit was given for a time from Christs death until Christs return where it would cease as Paul said.

    Who wants the Holy Spirit and to be crying Abba Father, living in hope, and crying repentence, and waiting for Christs return. Thats how people are living. Thinking they have the Spirit and Prophecy and Tounges.

    Rejoice and just be a good person. Thats all people need to do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  5. Papa Zoom

    Papa Zoom Staff Member Moderator

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    2 Timothy 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…

    All of Scripture is for us - believers in Jesus. As for a museum:
    https://www.museumofthebible.org/ap...&utm_term=C01WW05NANA17F00135&utm_content=bbs
     
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  6. selihah

    selihah Member

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    I disagree,

    "...let not the son of the stranger, that has joined himself to Yehovah, speak, saying, Yehovah shall surly separate me from His people. And the stranger who joins with Yehovah to serve Him and to love the name of Yehovah, to be His servants, everyone who observes the Sabbath from profaning it and who holds fast to My covenant. I will bring them to My holy mount, and I will cause them to rejoice in My house of prayer, their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be acceptable upon My altar, for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. So says Yehovah God, Who gathers in the dispersed of Israel, I will yet gather others to him, together with his gathered ones.

    And that's not the only encouraging words found proving it was intended for more than just the house of Israel.
     
  7. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    Then on what basis do you put "yes" for Christian?
     
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  8. Runner

    Runner Member

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    While I do disagree with you, I'm sympathetic to what you're saying. I know plenty of solid Christians who say, "Read the Bible? Nah, very seldom. How many times do I need to read a book to understand what it says?"

    I once said, only somewhat in jest, that I thought Christianity would be better off if Christians were required to read the Bible three times and then prohibited from ever looking at it again. They would just get on with their Christian lives, applying what they had learned.

    The common mindset, however, is at the opposite extreme. The Bible is God's living word to each of us, to be faithfully and prayerfully read on a daily basis. It's literally God speaking to us. Not regularly reading the Bible is unthinkable. I'm sympathetic to this perspective as well, but it can lead to Bible idolatry and a very narrow worldview and it certainly generates a lot of fussin' and feudin' that would not otherwise exist.

    I'm kind of in-between. I've read most of the books enough times that I'm quickly bored and would rather read what some theologian or other scholar has to say. I happen to love Walden, but I'd quickly grow to hate it if I forced myself to read it every day. Yet I do realize that at least some parts of the Bible speak to me and have relevance to issues in my life, So I read the New Testament and some parts of the Old Testament enough to let them speak to me, but not on any regular basis. The Bible is now secondary to my prayer life and daily walk with God.
     
  9. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    Paul was talking to Timothy. Why do you take what was given privately to Timothy in a letter 2000 years ago and apply it to yourself. Take it for what it is. Paul talking to Timothy. Not Paul talking to Papa Zoom.

    Paul also told Timothy that in the last days perilous times shall come and to continue in the things which he hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom he hast learned them so that he may be complete, and all scripture is God breathed and useful.

    But in 2 Timothy everyone thinks Paul is talking to them about the times that will come.

    Scripture is God breathed but i dont need the old testament because the prophets were speaking to the the house of Israel and the law was for the house of Israel and Jesus come only to the lost sheep of Israel. The old testament is a great work of God but its only History, just like the New Testament that is really just the fullfillment of the Law and prophets. Christ comes, Christ returns and gave the Kingdom to God, raised the dead, and now the Temple of God is open and there is a new heaven and new earth.

    How can anyone believe they are saved if they dont believe Jesus has returned. They are not saved but are living in a time of Christs death waiting for his return thinking the scriptures and times are for them when nothing was written to them. The times were not for us but were for the people who the scriptures were written.

    "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

    Remember Jesus said the Kingdom comes without observation. The ressurection happened when he returned. Christ fullfilled all things and delivered the Kingdom to God. The temple of God is open.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  10. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    Do you see that your entire post contradicts your previous statement that "nothing in the Bible is written to me"?
     
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  11. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    How so. Nothing was written to me. Show me one letter where Paul says to the Church of NZ.
     
  12. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    You're applying Scripture to yourself while at the same time saying it has no application to you. That is contradictory.

    If nothing is written for you, you should throw it out and stop reading other people's mail.
     
  13. Papa Zoom

    Papa Zoom Staff Member Moderator

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    I never said written to me. It was NOT written privately as it was shared with other because the principles outlined are for everyone, not just Timothy. It was expected that Paul's letters would be passed around. That the Scriptures are profitable for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness is true for all believers and is clear from not only the text, but from the history of the Church Herself.
     
  14. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    All Scripture is a great work of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Even if i dont think its relevant anymore its not reading other peoples mail, its reading God's word as a history source. Its mail God does not mind anyone reading. It shows his great works.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  15. Papa Zoom

    Papa Zoom Staff Member Moderator

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    According to your own words, you have no basis for your faith.
     
  16. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    I have faith because I believe the scriptures and Jesus and Paul, I just believe all is fullfilled now. If i lived with my brothers 2000 years ago the letters would be valid, so they are for me because im a believer in God and they are for the church, but i just think they are all fullfilled now.

    Sorry im all over the place. I find it hard to explain things and probably word things wrong.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  17. jasonc

    jasonc Member

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    Full Preterism, be careful
     
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  18. Papa Zoom

    Papa Zoom Staff Member Moderator

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    Believe what about the Scriptures if they don't apply to you? They are not profitable for you according to what you believe. Therefore there is nothing in the Bible that applies to you. So how can you even be saved? Apart from the Scriptures, where do you go to for truth for salvation? If you say the Scriptures, you contradict yourself. If the Bible doesn't apply to you, you may as well throw it away as it's nothing more than a history book.
     
  19. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    It is a history book. Everything was written and the account of Jesus was 2000 years ago. Its Gods work completed. I believe it. I just think there is no more Prophecy. People read the bible to know its an amazing work of God.

    How can I be saved?, how can anyone be saved if they dont believe Jesus has returned and are waiting for salvation?. So no one can say they are saved I guess if they dont believe Jesus has returned because its living in the time of Christs first appearance and the time of his return. Living in the times of the Apostles.

    "So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

    The were all waiting for his return. Paul was waiting. Why would he have bothered waiting so eager if he knew it was going to be after he died and thousands of years later.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  20. civilwarbuff

    civilwarbuff Member

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    KD, can you point to when the 2nd coming happened?....I mean, there ought to at least be a footnote in the history books about it.....
     
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