Realizing the bible was canonized by ecumenical councils over long periods of years....

Discussion in 'Apologetics' started by Windsong, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    What i mean is, If Jesus said to his diciple go get me a donkey, I read it as Jesus told his diciple 2000 years ago to get him a donkey. Not me to get him a donkey.

    When Jesus said to his diciples some of you standing here wont taste death until they see the Son of Man coming of the clouds, I read it as Jesus told his diciples 2000 years ago some of them standing there wont taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

    When Jesus told his diciples ' when you see all these things'. I read it as Jesus told his diciples 2000 years ago they would see all those things. Not me or another future generation.

    I just read the testimony and record for what it says. Whats wrong with that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  2. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Nothing Brother. You're studying to show yourself approved. But that donkey story is was a shadow of things to come. It was an untried, untrained donkey which had never carried a burdan or a man...(That's us Christians nowadays!) In our weakness is His strength!!
    and He rode this untried donkey triumphantly into Jerusalem. Just as in these last days, He will "ride us dumbbell Christians to victory.
    We have to stay little. When we get big (pride) we go and do things of our own accord. Wrong! Of myself, I can do nothing. I am...untired, untrained...an ass! Lol. My God is the big one. He will do whatever He wills through me...

    The disciples threw their coats onto the donkey. Meaning mantles will be put on us.

    That's what I got out of that story.
     
  3. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    2 Thessalonians 2:5

    Anyone remember what Paul said?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  4. Papa Zoom

    Papa Zoom Staff Member Moderator

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    Or unless you misunderstand what he meant.
     
  5. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    How can it be misunderstood. If Jesus said to a group of people some of them standing there would be persecuted (literally killed) and others would still be alive (not taste death), until he returns then i believe what he said.

    Im not the one trying to twist his direct literal words.

    Jesus spoke literally and in parable, its not hard to tell the difference.

    People try and complicate Jesus or make him out to be a liar.

    Christianity is deceptive, it always has been full of liars. There is thousands of denominations and doctrine, and all claiming they have the Holy Spirit, that was given for a time until Christs return. Thats why people these days can't heal the sick and do miracles.

    It don't mean peoples intentions are bad, they just follow a lie.

    If i believe he has returned like he said he would in that generation then I have accepted his salvation and not rejected it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  6. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    Christianity thinks Jesus delays so has decided to get drunk by spiting thousands of doctrine and denominations. Drunk like Jerusalem.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  7. civilwarbuff

    civilwarbuff Member

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    It is helpful if you don't paraphrase scripture but actually cite chapter/verse of what you are referencing.
     
  8. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    I was testing. :biggrin2
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  9. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    You have misunderstood what he meant. You are equating what Jesus said with his second coming but have little reason for doing so.

    Mat 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (ESV)

    We see something similar When Jesus is standing before Caiaphas and the Council:

    Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." (ESV)

    Jesus appears to be alluding to Dan. 7:13, which isn't about his return but rather his being presented before God victorious, which would be after his resurrection:

    Dan 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
    Dan 7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. (ESV)

    So another plausible and more likely explanation is Pentecost, where the disciples were clothed with power to go out and bring God's kingdom to bear upon the earth. Jesus's resurrection inaugurated his kingdom, and it came in power at Pentecost, but it will not come to its fullness until his second return, which clearly has not happened yet (based on much of what Scripture states that will look like; the fact people still die should be a massive clue).

    We see then at the end of Matthew that Jesus has indeed received dominion:

    Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (ESV)
     
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  10. Windsong

    Windsong Member

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    I remember when Paul cursed anyone who would come after him preaching the good news. And this while he avoided the apostles who were with Christ during his ministry.

    What many people don't realize is the councils and that includes that of Nicea, predated the bible. Making a creed of beliefs based on what was largely oral teachings and holding to that above all , when scriptures later arrived in various textus forms over centuries reporting , recording, Jesus teachings through sources that learned in a hand-me-down fashion from the disciples themselves , is holding to the council of men. Not the teachings of Christ.
    First, a Roman pagan emperor oversaw the authoring of what it means to believe in Jesus.
    That's hugely ironic.
     
  11. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    Scriptural evidence, please.

    This is patently false. The Nicene Creed predates the Bible as a whole, as a completed, agreed upon canon, but all the books of the Bible were completed prior to AD 100. The Nicene Creed was based on over 200 years of teachings from the NT books.

    The Council of Nicaea affirmed what was already commonly believed in the churches.
     
  12. kiwidan

    kiwidan Member

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    Did the gospel get preached to the whole world?.

    Romans 10
    "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  13. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    It depends on what is meant by "world."

    Luk 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. (ESV)

    Even this:

    Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. (ESV)

    In all passages, it clearly does not mean the entire earth but more likely the entire Roman Empire, perhaps beyond somewhat.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  14. reba

    reba Staff Member Administrator

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    There are some who, read Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. exactly as it is written this runs into a huge theological study... of different views.. yet still with in the realms Christianity . Some folks separate Luke from the same story in Matthew which we label the Olivet Discourse . This is not a salvation issue. A discussion on this woudl have to have its own thread...

    kiwidan when we use terms like Unless he is a liar. referring to Jesus it really lessens the conversation
     
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  15. jasonc

    jasonc Member

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    Stop taking it so literally.it's not literally those standing here ,but the here in some muslim controlled zone in palenstine
     
  16. Windsong

    Windsong Member

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    I think that's a great rule. It helps to educate those who argue the bible while having no knowledge of what is in it.

    Galatians 1:8


    That is indeed patently false. Unless you have proof of what you claim. :)

    No they didn't. Which is why Roman emperor Constantine convened the council to arrive in Nicea and come to an agreement being there were multiple versions of Jesus teachings being taught about the land.
     
  17. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    But that doesn't actually address what you said:

    "Anyone remember what Paul said?
    I remember when Paul cursed anyone who would come after him preaching the good news. And this while he avoided the apostles who were with Christ during his ministry."

    Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. (ESV)

    So, firstly, we see that Paul was clearly speaking of anyone preaching "a gospel" that was "contrary to the one" that was already preached to them. Not once does Paul say or even imply that he was cursing "anyone who would come after him preaching the good news," as you claim.

    So what was the issue?

    Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel
    Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. (ESV)

    Some had already been there in the short time since Paul had left and were distorting the gospel. The rest of Galatians shows that it was Judaizers that were the problem, teaching that they all needed to follow the Law, particularly circumcision, in order to be saved. Paul soundly refutes that with the true gospel.

    Secondly, no where does Paul indicate that he avoided the apostles in a negative sense, as you claim. He simply says that he didn't go talk to them at first. But talk to them he did--1:18; 2:1-14.

    How much proof do you want? There are numerous scholarly books on this matter that confirm what I have said. It's history.

    There are also other numerous early church writings, which came after the NT writings, that also show these things were being taught through writings.

    The books of the NT were completed prior to AD 100, the Council of Nicaea was in AD 325, and there were many writings in between.

    There were perhaps two main versions, the biblical one and monarchianism, as put forward by Arius. But the majority of the 300 bishops upheld the biblical version, that Jesus is divine.
     
  18. Windsong

    Windsong Member

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    Of course it does. If I was making a direct quote I would have put my remarks in quotes to indicate that and with the scripture. Galatians 1:8 But though we, or qan angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.



    Thanks so much. I very greatly enjoy discussing the scriptures with serious Christians. Not those looking for a fight.

    Be well.
     
  19. Nick

    Nick Staff Member Moderator

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    But that's not correct. Paul is talking about those preaching a different Gospel - ie a heretical one.
     
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  20. Windsong

    Windsong Member

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    Are you aware that Paul's teachings differed from Jesus', through his apostles?
     

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