Relics?

[JM]

Our orthodox and catholic friends like to pray and touch the bones of the dead. (or as they say the living in Heaven with Christ, dead) Is it possible in this day and age to believe that God is still working in the bones of dead people or the snot rage of the dead? Can we simply visit, say, a statue of Mary and be healed? Could this not be the work of the Father of Lies?

 

[Vic C.]

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Henry]

The catholics and and the Orthodox people sure are good at applying human logic the word of God, they say that they are not praying to the dead becaue in heaven they are alive, well in that line those in hell are as well, since they are self aware, and the second death ahs not come yet.

And they hold so fast to tradition, even when it is supported by or contredicts the very word of God, they even hold tradition above the word of god, tht is testing the word of God with tradtion, rather they the other way around.

I geuss they missed the part were God tells us that human logic is from the heart of hell, that the heart of a man is wickedly deceitfull, and that we should not lean on our own understanding but on the word of God.

When they say OUR tradition is, or apply human logioc to heretical doctrine, they have shoved aside the word of God and replaced it with the word of man.

Sad

 

[presbuteros]

Scofield wrote:

Could this not be the work of the father of lies?

Just a few words from my Master, if you please:

And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He has Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils He casts out devils.
And He called them unto Him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Mark 3:22 -26

Oh, and by the way, before making outlandish statements, you really should get to understand how we Orthodox understand relics.

Not only do you not understand, but you are leading others astray. Reminds me of some other words by my Lord:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Remember also the words of St. James when he writes,

Let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgement.

Finally, remember this: Our God is an Awesome God. He does far beyond all our understanding so that much of what He does is a great Mystery to us. That His holiness spreads to the very bones of His saints is not really that much of a surprise, though, considering how He has worked throughout the ages.

 

[Tobael]

Our orthodox and catholic friends like to pray and touch the bones of the dead. (or as they say the living in Heaven with Christ, dead)

These objects are there to recall our relationship with the saints of the past. Just as we keep pictures and articles to remind us of dead relatives, so relics remind us of our relatives in Christ, who we desire to imitate in their devotion to Christ.

Is it possible in this day and age to believe that God is still working in the bones of dead people or the snot rage of the dead? Can we simply visit, say, a statue of Mary and be healed? Could this not be the work of the Father of Lies?

A strange comment there, Scofield.

There is a spiritual reason for the early Christians' treatment of the relics of the saints. Miracles were frequently reported by those who came in contact with these remains. This should not be surprising - after all, people had been healed by touching Jesus' outer garments (Mk 5:25-34). Also, healings and exorcisms occurred when people touched handkerchiefs or aprons to Paul's body and brought them to the sick. (Acts 19: 11-12)

Similar things have happened through the centuries with the relics of saints - the sick, possessed or dying have been healed. God has always used "things" as well as people to communicate His power. Relics contain no power of themselves, God displays power through them as a testimony to the life and faith of the saint. He uses the saints as witnesses of how to live the Gospel and draws attention to them using relics.

God Bless

Tobael

 

[JM]

If the orthodox/catholic practise of relics is correct and is an important part of the Faith where in the Word of God are we told to practise this?

 

[Tobael]

Relics are not an important part of the faith, where the Catholic "hierarchy of truths" are concerned. At the top of the hierarchy are the Fatherhood of God, the death and resurrection of Jesus, the power and gifts of the Spirit, the forgiveness of sins, and the promises of eternal life. Relics, Mary, purgatory, etc. are of a lower order and should not be regarded as central to Catholic belief. By over-emphasising their importance Christian unity is undermined.

The only Biblical passages that I know of are those mentioned in my previous post:

after all, people had been healed by touching Jesus' outer garments (Mk 5:25-34).

Also, healings and exorcisms occurred when people touched handkerchiefs or aprons to Paul's body and brought them to the sick. (Acts 19: 11-12)

As I said, relics are not a central truth in the Catholic Church, nor are they a commandment - no one is forced to use them. They are simply a means of transfering God's grace to the faithful, based entirely on faith in God and brought about by reflecting on the faith of the saint to the increase of one's own faith.

God Bless

Tobael

 

[JM]

[quote="Tobael]

As I said, relics are not a central truth in the Catholic Church, nor are they a commandment - no one is forced to use them. They are simply a means of transfering God's grace to the faithful, based entirely on faith in God and brought about by reflecting on the faith of the saint to the increase of one's own faith.

God Bless

Tobael[/quote]

I still don't buy it. Jesus died so we could be saved, He died so we would all have access to the Father. It's not a central truth, it's not a truth at all.

 

[Tobael]

I still don't buy it. Jesus died so we could be saved, He died so we would all have access to the Father. It's not a central truth, it's not a truth at all.

This in no way compromises our faith in Christ. Relics are not a salvation issue. They are simply an aid to increasing faith and holiness.

Objects that were connected to Paul and Jesus were used in this way, as quoted above, and this practise carried on into the early Church, with the same effect. Why is that a problem?

From a personal point of view, when I hear that the relic of a saint has been used in healing, I immediately think of the saint and the life he led, with a desire to imitate him - to imitate him in following Jesus.

 

[Steve]

snot rage of the dead?

SNOT rags?? :-? C'mon, now, Sco. Dontcha think that's a little...uh...overkill, there?

 

[Steve]

I still don't buy it. Jesus died so we could be saved, He died so we would all have access to the Father. It's not a central truth, it's not a truth at all.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, Sco, you musta bought it at one time. If I remember correctly, you were a convert TO Orthodoxy from some sort of Protestantism. As a matter of fact, since one time you mentioned "Blessed" Seraphim Rose, that tells me you were in a far-right Russian or Greek ROCOR place. So, what turned you around?

 

[JM]

I still don't buy it. Jesus died so we could be saved, He died so we would all have access to the Father. It's not a central truth, it's not a truth at all.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, Sco, you musta bought it at one time. If I remember correctly, you were a convert TO Orthodoxy from some sort of Protestantism. As a matter of fact, since one time you mentioned "Blessed" Seraphim Rose, that tells me you were in a far-right Russian or Greek ROCOR place. So, what turned you around?

The overflow of corrupt tradition and the solid Word of God.

 

[JM]

If the saints in heaven can hear the prayers of the faithful on earth, do they know of the pain and suffering the faithful are going through, does the knowledge of that pain and suffering affect the bless of heaven?

 

[fiat]

Here's another Scripture verse for ya speaking directly of the remains of a deceased saint...

"So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21).

The Church doesn't claim that relics have "magical powers"...the use of them is not necessary for one to be a faithful Catholic. However, the Church says relics may be "the occasion of God's miracles." Jesus himself used material objects (mud and spit, among other things!) as the instruments of miracles. A hemorraging woman was healed by touching His cloak, the sick were healed when Peter's shadow passed over them, and of course, Paul's hankies and aprons that were already mentioned. :

 

[Tobael]

If the saints in heaven can hear the prayers of the faithful on earth, do they know of the pain and suffering the faithful are going through, does the knowledge of that pain and suffering affect the bless of heaven?

The saints in heaven know of the suffering, but they obviously don't feel pain themselves, as they have no bodies before the Resurrection. The soul has two faculties, those of knowing and loving (according to Aquinas) - the saints know of our pain and the love they have for us and God makes them concerned for us and all the more ready to pray for us.

That's as I see it, anyway.

God Bless,

Tobael.

 

[JM]

Here's another Scripture verse for ya speaking directly of the remains of a deceased saint...

"So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21).

The Church doesn't claim that relics have "magical powers"...the use of them is not necessary for one to be a faithful Catholic. However, the Church says relics may be "the occasion of God's miracles." Jesus himself used material objects (mud and spit, among other things!) as the instruments of miracles. A hemorraging woman was healed by touching His cloak, the sick were healed when Peter's shadow passed over them, and of course, Paul's hankies and aprons that were already mentioned. :

Where are we told to do this in Scripture? As far as Scripture is concerned, examples maybe found but no instruction to seek these signs is given.

 

[JM]

The practice of asking in prayer Mary or dead saints cannot be found in Scripture, Jesus told us to pray to the Father in his name. John 14:13-14; 15:16

Using images for worship and relics was authorized by a corrupt Church, this was by order of Empress Irene of Constantinople, (who plucked the eyes of her own son Constantine as relics), and then called a Church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time. Such practices are idolatry. Lev.26:1; Numb.33:52

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The practice of asking in prayer Mary or dead saints cannot be found in Scripture, Jesus told us to pray to the Father in his name. John 14:13-14; 15:16

Using images for worship and relics was authorized by a corrupt Church, this was by order of Empress Irene of Constantinople, (who plucked the eyes of her own son Constantine as relics), and then called a Church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time. Such practices are idolatry. Lev.26:1; Numb.33:52

The use of images predates Christianity. Aside from the Cherubim in the Holy of Holies, there is evidence of the use of icons with human images in synagogues dating to about 1 century BCE. There are numerous icons/murals painted in the catacombs, dating to late 2nd century. The use of images found more application subsequent to Constantine, as the persecutors were no longer gathering Christian artifacts to burn.

Your homage to the second commandment is, I hope, not contradicted by crosses or icons hanging about in your home, Jason? :

You'll note that the commandment is against graven images and the worship of the images. I assume that when you stand in the presence of the American flag, you are not paying respect to the flag, but rather the sacrifice behind same?

This ain't rocket science, guys.

 

[Cure of Ars]

If the orthodox/catholic practise of relics is correct and is an important part of the Faith where in the Word of God are we told to practise this?

Relics are clearly in the Bible.

So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. (Acts 19:11-12)

Where are we told to do this in Scripture? As far as Scripture is concerned, examples maybe found but no instruction to seek these signs is given.

Where in the Bible does it say, "Do as I say, not as I do"?

 

[Heidi]

Romans 1:22-23, "Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals." Nothing eternal exists in man-made objects. Habbukkuk says; "Woe to the man who says; 'wood come to life!" Everything seen is temporal and not lasting. Relics are just wood, ceramics, glass, etc. They are mere objects that can be disposed of, burned or broken. They are as meaningless as anything worldly. Jesus siad to be "in the world, not of the world."