Resurrection did not happen, say quarter of UK Christians

[jasonc]

How many saw the shack and approved it that we know? That says a lot.

 

[Papa Zoom]

How many saw the shack and approved it that we know? That says a lot.

What???

 

[jasonc]

What???

Yes,I do hear this.they like it and recommend seeing it.I heard it last night.

I might adress that. I used to be a jw.if they like the shack why not believe that the jw,Mormon who also teach forgiveness are christians?

 

[OzSpen]

this is what i mean by not giving them the time of day. when something like this comes along it is soon spread like wildfire

Ezra,

That's not what 1 Thess 5:21-22 (NIV) states: '21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil'.

I've raised this issue so that we all can test it for its authenticity and goodness. We need to reject it if it is an evil assessment.

Those of us who love Jesus, need to defend the bodily resurrection of Jesus and show how far off reality and Scripture the 25% of UK 'Christians' are in their assessment of the resurrection.

If we don't do this, our youth in high school and university will be vulnerable to attacks on the resurrection. Easter is the time to defend the bodily resurrection, even on the BBC.

Oz

 

[ezra]

Ezra,

That's not what 1 Thess 5:21-22 (NIV) states: '21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil'.

I've raised this issue so that we all can test it for its authenticity and goodness. We need to reject it if it is an evil assessment.

Those of us who love Jesus, need to defend the bodily resurrection of Jesus and show how far off reality and Scripture the 25% of UK 'Christians' are in their assessment of the resurrection.

If we don't do this, our youth in high school and university will be vulnerable to attacks on the resurrection. Easter is the time to defend the bodily resurrection, even on the BBC.

Oz

sigh *** your missing the point expose them yes advertise for them no. but our universities are all ready at this point . we the church has allowed it and it has come inside the body of Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

sigh *** your missing the point expose them yes advertise for them no. but our universities are all ready at this point . we the church has allowed it and it has come inside the body of Christ.

Ezra,

I'm missing no point. I started the OP with the express view of exposing this heretical view and getting feedback on what could be causing it.

What do I get from you? Sigh.

I cannot expose them without giving some evidence from the article of what one quarter of UK folks are saying in rejecting the resurrection.

Oz

 

[Pegasus]

Free,

The evidence from the NT is unequivocal that Jesus’ rose from the grave bodily. Any other interpretation flies in the face of the following evidence:

What does the Bible say about Jesus’ bodily resurrection?

It is very easy to show from the Scriptures that Christ rose from the dead in a physical body. Let’s look at the evidence (based on Geisler 1999, pp. 667-668):

1. People touched him with their hands (Matt 28:9; Lk 24:39; John 20:27-28;

2. Jesus’ resurrection body had real flesh and bones (Luke 24:39-42);

3. Jesus ate real tucker (Aussie for “food”). See Luke 24:30, 41-43; John 21:12-13; Acts 10:41);

4. Take a look at the wounds in his body (John 20:27; Acts 1:11)

5. Jesus could be seen and heard (Matt 28:17; Lk 24:31);

6. The Greek word, soma, always means physical body (1 Cor 15:42-44);

7. Jesus’ body came out from among the dead.

There’s a prepositional phrase that is used in the NT to describe resurrection “from (ek) the dead” (cf. Mark 9:9; Luke 24:46; John 2:22; Acts 3:15; Rom. 4:24; I Cor. 15:12). That sounds like a ho-hum kind of phrase in English, “from the dead.” Not so in the Greek.

This Greek preposition, ek, means Jesus was resurrected ‘out from among’ the dead bodies, that is, from the grave where corpses are buried (Acts 13:29-30). These same words are used to describe Lazarus’s being raised ‘from the dead’ (John 12:1). In this case there is no doubt that he came out of the grave in the same body in which he was buried. Thus, resurrection was of a physical corpse out of a tomb or graveyard (Geisler 1999:668).

This confirms the physical nature of the resurrection body.

8. He appeared to over 500 people at the one time (Acts 1:3; 1 Cor 15:5-8).

How is it possible to conclude from this evidence that Jesus was not raised bodily from the grave?

The above is summarised from my article, ‘Was Jesus’ resurrection a bodily resurrection?’

Oz

Works consulted
Geisler, N. L. 1999, ‘Resurrection, Evidence for’, in N. L. Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, 651-656. Grand Rapid, Michigan: Baker Books.

Oz good day!

Do you post over at Christianforums.com? If so, let me know and I will start a Resurrection thread with your comments as lead in.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

NNS,

I'm not sure that this is a biblical view. You don't like the idea of 'question everything'. What do the Scriptures state?

1 Cor 12:10 (NIV) speaks of the 'discernment of spirits or distinguishing between spirits'. It's a gift of the Spirit and every church needs those with this gift.

John MacArthur explained it well:

In its simplest definition, discernment is nothing more than the ability to decide between truth and error, right and wrong. Discernment is the process of making careful distinctions in our thinking about truth. In other words, the ability to think with discernment is synonymous with an ability to think biblically.

First Thessalonians 5:21-22 teaches that it is the responsibility of every Christian to be discerning: "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil." The apostle John issues a similar warning when he says, "Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1). According to the New Testament, discernment is not optional for the believer-it is required (What is biblical discernment and why is it important?)
​

That's the biblical emphasis:

• examine everything carefully;
• hold fast to that which is good;
• abstain from every form of evil;
• Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God;
• many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Thess 5:21 states:

• but test them all; hold on to what is good (NIV);
• but test everything; hold fast what is good (ESV);
• But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good (NASB);
• but test everything; hold fast to what is good (NRSV).

Therefore, I've sought to practise 1 Thess 5:21 in examining your post. I've found some elements that don't stack up. You stated:

• 'There is a deceptiveness to knowledge. If it can not be explained it can't be true'. You have given your own knowledge here and your claim that 'if it can not be explained' is too general in its application. My motor mechanic did not explain the breakdown in my car's carburetor to my satisfaction, but he sure fixed the problem I was having.
• You don't like the idea of 'question everything'. However, that is biblical thinking according to 1 Thess 5:21, 'examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good' (NASB).
• You say, 'We're adults now, and need proof to accept something as reasonable', is a wrong perspective. Not so, according to 1 Thess 5:21, 'Examine everything carefully'.

AI'm going to stick with Scripture.

Oz

Oz, I think you and I have different perceptions of the term "question everything." You're viewing it as an extension of discernment, perhaps even the embodiment of what discernment is. The context I've heard that phrase though is not discernment of what's right from wrong, or discernment of what's from God and what's not. I agree those are worth while causes to discern. Usually I hear that reference in terms of questioning until there is no explaination that is satisfying, and uprooting a person's foundation of discernment.

Not everything has an explaination, nor is everything explained. Some things we have to come to terms with this. Job comes to mind as an example of things not being explained. Where Job in his anguish demands an answer from God, and Job's friends who came to comfort him, end up arguing with him over explainations of his loss. The friends explaination was unmerited because they did not have the authority to explain why God does what He does. And finally when God answers Job, God does not explain it. Job had to accept God's authority and His sovereignty without an explaination.

That's where I see the context of question everything. Not as an extension of discernment but an unwillingness to move on if it is not explained. It would fit the poll from UK about the rising number of Christians who no longer believe Jesus was reserected, because they don't see how (or why) God could do it, thus it didn't happen. It would fit in line with the population of Christians that don't believe in miracles. Without proof or a non maradi ours explaination, even what's from God is questioned and rejected.

If this doesn't explain my meaning better, or you don't agree with my reasoning, then I guess we'll talk about it again. My fault for using the phrase that that could be counted as discernment. I should have avoided that confusion, but didn't realize it would be there.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yes,I do hear this.they like it and recommend seeing it.I heard it last night.

I might adress that. I used to be a jw.if they like the shack why not believe that the jw,Mormon who also teach forgiveness are christians?

I pray PZ made some sense ot of that, I can't.

 

[ezra]

Ezra,

I'm missing no point. I started the OP with the express view of exposing this heretical view and getting feedback on what could be causing it.

What do I get from you? Sigh.

I cannot expose them without giving some evidence from the article of what one quarter of UK folks are saying in rejecting the resurrection.

Oz

what do you want from me . you tweaked out when i said why even give them the time of the day. are you familiar with the great welsh revival. when the farmers got saved the animals did not know how to respond there had been such a change . couple years ago i talked with a guy i graduated with .that had done missionary work in Luxembourg . he had the opportunity to go see the church. some of the locals had no idea what took place at that church. Great REV once flourished in the u.k spread to the united states . we really exposed the false teaching both nations are in moral decline . so i tell ya what i will give you a big pat on the back for what your doing. we have several type people in the land. those who think they are saved do good things etc. those who say they use to be saved but are no longer. those who use to attend church but no longer have the want to or desire to attend. then we have the hit and miss church attenders.


(getting feedback on what could be causing it.) many had rather believe a lie than the truth . might i add the other group the ones with a form of Godliness .they have their own religion but deny the power there of , the problem they allowed themselves to be blinded by thee god of this world. expose them to Light is the only thing we can do.. does that help .yes once again you missed my point in which i will not take time to explain .

 

[Jim Parker]

How many saw the shack and approved it that we know? That says a lot.

Yes, that is an example of secularism being inserted into Christianity.
Nowhere in the Bible is God portrayed as "our Mother."
God is always revealed as masculine and "Our Father."

But let's not depart from the topic of the thread into a discussion of "The Shack."

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Could it also relate to Christians who have a lame presence in the public square? They are not ready to debate and defend the bodily resurrection of Christ.

Here in USA, the average presence of Christianity in the public square is the stick-on plastic symbol on the rear of our cars and crowding of restaurants after Sunday service when some folks will leave a tract with the tip.
The greatest efforts at evangelization and apologetics comes from the Mormons and the JWs knocking on doors and doing Bible "studies." Many of them can recite more scripture than those who attend legitimate Christian churches.

This apathetic (and pathetic) situation may be the fruit of the general (though unconscious) acceptance of "Cheap Grace."
New Christians are taught that the totality of their part in salvation is to believe (intellectually agree with) the Gospel. They are not told that Christ actually expects them to obey His commands to love one another, their neighbors and even their enemies and that they are supposed to let their light so shine before men that they see their GOOD WORKS and glorify God. (The only "good work" that seems to be required in many churches is to tithe which, for modern Evangelical and/or Protestant and/or Reformed churches, has filled the place of the 16th century RCC indulgence.)

The result is that the average Christian (without his cross on a chain, the sticker on the back of his car and the Bible under his arm) cannot be distinguished from and average neo-pagan.

But God has yet 7000 who have not bent the knee to Baal...........

iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

what do you want from me . you tweaked out when i said why even give them the time of the day. are you familiar with the great welsh revival. when the farmers got saved the animals did not know how to respond there had been such a change . couple years ago i talked with a guy i graduated with .that had done missionary work in Luxembourg . he had the opportunity to go see the church. some of the locals had no idea what took place at that church. Great REV once flourished in the u.k spread to the united states . we really exposed the false teaching both nations are in moral decline . so i tell ya what i will give you a big pat on the back for what your doing. we have several type people in the land. those who think they are saved do good things etc. those who say they use to be saved but are no longer. those who use to attend church but no longer have the want to or desire to attend. then we have the hit and miss church attenders.

(getting feedback on what could be causing it.) many had rather believe a lie than the truth . might i add the other group the ones with a form of Godliness .they have their own religion but deny the power there of , the problem they allowed themselves to be blinded by thee god of this world. expose them to Light is the only thing we can do.. does that help .yes once again you missed my point in which i will not take time to explain .

Ezra,

I want nothing from you. I've been responding to your claims.

Oz

 

[ezra]

Ezra,

I want nothing from you. I've been responding to your claims.

Oz

great problem solved
claims ? how about facts we have been exposing abortion same sex marriage drunkenness adultery etc for years. lets turn the Light on so darkness can flee 1 john 1:7

 

[ezra]

Here in USA, the average presence of Christianity in the public square is the stick-on plastic symbol on the rear of our cars and crowding of restaurants after Sunday service when some folks will leave a tract with the tip.
The greatest efforts at evangelization and apologetics comes from the Mormons and the JWs knocking on doors and doing Bible "studies." Many of them can recite more scripture than those who attend legitimate Christian churches.

This apathetic (and pathetic) situation may be the fruit of the general (though unconscious) acceptance of "Cheap Grace."
New Christians are taught that the totality of their part in salvation is to believe (intellectually agree with) the Gospel. They are not told that Christ actually expects them to obey His commands to love one another, their neighbors and even their enemies and that they are supposed to let their light so shine before men that they see their GOOD WORKS and glorify God. (The only "good work" that seems to be required in many churches is to tithe which, for modern Evangelical and/or Protestant and/or Reformed churches, has filled the place of the 16th century RCC indulgence.)

The result is that the average Christian (without his cross on a chain, the sticker on the back of his car and the Bible under his arm) cannot be distinguished from and average neo-pagan.

But God has yet 7000 who have not bent the knee to Baal...........

iakov the fool

i have to agree with you i walked into a church awhile back to preach. one the men said when he seen i had my Bible under my arm i was going to cut them with my sword. the devil does not care how much you read the Bible or even attend church . he cares when you use the scripture from your bible and learn something from Church . i would put a honk if you love jesus bumper sticker on my car. but when someone cuts me off or pulls out in front of me. i honk my horn ..its not because i love Jesus

 

[OzSpen]

Here in USA, the average presence of Christianity in the public square is the stick-on plastic symbol on the rear of our cars and crowding of restaurants after Sunday service when some folks will leave a tract with the tip.
The greatest efforts at evangelization and apologetics comes from the Mormons and the JWs knocking on doors and doing Bible "studies." Many of them can recite more scripture than those who attend legitimate Christian churches.

This apathetic (and pathetic) situation may be the fruit of the general (though unconscious) acceptance of "Cheap Grace."
New Christians are taught that the totality of their part in salvation is to believe (intellectually agree with) the Gospel. They are not told that Christ actually expects them to obey His commands to love one another, their neighbors and even their enemies and that they are supposed to let their light so shine before men that they see their GOOD WORKS and glorify God. (The only "good work" that seems to be required in many churches is to tithe which, for modern Evangelical and/or Protestant and/or Reformed churches, has filled the place of the 16th century RCC indulgence.)

The result is that the average Christian (without his cross on a chain, the sticker on the back of his car and the Bible under his arm) cannot be distinguished from and average neo-pagan.

But God has yet 7000 who have not bent the knee to Baal...........

iakov the fool

Jim,

What a brilliant assessment.

A male Christian friend and I attended a Good Friday service up the top of the mountain near where I live, Mountain Top Community Church, Mt Mee. As we were driving there (45 mins run), we discussed the lack of overt evangelism in Australia.

I commented that I probably wouldn't have been travelling in that car with him if it were not for Billy Graham's 1959 Crusades in Brisbane and my parents were sitting in their Prefect Ute listening to Billy's message come out of the loud speakers at the Bundaberg Show Grounds. Mum and Dad's lives were changed forever because of their response to the Gospel message.

Many have criticised Billy's approach to evangelism, but Mum and Dad have gone to glory, but the 3 children in the family are all born-again believers because Jesus saturated our household from that day in 1959.

What is it that causes us to be so slack in evangelism? A couple in my cell group are Gideons. They are able to get Bibles to teens in high schools, universities, motel rooms, hospitals, etc, but they can't get enough people in Gideons to help them distribute these Bibles. The couple is retired and that makes them more available to schools, etc.

They witness to people wherever they meet them and give them Gideon NTs.

Thanks again for challenging us to evangelism as compulsory for the believer.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

i have to agree with you i walked into a church awhile back to preach. one the men said when he seen i had my Bible under my arm i was going to cut them with my sword. the devil does not care how much you read the Bible or even attend church . he cares when you use the scripture from your bible and learn something from Church . i would put a honk if you love jesus bumper sticker on my car. but when someone cuts me off or pulls out in front of me. i honk my horn ..its not because i love Jesus

That wasn't the topic of this thread. Why don't you start other threads to deal with these excellent topics you have raised.

 

[Jim Parker]

we have been exposing abortion same sex marriage drunkenness adultery etc for years. lets turn the Light on so darkness can flee 1 john 1:7

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How about, rather than focusing on fellowship between Christians and point out all the evil things that non-believers do, ( which is judging people outside the church [Mat 7:1] ) we focus on what Jesus said we SHOULD do: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Mat 5:16)

People aren't drawn to God when we tell them what vile sinners they are. They are drawn to God when they experience the love of God coming from God, through the believer, to them, while they are still enemies of God just like all of mankind was when Jesus died for us all.

Just a thought

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

i have to agree with you i walked into a church awhile back to preach. one the men said when he seen i had my Bible under my arm i was going to cut them with my sword. the devil does not care how much you read the Bible or even attend church . he cares when you use the scripture from your bible and learn something from Church . i would put a honk if you love jesus bumper sticker on my car. but when someone cuts me off or pulls out in front of me. i honk my horn ..its not because i love Jesus

Jesus gave his disciples a pretty good example of what He meant by "let your light shine."
Mat 25:35-36 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
That's showing love.
As a people, we have become almost Gnostic in our focus on learning (head knowledge) at the expense of doing. (practical knowledge)
Jesus taught AND trained His disciples.
I experienced teaching training when I went into the Army.
They gave me classes on how to set up, aim and fire a howitzer. (head knowledge) Then they had me go out and do it. (practical knowledge)

I think we should be doing the same. Teaching is only half the job. Then we learn "about" but doing teaches us "how to."


iakov the fool

 

[ezra]

Jesus gave his disciples a pretty good example of what He meant by "let your light shine."
Mat 25:35-36 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
That's showing love.
As a people, we have become almost Gnostic in our focus on learning (head knowledge) at the expense of doing. (practical knowledge)
Jesus taught AND trained His disciples.
I experienced teaching training when I went into the Army.
They gave me classes on how to set up, aim and fire a howitzer. (head knowledge) Then they had me go out and do it. (practical knowledge)

I think we should be doing the same. Teaching is only half the job. Then we learn "about" but doing teaches us "how to."


iakov the fool

it takes a balance there is no need to preach on hell every Sunday. we preach what God gives us . today being a pastor is a big challenge. the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the lost . much like the doctors recommend a balanced diet in our eating. few words of warning along with words of encouragement is needed . i doubt any one has Church to the perfect level