Bible Study Romans

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Who wrote the book of romans?, Many say Paul but Tertius claims in the scripture to have written the epistle. Literally says I, Tertius wrote this epistle, not I, Paul wrote this epistle.

The other thing was if Paul wrote Galatians he says in the scripture he wrote the letter with his own hand, so he didn't need anyone to write for him, unless he got his hand cut off.

So, is Romans written by Paul and there is a second copy written by someone named Tertius that went out, the copy that is in the scriptures.

Was Paul a third born so he referred to himself as Tertius, as it means "the third".

I can't remember the other. Will get back when I remember. Lol.

 

[ezra]

paul wrote it

 

[Michael74]

Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God... Romans 1:1 NKJV

 

[Michael74]

Back in the day, writing on papyrus was complicated, and took a lot of time to write on. You had to prepare the papyrus, carefully write each letter with a reed, and then glue the pages together into a 10 to 35 foot long scroll. By dictating the letter to Tertius, Paul could free up considerable time for other tasks. Similar to what the 12 did in Acts:

Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” Acts 6:2-4 NKJV

Many pastors today employ a church secretary to do clerical tasks, freeing the pastor for other work. Its common practice in business for executives to employ secretaries, and dictate letters for the secretary to type up. It was also common practice back in the day to employ professional scribes to do the time using task of preparing scrolls.

 

[JohnDB]

People didn't have reading glasses back then either. So young scribes often did the actual writing (keeping the writing small on expensive paper so more could fit on smaller sheets)

Bad eyesight is rather common after the age of 40.

 

[for_his_glory]

Paul dictated this letter to Tertius who was like a secretary to him and who was allowed to add his own greeting, Romans 16:22. This letter was written to the Church in Rome.

Interesting fact is that Paul nor Peter founded the church in Rome, but more likely that Christians from churches established by Paul in Asia, Macedonia and Greece settled in Rome and led others to Christ. Gentiles were very prominent in the church at Rome. The church in Rome was well established for several years before Paul had this letter written to them. The believers were numerous in number and met together in many different places, Romans 16:1-16. The historian Tacitus referred to Christians who were persecuted under Nero in A.D.64 as an immense multitude.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Thanks for the replies, so what is your proof it was Paul?. If the scripture literally says Tertius wrote the epistle, then where is stronger evidence that Paul wrote it?.

What makes you believe Paul wrote the epistle when the epistle says Tertius wrote it?. Something made you believe it was Paul, unless you just believe what you hear. For all I know it could be Paul, I'm not trying to prove its not but simply trying to figure out how Paul has more credibility for the letter when the letter literally says someone else wrote it.

I read the book of Matthew and Romans last night because in the stone age there is no distractions and there is really nothing to do but read. What do you do with no power,
radio,TV, and internet. Lol. Read the Gospel around the fireplace for light is about it.

 

[Michael74]

The first sentence:

Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God... Romans 1:1 NKJV

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

The first sentence:

Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God... Romans 1:1 NKJV

How do you know it wasn't written to Paul?. It starts off Paul ,called to be an Apostle. Someone could have been guiding Paul. Like a letter starts like Dear Bob, called to be a Teacher.

There is nothing that clarifies it's Paul who wrote it, but the scripture says Tertius wrote it. I, Tertius wrote this epistle.

I'm still not convinced.

 

[JohnDB]

How do you know it wasn't written to Paul?. It starts off Paul ,called to be an Apostle. Someone could have been guiding Paul. Like a letter starts like Dear Bob, called to be a Teacher.

There is nothing that clarifies it's Paul who wrote it, but the scripture says Tertius wrote it. I, Tertius wrote this epistle.

I'm still not convinced.

Then if you don't believe scripture on what basis do you believe anything?

 

[chessman]

How do you know it wasn't written to Paul?.

Because Paul said who it was to:

To all those in Rome who are loved by God, called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

Romans 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 1:7&version=LEB

Convinced now?

It starts off Paul ,called to be an Apostle.

From: Paul
To: all those in Rome who are loved by God

Simple, just like letters today have From and To, so does this one.

Prepared by: Tertius

I, Tertius, the one who wrote this letter, greet you in the Lord.​

Romans 16:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 16:22&version=LEB

On behalf of: Jesus Christ

through whom we have received grace and apostleship for the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ.​

Romans 1:5-6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 1:5-6&version=LEB

Purpose: for the obedience of faith

 

[JLB]

How do you know it wasn't written to Paul?. It starts off Paul ,called to be an Apostle. Someone could have been guiding Paul. Like a letter starts like Dear Bob, called to be a Teacher.

There is nothing that clarifies it's Paul who wrote it, but the scripture says Tertius wrote it. I, Tertius wrote this epistle.

I'm still not convinced.

Now I myself am confident concerning you, my brethren, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another. Nevertheless, brethren, I have written more boldly to you on some points, as reminding you, because of the grace given to me by God, that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Therefore I have reason to glory in Christ Jesus in the things which pertain to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient— in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man’s foundation, but as it is written:
“To whom He was not announced, they shall see;
And those who have not heard shall understand.”

For this reason I also have been much hindered from coming to you. But now no longer having a place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come to you, whenever I journey to Spain, I shall come to you. For I hope to see you on my journey, and to be helped on my way there by you, if first I may enjoy your company for a while. But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints. For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.

It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things. Therefore, when I have performed this and have sealed to them this fruit, I shall go by way of you to Spain. But I know that when I come to you, I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.
Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me, that I may be delivered from those in Judea who do not believe, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints, that I may come to you with joy by the will of God, and may be refreshed together with you. Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.
Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Likewise greet the church that is in their house.
Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ. Greet Mary, who labored much for us. Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Romans 15:14-16:7



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Romans 16:22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

This was personally added by Tertius as his own personal greeting while penning that of what Paul dictated to him to write. If you notice all the letters of Paul each one starts out with his own greeting. Papyrus took a long time to prepare and was difficult to write on and it was easier for the scribes to do the writing as Paul would dictate to them. Paul did write some of his letters himself as seen below.



1 Corinthians 16: 21 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.

Galatians 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

Colossians 4: 18 The salutation by the hand of me Paul. Remember my bonds. Grace be with you. Amen.
2 Thessalonians 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

Philemon 1:19 I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Then if you don't believe scripture on what basis do you believe anything?

I'm not trying to disprove scripture or Paul. I think I am being reasonable and it's not a salvation issue. It's a simple question because if someone in scripture literally says they wrote the letter i am reading, should I not believe they wrote the letter and are the author?. And if they are not the author then there should be some sort of higher proof or evidence it was Paul.

There is on thing that could prove, that's if the literally style is the same as the other espistles he signed with his name, but I'm not a literally scholar.

 

[JohnDB]

I'm not trying to disprove scripture or Paul. I think I am being reasonable and it's not a salvation issue. It's a simple question because if someone in scripture literally says they wrote the letter i am reading, should I not believe they wrote the letter and are the author?. And if they are not the author then there should be some sort of higher proof or evidence it was Paul.

There is on thing that could prove, that's if the literally style is the same as the other espistles he signed with his name, but I'm not a literally scholar.

Internal evidence of the manner that Paul used to explain his points are very much Paul. It's most definitely his style and manner when compared to the other letters written by him. I've even read the "lost
letters" by Paul...and they are the exact same writing style.

Stephen King books are rather repetitive in how their plot and characters are revealed. Not much difference between his books.
Same thing for Paul. And the thing about the scribe has been explained to you as the experts have been regurgitated ad nauseum.
And these guys all have extensive experience and research into ANE writings...but yet you are going to refute their expertise because of your English skills?

Not exactly a wise decision.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Internal evidence of the manner that Paul used to explain his points are very much Paul. It's most definitely his style and manner when compared to the other letters written by him. I've even read the "lost
letters" by Paul...and they are the exact same writing style.

Stephen King books are rather repetitive in how their plot and characters are revealed. Not much difference between his books.
Same thing for Paul. And the thing about the scribe has been explained to you as the experts have been regurgitated ad nauseum.
And these guys all have extensive experience and research into ANE writings...but yet you are going to refute their expertise because of your English skills?

Not exactly a wise decision.

I never refuted anyone and know not who is a scholar, I just asked the questions looking for solid answers,

I said the literally style could be used as proof, yet I haven't seen it, so I will go find a biblical literally scholar on a website and read there explaination, unless someone here can explain it without thinking I'm a fool.

Because Paul said he wrote the others with his hand it seems odd someone else said they wrote that letter.

 

[JohnDB]

I never refuted anyone and know not who is a scholar, I just asked the questions looking for solid answers,

I said the literally style could be used as proof, yet I haven't seen it, so I will go find a biblical literally scholar on a website and read there explaination, unless someone here can explain it without thinking I'm a fool.

Because Paul said he wrote the others with his hand it seems odd someone else said they wrote that letter.

Uhhh...and I quote "I'm still not convinced"

And considering that you have been here for a looooonnnng time and are a grown man fully capable of Google searches which all are going to lead you to websites that are all saying the same thing as we have repeated here.

We aren't exactly strangers.
And we know that you know better but for some reason today you are behaving contrary.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Uhhh...and I quote "I'm still not convinced"

And considering that you have been here for a looooonnnng time and are a grown man fully capable of Google searches which all are going to lead you to websites that are all saying the same thing as we have repeated here.

We aren't exactly strangers.
And we know that you know better but for some reason today you are behaving contrary.

I have never really looked into these type of things, it was only when I read Romans the other day I seen it and so I asked the question. And I always come here first and ask the forum.

I based my question on what the scripture says that Tertius wrote the book , so I go on that until I'm convinced otherwise. buthave always known of and as many say Paul wrote it. So I was just trying to figure it out and what makes everyone believe Paul wrote it and for what reasons. Then I remembered literally style can be factored in , yet no one said that earlier, so as I said I will look into it.

What's written is more important than who wrote it.

Why did I say I'm not convinced?, Because replies were just that Paul wrote it or Romans 1:1, that's not really more credibility or proof over I, Tertius, wrote this letter.

There could be a To or a From in front of Romans 1:1 for all I know.

 

[WIP]

I am sorry kiwidan that you are not seeing what seems to be clear to the rest of us.

The opening seven verses identify Paul as the author of the letter as well as to whom he was addressing it. Tertius merely slipped in his own greeting in 16:22 along with Paul's in the previous and latter verses.

In Colossians Paul ends it with a salutation or greeting in his own hand writing. Why does he say this? Most likely because the rest of the letter was written by another person to whom he dictated and he wanted his readers to know the greeting comes directly from him and not indirectly through a translator. He did the same thing in 2 Thessalonians 17-18.

In Galatians 6:11 he makes it a point to inform the readers that the large writing was from his own hand. Why would he have to mention this unless it was not expected? In other words, his readers were likely accustomed to Paul's letters being written by another person on his behalf but this time he wrote it himself and to add emphasis he pointed this out.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

I am sorry kiwidan that you are not seeing what seems to be clear to the rest of us.

The opening seven verses identify Paul as the author of the letter as well as to whom he was addressing it. Tertius merely slipped in his own greeting in 16:22 along with Paul's in the previous and latter verses.

In Colossians Paul ends it with a salutation or greeting in his own hand writing. Why does he say this? Most likely because the rest of the letter was written by another person to whom he dictated and he wanted his readers to know the greeting comes directly from him and not indirectly through a translator. He did the same thing in 2 Thessalonians 17-18.

In Galatians 6:11 he makes it a point to inform the readers that the large writing was from his own hand. Why would he have to mention this unless it was not expected? In other words, his readers were likely accustomed to Paul's letters being written by another person on his behalf but this time he wrote it himself and to add emphasis he pointed this out.

The opening verses don't clearly clarify and identify him as the Author in my eyes, they start like Paul called to be an aspotle, peace and greetings, to the chruch of so and so.

Why would Paul have ever needed someone to write for him, as it goes he was more than capable of writting letters with his own hand.

As you said in your reply "most likely" and most likely is not a fact, it's just an assumption.

If Tertius slipped in his greeting surely it would be obvious rather than just saying that he wrote the espisle.

I do appreciate and thank you for you reply and opinion, I will have a look deeper into it. If Paul wrote it I'm sure I will find out.