Rushed into Marriage by the Church

[highlife]

So here is my issue: basicly our church leadership is really hounding people regarding living together without being legally married. This is not like teenages but mature couples who have been together for years. How much hounding should other members or the leadership be doing if the individuals involved are working to remedy the issue but just arent doing it fast enough for the churchs liking? Is this an issue of the church not excersizing patences in giving people the time to put their house in order?

I can understand something being said initially but once something is said and there IS action on the recipients part but just not fast enough for the church who is in the wrong?

I am now legally married but we got the same badgering that went beyond the initial converstation and they even knew we had a date set to get legally married and continued the harrasment. We held our ground and said this is our wedding date and we dont appreciate the continued "discussions" when we are already in the process of complying and the date was on their books. Our friends are now enduring the same abuse, my wife thinks its an issue of the leadership being bored and want to apply some kind of "disapline".

I have sent some pointed emails to our pastor as I think the leadership is stepping out of line but was wondering what others have experienced. Its not like myself and thoes I know are not working on it, its just a matter of rate. I think its really sad becuase these overbearing methods can push people away from christ.

 

[Tina]

The title of your thread does not seem to fit your post ...


..... and I think your church leaders are too free..

 

[Mike]

I think its really sad becuase these overbearing methods can push people away from christ.

You know what would be worse? A pastor who turned a blind eye to what you were doing. Seriously. Why didn't you want to get married? Were you just giving it a spin to see if it fit? I'm honestly not trying to be snippy. I see the two interrelated. You were living together out of wedlock and didn't want to get married for a while. A church should just be okay with this?

People often want to go to church and want only to be affirmed that they are okay doing that they're doing. Our pastor once told a couple in their 50's who were living together that they needed to either live alone to tie that not, and it had to happen soon. They told me that; not him or anyone else. He didn't win any popularity contests with these two, but he has the respect of his congregation.

 

[reba]

Fornication is fornication doesn't matter if one is a teenager or a elder.

A Christian will do his/her best to live by the Scriptures.

We strive not to lie, cheat, steal, murder, fornicate, worship other Gods. Not that any one i know is perfect but to deliberately set up life style of sin doesn't sound Christian to me. Living together is no more of a sin then 'sleeping' together.

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


A pastor who loves his flock will strongly encourage them out of such things.

 

[highlife]

I dont disagree with what anyone is saying, but when they have a date set to get legally married are they not complying, just because it is not at the rate that the church likes gives them a licence to harras people.

In all the cases, after the initial discussion everyone agreed to set a date and get legally married. There is the issue where they wanted us to move apart until the wedding date and we simply said no (we had been having sex and living together for years, we did not see any good reason to stop for almost a year when we knew we were commited to each other and the bible never speaks of a piece of paper being a requirement, it was more or less just to make the church happy but we were not going to give up 8 months of a sex life for a non biblical formality lol) and asked if we were still welcome at church, had he said no then thats the leaderships decision and we would have went our separate ways and stayed separated indefinitly well after our wedding date and had to find a new church or just studied on our own (where 2 or more are gathered, my wife and I)

Fortunatly we are still welcome there but the badgering our friends our enduring is not fun, I guess once all of our friends in relationships get legally married we wont have to keep hearing about these issues.

I dont know maybe at the end of the day we were in the wrong but of what benifit is it to hound someone. Also I seem to remember reading somewhere that fornication was a gross mistranslation of idol worship that was tied to temple prostitution, I could be wrong on that one as well.

 

[highlife]

You know what would be worse? A pastor who turned a blind eye to what you were doing. Seriously. Why didn't you want to get married? Were you just giving it a spin to see if it fit? I'm honestly not trying to be snippy. I see the two interrelated. You were living together out of wedlock and didn't want to get married for a while. A church should just be okay with this?

People often want to go to church and want only to be affirmed that they are okay doing that they're doing. Our pastor once told a couple in their 50's who were living together that they needed to either live alone to tie that not, and it had to happen soon. They told me that; not him or anyone else. He didn't win any popularity contests with these two, but he has the respect of his congregation.

Becasue my wife wanted a big wedding and all the planning and money that went into it. But yes the couple years leading up to that were a trial run, why jump into a potential incompatable relationship with a legal contract with the state tied to it that is a mess to get out of. When you think about it terms of pure logic it makes no sense to jump right into a legal contract with the state when you have no idea of compatibility. I understand the chuch does not like this but I see no other way around it.

It is a serious problem, I did not mean for this to get into phylosophy but the short answer is yes we were as some would say "test driving" before we buy, sorry it works better than the churchs way in my experience.

I mean what are the solutions to these issues other than just too bad so sad? Thats not really a solution.

 

[Tina]

There is the issue where they wanted us to move apart until the wedding date and we simply said no ...

Simply said NO ??

Are'nt we being defiant ? The church meant well when they admonish sins but it will often seem like badgering and harassment for some who are in denial of wilfully and persistently living in sins ...

 

[reba]

Not every one is cut out to be Christian.

 

[highlife]

Not every one is cut out to be Christian.

I guess, but what are your alternatives. Being separated from God is not really an acceptable alternative to me so I guess I am just anther flawed human being. Unfortunatly these particular set of flaws seem to be magnified much more than other types of sin in the church.

 

[highlife]

Simply said NO ??

Are'nt we being defiant ? The church meant well when they admonish sins but it will often seem like badgering and harassment for some who are in denial of wilfully and persistently living in sins ...

Yea, maybe your right. I still cant shake the fact that there is nothign in the bible on legal pieces of paper to become married. If it was THAT important where the absense of it was sin then it would be at least somewhere in the bible in plain straightforward language.

 

[Tina]

Unfortunatly these particular set of flaws seem to be magnified much more than other types of sin in the church.

That's probably because promiscuity and pre-marital sex are the most rampant and wilful sins the church is trying to overcome.

 

[highlife]

That's probably because promiscuity and pre-marital sex are the most rampant and wilful sins the church is trying to overcome.

The only real solution is to have arranged marriages at a young age, until things go back to the way they were in bible times you will have these problems running rampant. But even then you still risk a moderate to high divorce and remarriage rate just as they did in OT times, so is it really that much different.

You will be getting rid of premartial sex and drasticly increasing the divorce rate due to later incompatibility issues from marrying so young. Then when they divorce they are back into the pre marital sex arena unless of course another quick arranged marriage can be had. The only way to over come it is if spouses did not sin against each other thus causing the divorces in the first place coupled with VERY young marriages.

What the church is doing now is equivalent to bailing water with a small paper cup when the hole in the tanker is a foot in diameter. Hitting people over the head with a bible is not a solution its adding fuel to the fire.

 

[Denique Coelum]

I'd say that there's faults on both sides there.

highlife, I think it would be a gracious, Christian act on your part to accede to the wishes of your church. Also, sex out of wedlock is a sin, and simply because you've been committing it for a while, doesn't mean that God won't be pleased if you stop it from now until the wedding. In my view, it would be appropriate behaviour, and conscience would suggest it was the right course of action. I agree, however, that a legal marriage is simply a piece of paper, and that a marriage in Christ is an entirely different matter. I think that in order to fulfil righteousness, one should fulfil the law of the land and be legally married, but it's also important to be married in Christ. To take an example, two young people with whom I walk in fellowship were to be married, and it was a Transatlantic affair. Due to some complication with visas, the English girl had to go over to the USA and get legally married. Having done this, the couple refused to consummate the marriage or live together until they could be properly 'married before the Lord' and having a 'wedding meeting' with our brethren. So they did this, and are now happily married.

However, I also find fault with the "leadership", if they have indeed been badgering you. They may have the Scriptural right on their side, but all Christians should be gracious and patient with one another. This is yet another problem I find with un-scriptural practice of having elected officials and church leaders in Christendom, authority is given to one person or a small group of persons, and they exercise it over-zealously for the sake, not of the testimony, but of their own reputation. We should be subject to one another and overall to Christ, and no-one has the man-given right to authority. Nonetheless, I would be entirely sympathetic with the exercise of the pastor in this case, and would suggest that if you don't feel it's appropriate to be subject to him, you should take up the matter with God.

 

[Denique Coelum]

The only real solution is to have arranged marriages at a young age, until things go back to the way they were in bible times you will have these problems running rampant. But even then you still risk a moderate to high divorce and remarriage rate just as they did in OT times, so is it really that much different.

You will be getting rid of premartial sex and drasticly increasing the divorce rate due to later incompatibility issues from marrying so young. Then when they divorce they are back into the pre marital sex arena unless of course another quick arranged marriage can be had. The only way to over come it is if spouses did not sin against each other thus causing the divorces in the first place coupled with VERY young marriages.

What the church is doing now is equivalent to bailing water with a small paper cup when the hole in the tanker is a foot in diameter. Hitting people over the head with a bible is not a solution its adding fuel to the fire.

When two believers want to marry, no matter how young they are, they have guidance which unbelievers in the same situation do not. I'm not talking about the church primarily, though hopefully it would have the Lord's mind. Christians, young or old, can pray for guidance. I think that if guidance is asked for, God will not refuse to give it, and thus marriages which would otherwise fail would be avoided and couples who do go on to marry can have the assurance that the union is blessed.

 

[Mike]

When two believers want to marry, no matter how young they are, they have guidance which unbelievers in the same situation do not. I'm not talking about the church primarily, though hopefully it would have the Lord's mind. Christians, young or old, can pray for guidance. I think that if guidance is asked for, God will not refuse to give it, and thus marriages which would otherwise fail would be avoided and couples who do go on to marry can have the assurance that the union is blessed.

Highlife, there was good stuff from the ones above me. You admitted that this had been a "trial run". Scripture speaks against that for sure, and as DC said, you could have chosen that day to separate and start new with God and then come together again as husband and wife. When we are Brought into His Love, we are new creations, and the past is the past. Continuing the rebellion is... rebellion.

There have never been any studies proving that living together prior to marriage results in better success rates. That's a myth, sometimes used to justify living in sin. You're right about one thing. A piece of paper is just a piece of paper. But when the Lord Creates a Covenant between two people, He Authors their union. We do need to submit to the law of the land unless it tells us to forsake the Lord. You weren't being made to forsake Him. You pastor was leading his flock in the way of the Lord as he saw it, and I'm not sure if he was "badgering" you or you were perceiving it this way because you didn't want to hear it.

 

[reba]

I guess, but what are your alternatives. Being separated from God is not really an acceptable alternative to me so I guess I am just anther flawed human being. Unfortunatly these particular set of flaws seem to be magnified much more than other types of sin in the church.

Could be this is why...

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[reba]

Justification of our sins is just plain ugly.

 

[highlife]

Highlife, there was good stuff from the ones above me. You admitted that this had been a "trial run". Scripture speaks against that for sure, and as DC said, you could have chosen that day to separate and start new with God and then come together again as husband and wife. When we are Brought into His Love, we are new creations, and the past is the past. Continuing the rebellion is... rebellion.

There have never been any studies proving that living together prior to marriage results in better success rates. That's a myth, sometimes used to justify living in sin. You're right about one thing. A piece of paper is just a piece of paper. But when the Lord Creates a Covenant between two people, He Authors their union. We do need to submit to the law of the land unless it tells us to forsake the Lord. You weren't being made to forsake Him. You pastor was leading his flock in the way of the Lord as he saw it, and I'm not sure if he was "badgering" you or you were perceiving it this way because you didn't want to hear it.

There is probably some element of truth to that where I blew things out of proportion. I think it compounded things when we had another group of friends in the same boat and my wife talks to the other guys girlfriend and we get to hear about the same badgering all over again.

None of us are trying to flagrantly circumvent what we know to be solidly in scripture but we all have a hard time buying into the fact that sex in the absense of a piece of paper is sin. There is the law of the land scripture but if I remember correctly that was refering to a totally different topic.

I probably ought to appologize for the emails I sent on sunday and just ignore the best I can the talks that our friends are going through. We are already married so we dont get talked to any more. Although when there is no clear link in the bible to "no piece of paper" = sin I cant really convict others of it when I cant prove something myself. Useing the law of the land scripture is a fairly far reaching logical gymnastics in my opinion considering it is in the context of something completely unrelated.

If someone had a different BF/GF every month then I would feel comfortable talking to them myself but monogomas couples who have been together for years without a piece of paper equaling sin ..... im not so sure.

To go further in the faith I think I need to sit down with my pastor and understand why so many churchs believe that if you dont have a piece of paper your sinning. I have done alot of study on that topic so I am guessing we will have to agree to disagree and I will not feel comfortable having acusitional conversations with others if I cant prove it in the bible myself.

 

[highlife]

Justification of our sins is just plain ugly.

I guess I am struggling with making the logical leap that "no piece of paper" = sin

I agree that things like one night stands, prostitution, hook ups, what have you are definitly sin. But when one is commited to someone else to stay with them barring there are no major sin issues that would cause the relationship to fail, I dont see that as being sin.

I think in our case our "test drive" was to make sure there would be no refusal and that if there was we could split without the headach of legal paper work and it would be biblically justified. You cant know if there is refusal if your not doing it. Alot of christians dont believe refusal is a cause for divorce anyways but its very clearly a sin issue that wrecks ones quality of life and thus in my mind is a very justifiable cause for divorce ... and quick.

The paper work and court dates of even a disolusionment is a nightmare so why even go there if you can weed out thoes problems without that head ach.

I guess that is a litmus test for me is how is your intrupretation effecting your quality of life, if its wrecking it then you have to really question what you believe since God is suppose to have our best interests in mind.

Then once everything is ironed out in the marriage the legal part is just a formallity, back in the day a certificate of divorcement was writen and that was that, there was no exploitation of assets, child support payments, lenghty and costly court battles. You can hardly blame a guy for making double sure he knows what he is getting into before he signs that marriage contract. Its not like bible times these days.

 

[handy]

But yes the couple years leading up to that were a trial run, why jump into a potential incompatable relationship with a legal contract with the state tied to it that is a mess to get out of.

I think in our case our "test drive" was to make sure there would be no refusal and that if there was we could split without the headach of legal paper work and it would be biblically justified.

It took at least two years to figure out that she wasn't going to refuse to have sex with you?

hmmmmm, seems as though my husband and I got that figured out just by some decent communication prior to our marriage....

The reason why there is no mention of the "piece of paper" in the Scriptures is because what constitutes marriage is something that is dictated in various ways by various cultures. Even in the old testament there was more than just two people having sex with one another...there was a definite difference in status and legal protection if one was a wife as opposed to a concubine.

As for legal protection back then though...one of the assets of living under the covenant of grace brought to us by Jesus Christ is that women are not at the disadvantage as they were under Moses' law, that was allowed only because of the sinfulness of men's hearts.

In the old testament, Issac married Rebecca by the paying of a dowry to her relatives (via his servant) and the expressed intent to her relatives that she was to be Issac's wife; also, when Boaz married Ruth he did so before all the witnesses of the court, and very pointed in that story was the fact that they did not have sex prior to the marriage. In the new testament, we see Jesus at the wedding in Cana, a celebration that lasted for quite a while. In our day, and in our land, despite all the trappings of weddings, marriage is only considered legal if there is that "piece of paper". To eschew the "piece of paper", but live together whilst saving up to have a big wedding is...well, to give my honest opinion...not only fornication but hypocrisy as well.

Some couples go to the court and sign marriage licenses (thus are legally married) and have weddings later on. This is what a young couple I know did, because he was in the military and was being called over to Iraq. He wanted her to be married to him so that she could have the military benefits. They had the wedding when he returned.

I don't understand why this isn't more often considered a reasonable way of doing things, when a couple cannot afford a big wedding without saving up for several years for it, but don't want to wait for several years. My husband and I actually talked about doing this when we realized it would make more sense to wait for 6 months to have our wedding, so that we could coincide the wedding with the already planned 80th birthday party for his grandfather. Most of his family live back east and plans were already made for many for one trip out west. We discussed going to the court and being legally married...but decided that we had already waited so long, we could wait another 6 months.