salvation and the loss of it

Discussion in 'Theology' started by dirtfarmer, May 15, 2017.

  1. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    Jude 1:5
    I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
     
  2. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    Heb 3:12-13
    Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

    Hardness of heart can be understood by seeing how calluses form on your hand. They are a thickened layers of skin, dead skin, that build up when that particular part of the hand is subjected to harsh conditions, over and over. When they become thick enough, you no longer feel anything in that portion of your hand. I've known some people that use there hands a lot that have some tremendous calluses all over the palm of their hand.

    When we subject our hearts to harsh, sinful things, over and over - that sin slowly hardens our heart - making it less and less sensitive to God and His desire. The less sensitive to Him we become, the 'easier' it is to wonder away.

    Eph 4:17
    Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.
     
  3. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Wow. You're right, Brother. So being led by the Spirit, we are in fellowship? Yielding to the Spirit brings the Spirit back, and that means laying down that sin. 99% just wont cut it. Obedience and yielding.
     
  4. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    The deceitfulness of sin.... I sense that you are focusing more on those who would continue in what you would characterize as continual sin. But I am reminded of the words of Jesus when he cautioned that because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold (Matt 24:12). One only need read the threads in the current events forum to see this in action. Their hearts are not hardened because of their own sins, their hearts are hardened because they sit in judgement over the sins of others. Their hearts are hardened because the love of Christ is not in them.
     
  5. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    I would not go so far as to say the Spirit leaves a person when they just 'sin'. If that was the case, then you could say a person waffles back and forth between having eternal life and not - scary, but not true.

    I know some people who actually do believe that. But the Spirit in us is there to lead us back when we do sin. That is His role in the world, and in our lives. When a person becomes so hardened in their heart to the Spirits leading - then they leave the covering of Christ.

    Jhn 16:7-11
    Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

     
  6. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    Your right, but that judgement of others is because of their sin - it is their sin to judge others.

    Our command is to love - love God, and love each other. When we break that command, we sin. That sin is manifested in how we treat others - fruit.
     
  7. Kidron

    Kidron Member

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    Jude is not talking to the born again who are eternally secure.
    Jude is referring to these scriptures.

    2nd Thessalonians 1:7-8

    """""""" This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"""""""""

    This is why Jude's verse is strictly speaking to those that "believe not"., as those are the ones who in 2nd Thess, have not ""obeyed the Gospel""".
    These are Christ Rejectors who were never saved., as to "obey the Gospel" is to "do the work of God"...and to "do the work of God, is to BELIEVE ON THE ONE HE SENT" .... John 6:29

    SO, all those verses are absolutely not directed at a child of God, tho many who want to create the false impression that you can lose your salvation will twist those verses into out of context pretzels trying to damn the born again into hell.
    However, Those verses are directed only towards the CHRIST REJECTOR, as its only the Christ Rejector who has committed the "unpardonable sin" of dying unpardoned ........which IS to die having rejected CHRIST.
    Jesus refers to these as "dying in your sins if you do not believe I AM HE (Messiah). John 8:24.
    And they as well as those same type who are alive when Jesus comes to take his vengeance, as described in Thessalonians , are in for a severe situation, that will NEVER END.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  8. dirtfarmer

    dirtfarmer Member

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    hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

    What is the difference between "for" and "unto"? Do they not have reference to "the day of reconciliation of all things? You do understand "the day of reconciliation of all things"?
    Colossians 1:20, " And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself, I say, whether they be tings in earth or things in heaven."
    So, yes, Romans 8:35-39 has a relations with Ephesians 4:30, the day of redemption and is revealed when , only Christ has the power to break the seals of the title deed to the earth beginning in Revelation 5.

    While I agree that sin is missing the mark, but if you look at Genesis 5 it is stated that Adam's offspring was after his image and likeness, not after the image and likeness of God. When Adam sinned he lost the relationship between him and God, and if no relationship then there could not be fellowship. Fellowship is dependent upon a relationship, even between people. God restored that relationship between Himself and Adam, by the coats of skins that he prepared to cover Adam's nakedness, and then fellowship could be restored.

    When Adam sinned, Satan became the god, ruler, of this world's system by usurping that power from Adam. That is the reconciliation of all things that is mentioned in the new testament.

    When we are born, we are born sinners and therefore no relationship exist. We are part of God's creation, but not part of his family. It is necessary to be born again to become part of God's family.

    The reason that salvation is come to the Gentiles is to make Israel jealous.
    Romans 11:11, " I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."


    God chose Israel because he promised Abram that his descendants would become a great nation. Israel was to be the model to the rest of the world that if they obeyed Him they would be blessed. Israel was to be a kingdom of priest, an holy nation, that if they obeyed God they would also be blessed.

    It is true, they were cut off because of unbelief, not because they didn't obey the law. Disobedience to the law resulted in a break of fellowship, not a loss of relationship. Even those of "unbelief" passed through the Red Sea without drowning, were fed manna from heaven, and their shoes lasted 40 years. All those that were 20 years old and up, which left Egypt, all died in the wilderness except for Joshua and Caleb.

    When a saint sins "the accuser of the brethren", making accusation in the presence of God, but Jesus, our high priest, presents our case before God that since we have died and have been resurrected in him, his righteousness is imputed to us and it is as if we had never sinned.
     
  9. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    Exactly, they were cut off because of unbelief - even after they were 'saved' from the land of Egypt.

    Jesus can, and only will, make intercession for us to the Father - if we are in Him. If we leave Him, through unbelief, then there no more remains a sacrifice for our sin.

    It was through continual, and willful sin, that the people of God disbelieved. Their sin led to disbelief, and that disbelief resulted in being cut off. We are not any greater than them to think that continual and willful sin will not do the same to us.

    It is through the blood of Christ that our sins are covered. If we leave that covering of Christ, then we bear the sins our self. There is no way for us to appease God if we deny Christ's sacrifice.
     
  10. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    How do we leave him through unbelief. What is the mechanism that determines unbelief?

    Then there no more remains a sacrifice for our sin.... What must a sinner then depend upon if there is no more sacrifice for sin?
     
  11. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    Simple answer is sin. Christ wants us to have faith in Him. Sin causes us to make a choice - Him or us. A person of faith, when confronted with sin, will choose Christ. When we choose Christ, it is required we turn from sin.

    We cannot choose both. So when we choose sin, it means we have to turn our back toward Him. When a person does this over, and over, and over - never turning back - their hearts become hardened.

    In a believers life, this does not happen without discipline. When we do not submit to this discipline, our hearts grow harder.

    I do not suppose to know at what point a persons heart becomes completely hardened. But when it does, it no longer is capable of submitting to God.

    The parable of the sower is the utmost example of this. When the heart becomes completely hardened - then they no longer believe in the perfect sacrifice for their sin. It is not that the sacrifice has not been made, it is that they no longer accept it on their behalf.

    Many will choose rather to believe in something they do as being what saves them. Others, simply will not care anymore.

    The most disturbing thing I know is when people tell others to do one or the other(or both) of the above, when they start doubting. That's the worst thing a person can do when they are faced with doubt.

    When faced with doubt, we should turn whole heartedly toward Christ - which means we have to turn away from sin - resting in His faith and work in our lives.
     
  12. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    Okay, no disagreement with that statement.

    If we leave that covering........

    If we leave that covering, then what have we returned to?

    What is it that manifests the knowledge of sin in us?
     
  13. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    The law - as you know. :)

    The law, whether we will admit it or not, makes the flesh in us feel good. It is the half truth of satan. When we try and justify ourselves, on the basis of what we do/have done, then it makes us feel like we're in control - 'godlike'.

    We only fool ourselves when we do that though. Because we are not held accountable in how much of the law we do and do not do, we are held accountable only for that which is less than perfect.

    So you could keep the entire law, and miss one little point - and that means your guilty of it all. The same as a person who broke every single point.

    James 2:10 (ESV) 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

    The deceiver will tell us that our good can outweigh our bad. Even saying that the one good command of saying a prayer, or being baptized, is enough.

    While the truth is God requires us to have faith. And that faith is to be in Christ, not ourselves and what we have done.
     
  14. dirtfarmer

    dirtfarmer Member

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    hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

    It is true, that through the blood of Christ, our sin has been paid for, but for us to have to keep ourselves saved is error and mis-understanding of salvation. Israel is the type that gives us our understanding of salvation. God had told Moses, in Exodus 3:8, to tell the Israelites; " And I am come down to deliver them out of the hands of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of the land unto a good land and large, unto to a land flowing with milk and honey;" In Exodus 14:14 we are told that the LORD shall fight our fights. We are to go forward, even if there are mountains all around with no way to escape and a sea before us. God will part the waters and we can go forward on dry ground.

    The children lacked faith. Even though that saw how God dealt with the god's of Egypt during the plagues and the last one was even extended to any one that was behind the blood on the door post, their first born was "passed over, Israelite or Egyptian. They didn't have any faith, at the edge of the Red Sea before God parted the water: Exodus 14:11-13

    All through their journey, the Israelites revealed their unbelief, lack of faith. We are told in Deuteronomy 1:2 that it was 11 days journey from Horeb by way of mount Seir unto Kadesh-barnea, so why did it take 40 years of wandering in the wilderness to enter the promised land? It took that long for the old man, the flesh, to die and the new man, the Spiritual, to believe God. Only Joshua and Caleb enter the land of promise of those that crossed the Red Sea. We are told that they, Joshua and Caleb, never questioned God's faithfulness to his word

    We are told that our salvation is secure in the word of God, that it is He that keeps us. No one can cause us to lose our salvation, not even we ourselves.

    It is impossible to be "in-born again". We don't have the power to break the seal of the Holy Spirit.
     
  15. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    So we can agree that to leave the faith in Christ is to return to the elements and works of the Law. If someone falls away from the faith, then there is no more sacrifice for sin. If there is no more sacrifice for sin, then when the law reveals new sin to us, is it not a sign of unbelief to ask for repentance under the blood again? As if asking for a new covering. As Paul stated in the book of Hebrews, seeing they crucify Christ to themselves again.
     
  16. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    I never want someone to think I believe we keep ourselves saved.

    We simply need to believe in Christ for salvation, not in something we did.

    We can't lose salvation, we can only turn away from it. I've never found a passage to state otherwise.

    What we see, from the example of the children of Israel, is that God saved them from Egypt - without any help whatsoever from them. None.

    The words and action of God, through Moses, is what brought them out. Just like God saves us, not by anything we do, but through the words and action of grace.

    But just as after they left Egypt, and then later kept on with unbelief, they were destroyed - never truly entering into His rest.

    So to, if we keep with our unbelief, we will be destroyed.

    Being "born again" does not mean a person has to be unborn in order to turn from God in complete disbelief. Disbelief is sin, sin leads to death.

    Your correct that God keeps us, and we are saved in Christ. If we turn from Christ in unbelief, then what will save us?

    Did you know God set His 'mark' upon the Children of Israel - yet they broke that mark.

    Exodus 31
    12 And the LORD said to Moses,
    13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
    14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
    15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
    16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
    17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"


    Deuteronomy 6
    1 "Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the LORD your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it,
    2 that you may fear the LORD your God, you and your son and your son's son, by keeping all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be long.
    3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and be careful to do them, that it may go well with you, and that you may multiply greatly, as the LORD, the God of your fathers, has promised you, in a land flowing with milk and honey.
    4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
    5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
    6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.
    7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
    8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
    9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
    10 "And when the LORD your God brings you into the land that he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give you-with great and good cities that you did not build,
    11 and houses full of all good things that you did not fill, and cisterns that you did not dig, and vineyards and olive trees that you did not plant-and when you eat and are full,
    12 then take care lest you forget the LORD, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
    13 It is the LORD your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear.
    14 You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you-
    15 for the LORD your God in your midst is a jealous God-lest the anger of the LORD your God be kindled against you, and he destroy you from off the face of the earth.
    16 "You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah.
    17 You shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies and his statutes, which he has commanded you.
    18 And you shall do what is right and good in the sight of the LORD, that it may go well with you, and that you may go in and take possession of the good land that the LORD swore to give to your fathers
    19 by thrusting out all your enemies from before you, as the LORD has promised.
    20 "When your son asks you in time to come, 'What is the meaning of the testimonies and the statutes and the rules that the LORD our God has commanded you?'
    21 then you shall say to your son, 'We were Pharaoh's slaves in Egypt. And the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand.
    22 And the LORD showed signs and wonders, great and grievous, against Egypt and against Pharaoh and all his household, before our eyes.
    23 And he brought us out from there, that he might bring us in and give us the land that he swore to give to our fathers.
    24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as we are this day.
    25 And it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to do all this commandment before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us.'

    The children of Israel broke that sign, which God gave them, that He set upon them, when they profaned the sabbath.

    When we, in like manner, profane the rest God gives us - the sign(seal) of the Spirit that gives us rest(in Christ) - then we should no more think we will be any better off than they were.
     
  17. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    I believe those who have turned from Christ, sold their birthright, do not seek repentance. They may seek the gift of God that comes through repentance, but they seek it without repentance. Esau sought his birthright, but found no repentance for it.

    If a person turns back to self righteouness(works), then they are so hardened to Christ they do not want His righteousness - they just want the blessing of eternal life. However, they want it based on their own works.

    It's not unbelief to repent from sin if God calls a person to it. It is actually a sign of faith working in a person, to repent. Unbelief comes when that person thinks they have to do something, or worse yet can do something, to earn that repentance.

    They don't seek to crucify Christ again in their minds, they simply don't believe His death was enough already. That's why when a person becomes totally hardened, turning away, will never repent - because to them it is as if Christ has to die again - they don't value His sacrifice, just the blessing that comes from it.

    When Esau sold his birthright, then later desired the blessing - he still thought he should receive the blessing even though he still believed the birthright he had been given was worthless. He did not see the birthright as the means for the blessing, rather He though the blessing should be given regardless of the birthright he thought of as worthless. His focus was on what he wanted, instead of what he was given.
     
  18. dirtfarmer

    dirtfarmer Member

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    hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

    What is your definition of "disbelief"? What "mark' did God set upon the children of Israel? How do we profane the rest that God gives us? How is that we can't lose salvation, but we can turn from it? Do you believe that we can turn from Satan without turning to God?
     
  19. Pete_

    Pete_ Member

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    In the context of being "saved by faith", is faith a one off event? (you do it once and never repeat it, like taking your first breath) Or is it a process, a continuum ... (like breathing), without which you die?

    • "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen". (Heb 11:1)
    • "... if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard ..." (Col 1:23)
    • "... we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence..." (Heb 3:6)
    • " Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering..." (Heb 10:23)
    • ... etc.
     
  20. Cygnus

    Cygnus Member

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    Some might say you're actually saved before you even believe. God regenerates you..grants you the ability to come to Christ...to believe.
     

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