salvation and the loss of it

[JLB]

What about those that are not in the graves, but still alive, what happens to them?

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:41-43

Here is the scriptural definition of a person who is righteous.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

• He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Do you believe a person who practices the works of the flesh, is righteous?

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[edited]

Do you believe a person who practices the works of the flesh, is righteous?

• they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

JLB

 

[Nathan]

So then, from that notion, Moses lost salvation and didn't make it to heaven. Which is totally disproved by the plain fact that he was present when Jesus was transfigured.

No, I never said that. You are inserting your own interpretation into my post. Go back and read it again for context. Unless you are specifically trying to attack me?

I see. Kinda like a yo-yo then. Get saved, lose it, get saved again, lose it again, and on and on. Which text gives us this kind of insight?

My point was that Moses was in the SAME BOAT as the rest of the first generation, except Caleb and Joshua. So if "entering the promised land" is equivalent to entering heaven, then Moses WAS NOT SAVED.

No, not a yo-yo. There is a difference between breaking faith, and forsaking it. Moses broke faith, but never forsook it. The Children of Israel broke faith, then forsook it.

The Children of Israel who broke faith and forsook it were blotted from God's book.

Exo 32:33-34
But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book. But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.”

Moses was most certainly not in the same boat as the others. Moses did not turn His back on God like the others.

Moses could NOT enter the promised land. Is that understood?

[QUOT]Sharing in Christ is exactly what it says - partaking in Christ. There is no need to try and twist and make it mean something else it does not mean.

It means fellowship. We do NOT "partner" with Christ regarding our salvation. That's the view of the RCC.[/QUOTE]
I never said we partnered with Christ for our salvation. It is only IN Christ we have salvation. We have come to share IN Christ if we hold our original confidence to the end. You cannot say that you are IN Christ just based on something you did at a moment in time, no different than the Children of Israel could say they were in the promise land because they had been brought out of Egypt.

Heb 3:14
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

I am hoping this is a metaphor and not literal. As a metaphor, what does it mean to you?

Humans need food. We were created by God to physically eat and drink. It is impossible to live(physically) if you do not eat or drink.

The same is true spiritually.

We were created(born from above) to eat and drink of Christ. It is impossible to live(eternally) if you do not eat and drink of Christ.

Some say that all we have to do is eat and drink of Christ one time. However, just as it is impossible to live physically if you were to eat and drink only one day of your life, so too it is impossible to live eternally if you just eat and drink of Christ one time.

To eat and drink of Christ means to constantly take in His words for growth, and to drink His blood is to receive His covering for the cleansing of our sin - it is His life that gives life to us. Life is in the blood - eternal life is ONLY in His blood.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"And in John 10:28 He said this: "I give them eternal life and they will never perish.""

Again, you only quote a part of the verse, and ignore the context.

What I said is correct. The rest of what Jesus said does NOT change the clear promise that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

The claim that recipients may perish goes directly against what Jesus promised in John 10:28.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:26-30

There is nothing in these verses that changes what Jesus promised: that recipients of eternal life will never perish.


Just what is He promising if not eternal security from the moment of believing in Him and receiving eternal life??????

Here in John 10:28, is a little word that you never mention, in the part of the verse you quote.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

So, please explain how that word undoes the promise that recipients of eternal life will never perish?

"And" is the Link word, that links the result with the condition.

Example: My men work all week for me and I pay them on Friday.

Faulty example. Because Jesus had ALREADY said that one HAS eternal life when they believe, from John 5:24. So we KNOW that is WHEN He gives eternal life: when one believes in Him.

So John 10:28 is a promise of eternal security FROM THE MOMENT OF faith in Him.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
JLB

Does this verse say anything about losing salvation or eternal life? No. Clearly not.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So then, from that notion, Moses lost salvation and didn't make it to heaven. Which is totally disproved by the plain fact that he was present when Jesus was transfigured."

No, I never said that. You are inserting your own interpretation into my post. Go back and read it again for context. Unless you are specifically trying to attack me?

Nonsense. My comment is based on your own view that Heb 3:19 refers to not having salvation by not entering the promised land. If Heb 3:19 is about those Jews who didn't enter the land as representing people who either were never saved or lost salvation, then one MUST also include Moses, as I shown from Scripture that he also never entered the land. But since he was present at the transfiguration, we know that such an interpretation is false.

No, not a yo-yo. There is a difference between breaking faith, and forsaking it. Moses broke faith, but never forsook it. The Children of Israel broke faith, then forsook it.

It is a yo-yo if one breaks faith, repents, breaks faith, repents, etc. So, how many times does the Bible say one can break faith and repent and end up saved? What number?

The Children of Israel who broke faith and forsook it were blotted from God's book.

Exo 32:33-34
But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book. But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.”

Please notice this "book" is not called the "book of life". This is a reference to the sin unto death (physical) for disobedience.

Moses was most certainly not in the same boat as the others. Moses did not turn His back on God like the others.

The Bible describes his rebellion against God as breaking faith.

 

[JLB]

Correct. Note the phrase "believes in Him who sent Me HAS eternal life". That's WHEN one POSSESSES eternal life. That's my point.

Your point is from a half of the verse, and only contains part of what Jesus said.

Here is what John 5:24 actually says in truth.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

You keeping leaving out the other part of the verse.

...he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,

Hears My word and believes.

Both are present tense.

In addition you also leave and do not address or discuss or refer to the rest of what Jesus taught about eternal life.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[Nathan]

Nonsense. My comment is based on your own view that Heb 3:19 refers to not having salvation by not entering the promised land. If Heb 3:19 is about those Jews who didn't enter the land as representing people who either were never saved or lost salvation, then one MUST also include Moses, as I shown from Scripture that he also never entered the land. But since he was present at the transfiguration, we know that such an interpretation is false.

Again, you are assuming that I mean something that I am not stating. Hebrews chapter 3 is most certainly dealing with salvation. It uses the example of the Children of Israel, the promise land, and belief as an example. You are the one that is trying to include Moses into the deal and make it mean more than what it does.

It is a yo-yo if one breaks faith, repents, breaks faith, repents, etc. So, how many times does the Bible say one can break faith and repent and end up saved? What number?

If you read my response you will see that it is not a number. It is a matter of whether one forsakes Christ for another faith, or keeps the faith of Christ they were given. Breaking faith and forsaking it are two separate things.

Please notice this "book" is not called the "book of life". This is a reference to the sin unto death (physical) for disobedience.

Where do you find that? Your statement does not even make any sense. God is going to blot their names from the book of "physical" life? So that means He did not blot Moses name from the book, which means Moses lived forever physically? That is complete contradiction. God most certainly meant the book of life. Read again when He states He will 'visit' their sin that causes them to be blotted out. He is speaking of the last day.

Exo 32:34
But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.

The Bible describes his rebellion against God as breaking faith.

Breaking faith and forsaking faith are separate things.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Correct. Note the phrase "believes in Him who sent Me HAS eternal life". That's WHEN one POSSESSES eternal life. That's my point."

Your point is from a half of the verse, and only contains part of what Jesus said.

Is my point taken or rejected?

Here is what John 5:24 actually says in truth.

Is this a suggestion that what I've posted isn't the truth???

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

You keeping leaving out the other part of the verse.

...he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,

Hears My word and believes.

How does that make my point untrue? This isn't making any sense.

Both are present tense.

Please review the Greek present tense so this verse can be understood correctly.

In addition you also leave and do not address or discuss or refer to the rest of what Jesus taught about eternal life.

I've pointed out EXACTLY what Jesus taught about it, and GAVE the verses to prove it.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28

It should be obvious that "done good" here is in reference to the hearing and believing in v.24. That's called "context". One would do well to note context.

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
JLB

No one gets resurrection of life apart from faith in Christ. Doing good has NOTHING to do with it.

v.24 defines what "done good" in v.28 means.

 

[FreeGrace]

Again, you are assuming that I mean something that I am not stating. Hebrews chapter 3 is most certainly dealing with salvation. It uses the example of the Children of Israel, the promise land, and belief as an example.

I've already explained how ch 3 isn't about salvation. With verses to support what I explained. Where is your support?

You are the one that is trying to include Moses into the deal and make it mean more than what it does.

Since 3:19 DIRECTLY applied to Moses as well as the entire first generation of the Exodus, except Joshua and Caleb, your view must conclude that Moses wasn't saved, or lost salvation. Which I've disproved by his appearance at the transfiguration.

Where do you find that? Your statement does not even make any sense. God is going to blot their names from the book of "physical" life?

It seems my point about God's discipline up to physical death was missed.

Breaking faith and forsaking faith are separate things.

If so, please explain how they are separate.

 

[Nathan]

I've already explained how ch 3 isn't about salvation. With verses to support what I explained. Where is your support?


Since 3:19 DIRECTLY applied to Moses as well as the entire first generation of the Exodus, except Joshua and Caleb, your view must conclude that Moses wasn't saved, or lost salvation. Which I've disproved by his appearance at the transfiguration.


It seems my point about God's discipline up to physical death was missed.


If so, please explain how they are separate.

Your point about God's discipline has no truth in the book of life. It is known that discipline is different than destruction. God blotted out the people who had forsook Him in favor of the Golden Calf. They were not disciplined, they were destroyed.

Breaking faith is when you 'sin' against God, but forsaking faith is when you sin against God and reject His forgiveness.

 

[JohnDB]

Shutting down until people can come up with reasonable arguments and reasonable discourse.

 

[reba]

This forum is here for discussion, Wouldn't it be nice if was pleasant discussion.. Are we so dead set on OUR knowledge being the only right answers we are unkind to one another.. These OSAS threads get closed often, not over the subject matter but over the way members respond to one another . How can we preach, with credibility, we are saved by Grace with out showing grace? ..

Is it time, guys ? to make any form of osas / nonosas off limits as a topic.. Put the topic in "time out " for bad behavour ? Do you want that is that why rudeness is pushed and pushed.?
Spoken as admin do not reply to this post in this thread.