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    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

salvation and the loss of it

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If God is there, and we will see His face, then there is no possible way for sin to be there in any shape or form.

Okay, good point. But God is here right now in us (having given birth to us, our souls), via the perfect, unchangable gift of the Holy Spirit. One might say a perfect gift.

James 1:17-18 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of change. By his will he gave birth to us through the message of truth, so that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
Do you believe there will be sin in heaven?
No.

death is a result of sin.
Yes. And eternal life is the result of new birth.
 
Okay, good point. But God is here right now in us (having given birth to us, our souls), via the perfect, unchangable gift of the Holy Spirit. One might say a perfect gift.

James 1:17-18 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of change. By his will he gave birth to us through the message of truth, so that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

No.


Yes. And eternal life is the result of new birth.
This is a deep subject for sure.

God is with us, in us, through His Spirit. In heaven, it will be God the Father Himself. The Spirit is in us, as His 'guarantee', until the day of redemption.

This goes even deeper when we contemplate how Jesus(God) and the Spirit(God) can dwell with man who sins - yet the Father(God) cannot at all. He could not even dwell with His Son when Christ took on our sins.

So in order for the passage to be true, that He will dwell with us, and we will see Him - there has to be no sin.

Eternal life is the result of new birth, and that is also why there will be no sin in heaven. Wouldn't be eternal life if there was sin present like there is now. :)
 
Most Christians are blinded with a veil over their face by the misinterpretation of the scriptures as Israel was and is to the very day (a evil spirit is behind this - that puts the Christian in bondage). They make the scriptures as a duty, instead of faith alone. It has always been hard for a Christian man then and now to give up the works of the flesh. They want to do what the scriptures says to do with the flesh (Romans 8:13), instead of following Gods prescribe order of victory which is placing Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus; which then allows the Holy Spirit to accomplish and bring victory and do what needs to be done in the Christian life. The Holy Spirit only works in the perimeters of Christ and the Finished Work. (Romans 8:2). The "Law" says do - "Grace" says done!

The Holy Spirit warns us through Paul by stating, "For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.. 22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:21-22

The letter kills (i.e., reading the scriptures and understanding the scriptures are two different things), but the Spirit brings life: This is why Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they have missed their opportunity (Luke 19:41-44).
 
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Most Christians are blinded with a veil over their face by the misinterpretation of the scriptures as Israel was and is to the very day (a evil spirit is behind this - that puts the Christian in bondage). They make the scriptures as a duty, instead of faith alone. It has always been hard for a Christian man then and now to give up the works of the flesh. They want to do what the scriptures says to do with the flesh (Romans 8:13), instead of following Gods prescribe order of victory which is placing Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus; which then allows the Holy Spirit to accomplish and bring victory and do what needs to be done in the Christian life. The Holy Spirit only works in the perimeters of Christ and the Finished Work. (Romans 8:2). The "Law" says do - "Grace" says done!

The Holy Spirit warns us through Paul by stating, "For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.. 22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:21-22

The letter kills (i.e., reading the scriptures and understanding the scriptures are two different things), but the Spirit brings life: This is why Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they have missed their opportunity (Luke 19:41-44).
VERY well put. :)
 
That sin, that we desire and pursue, can grow to choke out the life in us. When we sin by denying the discipline of God(heat of trials), it can wither that life in us.

All flesh is grass....

Isaiah 40:3-8
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord,
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be exalted,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low:
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,
and all flesh shall see it together:
for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
The voice said, Cry.
And he said, What shall I cry?
All flesh is grass,

and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth:
because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it:

surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth:
but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
 
All flesh is grass....

Isaiah 40:3-8
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord,
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be exalted,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low:
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,
and all flesh shall see it together:
for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
The voice said, Cry.
And he said, What shall I cry?
All flesh is grass,

and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth:
because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it:

surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth:
but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Amen

Matthew 3
1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.'"
4 Now John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him,
6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
 
I never want someone to think I believe we keep ourselves saved.
That's how those who believe in eternal security see it.

We simply need to believe in Christ for salvation, not in something we did.
Right. We don't work for salvation, nor do we deserve salvation. We are saved by grace, and kept by that same grace. Again, we do not earn it or deserve it.

We can't lose salvation, we can only turn away from it. I've never found a passage to state otherwise.
I've never found a passage that teaches that to "turn away" from our faith equals losing salvation.
 
And there is not a passage that says "Jesus loves me"

Does Galatians 2:20 work for you?

Or will it fail you because it does not say "all" or "me" or "Kidron", and it does not say "Jesus".

When i read this...."the Son of God, who LOVED ME and gave Himself for me"....i actually apply it like this.

Jesus who died on a cross because HE LOVES ME so much He gave himself for ME.

YMMV.


God bless,


K
 
That's how those who believe in eternal security see it.


Right. We don't work for salvation, nor do we deserve salvation. We are saved by grace, and kept by that same grace. Again, we do not earn it or deserve it.


I've never found a passage that teaches that to "turn away" from our faith equals losing salvation.
People are going to believe what they want, even thinking someone believes something they expressly say they don't. All I can do is defend the faith, and let people think what they will.

Hebrews 2
1 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.
2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,
4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
 
Nope it does not say Jesus loves me.. My take on this came from when i first got the computer and a Bible program.. I looked up a few terms.. Jesus loves me this i know for the Bible tells me so.. i did not find Jesus loves me .. or Jesus loves you... Yet we know He does..
another i tried was Heavenly language .. it aint there My mind does not recall the others just now...
My point is the Scriptures may not say things in exact terms but we know the meanings .. While understanding some things the Word says do not mean them as they are exactly stated .. Behold the Lamb of God . but we know what it says

Kidron seems Nathan sneaked in a post :)
 
reba said:
And there is not a passage that says "Jesus loves me"
Does Galatians 2:20 work for you?

Or will it fail you because it does not say "all" or "me" or "Kidron", and it does not say "Jesus".

When i read this...."the Son of God, who LOVED ME and gave Himself for me"....i actually apply it like this.

Jesus who died on a cross because HE LOVES ME so much He gave himself for ME.

YMMV.

God bless,
K
Not to forget John 3:16. If Jesus wasn't in agreement with His own Father about loving humanity, there'd be a huge problem.

And we see His attitude toward humanity when He asked His Father to forgive those (Roman soldiers and Jews) who were putting Him on the cross. If that isn't a sign of love, I don't know what is.
 
Nope it does not say Jesus loves me.. My take on this came from when i first got the computer and a Bible program.. I looked up a few terms.. Jesus loves me this i know for the Bible tells me so.. i did not find Jesus loves me .. or Jesus loves you... Yet we know He does..
How would we know this unless the Bible makes it clear?
 
mostly egos i think
when i came here about 6 years ago i was heavily on the 'side' of osas. Reading the attitudes and the presentations presented here by most (not all) of the OSAS camp, has changed my perspective. Then add the classic line said in one form or another .. "Well he was never really saved".. is kinda the clincher ... OSAS IMO excuses verse after verse which points to ( notice i did not say directly says) a turning away.. a falling.. Yet the Whole of Word is clear,,,, Looking back at the OT God told Abraham " if you obey" .

OSAS IMO skips over the word 'believe' as if it is not something we do... Yet i read many times the word believed...
Gen_15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Dan_6:23 Then was the king exceeding glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no manner of hurt was found upon him, because he believed in his God.

Psa_119:66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.


Dont bother picking apart my simplistic words .. it is the Whole of the Word of God that matters . He says clearly
Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

I will end with a mod type statement.. The discussion of OSAS is a good one. The way we speak to each other is not .. condescending. egotistical all those type of words.. do any of us really believe they are necessary to spread the gospel ..
 
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mostly egos i think
when i came here about 6 years ago i was heavily on the 'side' of osas. Reading the attitudes and the presentations presented here by most (not all) of the OSAS camp, has changed my perspective. Then add the classic line said in one form or another .. "Well he was never really saved".. is kinda the clincher ... OSAS IMO excuses verse after verse which points to ( notice i did not say directly says) a turning away.. a falling.. Yet the Whole of Word is clear,,,, Looking back at the OT God told Abraham " if you obey" .

OSAS IMO skips over the word 'believe' as if it is not something we do... Yet i read many times the word believed...
Gen_15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Dan_6:23 Then was the king exceeding glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no manner of hurt was found upon him, because he believed in his God.

Psa_119:66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.


Dont bother picking apart my simplistic words .. it is the Whole of the Word of God that matters . He says clearly
Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

I will end with a mod type statement.. The discussion of OSAS is a good one. The way we speak to each other is not .. condescending. egotistical all those type of words.. do any of really believe they are necessary to spread the gospel ..

You brought up an interesting thought. When people say "Well he was never really saved", is that not putting the responsibility of being saved onto the individual?

So here we have someone, who once professed faith in Christ, who we could see good(spiritual) fruit from, who then for some reason turns from Christ back into sin - how can we say he was not saved without making salvation that of works?

Did he not believe hard enough? Long enough? Does Christ reject some if they don't believe in Him a certain 'way'?

Can you fake good spiritual fruit? Can a bad tree bear good fruit?


I always had a really hard time with that statement - "never was really saved". The preacher I first really listened/sat under(who was OSAS) used to say that the distance between heaven and hell is 18". That's the distance between the brain and your heart. I spent many a night struggling with trying to understand if I had really believed with my heart, or if I had only done so with my head. Yep - I was tied up wondering if what I had 'done' was the right thing - without even knowing it, I had fell right into the trap of self-righteousness based on my ability to believe - despite my total rejection of salvation by works!

How many people struggle with this I wonder? Struggling with what they have done to "accept" Christ, rather than just believing that He has accepted them?
 
mostly egos i think
Yes, but I think there's more to it. The side favoring loss of salvation usually comes up with the most disgusting scenario that can be imagined, and then ask, how can that person go to heaven? So it seems to me, anyway, that there is a lot of emotion driving that side of the argument.

when i came here about 6 years ago i was heavily on the 'side' of osas. Reading the attitudes and the presentations presented here by most (not all) of the OSAS camp, has changed my perspective. Then add the classic line said in one form or another .. "Well he was never really saved".. is kinda the clincher ... OSAS IMO excuses verse after verse which points to ( notice i did not say directly says) a turning away.. a falling.. Yet the Whole of Word is clear,,,, Looking back at the OT God told Abraham " if you obey" .
It seems your view was swayed by the Calvinistic understanding of salvation. Since one of their TULIP points is perseverance of the saints, they simply can't accept that a believer could be an apostate. Yet, the Bible is clear about that possibility. I wish their misunderstanding of Scripture didn't have such an impact on the views of others regarding eternal security.

OSAS IMO skips over the word 'believe' as if it is not something we do... Yet i read many times the word believed...
I'm not sure I've seen that. It's the only thing we can do to be saved. Exactly Paul's answer to the jailer in Act 16:31.

Gen_15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Dan_6:23 Then was the king exceeding glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no manner of hurt was found upon him, because he believed in his God.

Psa_119:66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
Absolutely true. We must believe in order to be saved (Acts 16:31), receive eternal life (1 Tim 1:16), become a child of God (Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26), be justified (Rom 5:1), and to never perish (John 3:16).

Dont bother picking apart my simplistic words .. it is the Whole of the Word of God that matters . He says clearly
Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
I agree with this competely.
 
I always had a really hard time with that statement - "never was really saved". The preacher I first really listened/sat under(who was OSAS) used to say that the distance between heaven and hell is 18". That's the distance between the brain and your heart. I spent many a night struggling with trying to understand if I had really believed with my heart, or if I had only done so with my head. Yep - I was tied up wondering if what I had 'done' was the right thing - without even knowing it, I had fell right into the trap of self-righteousness based on my ability to believe - despite my total rejection of salvation by works!

How many people struggle with this I wonder? Struggling with what they have done to "accept" Christ, rather than just believing that He has accepted them?
Christ only accepts those who believe.
 
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