Nathan
Member
Salvation comes first, then belief. Chicken -----> Egg
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salvation and the loss of it
- Thread starter dirtfarmer
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Salvation comes first, then belief. Chicken -----> Egg
Nathan
Member
Turn from faith, by trusting in something false. Same way Adam and Eve fell.
Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Cygnus
Member
I was talking about the moment of conversion. I thought you were too.
Seemed like a question to me, with a typo.skipped the ?
Who else?
Here's the context:
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
37For, “In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”
38 And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.”
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
v.35 Confidence indicates trust. One who endures in faith will be rewarded. Just as 2 Tim 2:12 says.
v.36 The promise here is eternal reward, for persevering.
It would be a mistake to presume that salvation is a reward, because the very meaning of 'reward' indicates earning something. If salvation is earned, there is no grace in that. And Eph 2:8 tells us we are saved by grace through faith, and v.9 - not of works.
v.37 a reference to the Second Coming.
v.38 a statement of how the believer should live. Not a statement about how every believer lives.
v.39 The writer contrasts between those believe and those who don't believe.
I said this:
"Does this mean He causes one to believe? If so, where does Scripture say so? Thanks."
"Does this mean He causes one to believe? If so, where does Scripture say so? Thanks."
I'm not seeing how this verse teaches that God causes anyone to believe. Jn 6:45 teaches who will be drawn to Jesus; those who have listened and learned from the Father.
If it were, everyone would go to heaven. But the Bible is clear about the majority of humans will not go to heaven.
How should one understand 2 Cor 5:19?
He gave the human race that ability. It's called the intellect, with which to understand our choices.
Did you read Isa 7:15,16? About knowing right from wrong?
Why this necessity of refusing to accept that believing in Christ is "doing something". It's just not earning something.
Consider the jailer's question in Acts 16:30 - He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Paul didn't say anything close to "there's nothing you can do". He told him what he MUST DO to be saved in v.31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
So, believing is something we do to be saved. But it doesn't earn us salvation.
I don't know what it means to "muster" anything. Please explain.
Is it like "mustering a thought"?
Nathan
Member
Ah, actually, there are some that choose not to believe. Its amazing to think about it. The hand of God coming down, drawing a dead spirit to believe in His Son, and that dead spirit reject - that's amazing to me. However, it happened to me, and I am sure it has happened to a lot of people who did not come to Him the first time they heard the Gospel.
That's why I think it is so amazing(also) to think that God is so long suffering with us, not wanting anyone to perish.
I said this:
"We need to believe that He died for us for salvation."
If we're already saved, then there's no need to believe. Certainly Paul was serious when he answered the jailer's question of what He MUST DO to be saved: he must believe and he will be saved.
So belief comes before salvation. According to Paul and the rest of the Bible.
"We need to believe that He died for us for salvation."
This sounds very Calvinistic, which surprises me, given your view on loss of salvation.
If we're already saved, then there's no need to believe. Certainly Paul was serious when he answered the jailer's question of what He MUST DO to be saved: he must believe and he will be saved.
So belief comes before salvation. According to Paul and the rest of the Bible.
Nathan
Member
No one seeks after God.
Rom 3:9-11
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
Isaiah 7 speaks of Christ. He was without sin, therefore He could choose what was right and what was wrong.
One of the most deceiving lies was that of Satan. Man did know right from wrong after eating the fruit, but not true right and wrong. Just a form of it, and since then man has been considering something right that is actually wrong. There is no man who is good.
Believing is not 'doing' unless you think its something you do. Believing is simply believing. When you turn it into an event, then you turn it into something you do. Otherwise, its just simple belief.
That is what Paul told the Jailer. Paul did not say, "this is what you must do" - he said the same thing I would say to anyone, "believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".
Its a truthful statement. You will be saved through faith. You just simply believe in Christ - trust God - to save you. Its not something you do, its something you are. True faith is life in a believer.
Yes, what you said is muster.
Nathan
Member
Thief on the cross. Which came first, his belief or Christs salvation?
Nathan
Member
Just to add(I only had a min before), I do recognize that Calvin had some things correct. I think he just took it too far.
Christ has made the way of salvation for all mankind. There are only two camps, those who believe and those who don't. You'll never find a third choice given.
When we view salvation as a event then we try to put a time stamp on it. When we see it as a life, we understand the eternal nature of it.
Paul was serious when he told the Jailer that he must believe if the Jailer wanted salvation. The Jailer obviously thought he had to do something, Paul simply told him he just should believe.
Faith is a result of Him working in us, not what happens before.
People sin because they are sinners, not the other way around. Same is true with faith.
John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?"
68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."
71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.
The ones who turned away had not been yet given the ability to truly believe. That is why Jesus said what He did. When someone thinks that it was their ability to believe that Christ is the Messiah, they are doing nothing more than trusting in their own belief.
Some try to deny this in themselves. For the others who hear, all God desires is repentance, for them to turn to Christ - to believe in Him because God has chosen them.
Are you aware of the context for that verse? iow, the phrase "as it is written" is significant.
Rom 3:9-11
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
Then how should one understand Rom 2:14,15?
I don't understand why there is such pushback on the fact that believing (thinking) is doing something. But the point is that believing is NOT meritorious. It doesn't earn anything.
Who has "turned it into an event", whatever that may mean? Is every thought an event? Not to me.
To think, or to believe, is an action. Thinking is an action. But it's not a work.
That is ABSOLUTELY implied.
Right. That is what they MUST DO to be saved.
Believing always comes first. But since it seems your view is the opposite, what verse leads one to that idea?
From Eph 2:8 and Acts 16:31, it is clear to me that one believes and then is saved.
But I'm interested in what verse or verses has led to your idea.
Agreed.
Right. That's what he MUST DO to be saved. Very clear.
Please explain how "faith" is being used; as a verb or a noun. Thanks.
I find nothing in the Bible that says some people are given the ability and others aren't. I do find that Christ died for everyone. As such, it seems a total waste if God chose to not give this so-called ability to believe to some for whom Christ died. I don't see the purpose in that.
I don't find any such idea coming from Jesus.
Since God created mankind with an intellect, everyone has the ability to accept or reject Christ. And they are held accountable for their decision. So it seems your ideas don't align with Scripture.
Your view is nothing less than the Calvinistic view of "election to salvation"; that God chooses some to believe, while passing over others.
Again, where is that taught in Scripture?
Nathan
Member
The very best way of understanding the order is to look at the Exodus story. God saved them out of the land, and because He saved them out of the land, they believed. He did not tell them "Now, you must believe before I will save you....."
Secondly, it is impossible - utterly no way - for a spiritually dead person to believe until that person has been given the ability - and that ability can only come through new life.
Mat 16:17
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Jesus said this because He knew it was impossible for Peter to have been able to believe this.
Nathan
Member
Christ had not died, so the Spirit had not yet been poured out on all mankind. That is why they were not able to believe.
Jhn 7:37-39
On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
I do not hold to the Calvinist beliefs. I hold to the truth that man is completely and totally unable to do anything to earn salvation - and that includes being able to 'believe' apart from the Spirit of God giving them the ability.
Jhn 3:27
John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.
Jhn 6:63-65
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Based on the statement above, do you think it is possible for someone to come to believe in Christ unless the Father gives him the ability?
Kidron
Member
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"Faith cometh by HEARING" something, = while the Holy Spirit convicts.
This means that a person can know the truth, but refuse to accept the truth.
These are the Hebrews in the book of Hebrews, who "were once enlightened"...and "if we sin willfully, there remaineth no more sacrifice".
Its THOSE people.
People who are convicted, and KNOW, but refuse to take the next step......as they are ENLIGHTENED by the Holy Spirit, but "SIN WILLFULLY" = by Refusing the rest of the WAY.
Jesus said of these Hebrews and all like them...."If you believe NOT that i am the Messiah, you will die in your sins".
And John 3:36 explains it as well.
They were already believers. That's why they followed the Lord out of Egypt.
This is how Paul described it in 1 Cor 10:
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
This is another assumption from Calvinists about regeneration preceding faith, yet without any evidence.
No. He was simply acknowledging that all revelation comes from God. Which humans either accept (believe) or reject. Freely.
This is what the Bible says about the order of believing and regeneration in Eph 2:
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
So, we have been 'made alive with Christ'. Then Paul equated being "made alive" with "by grace you have been saved". I see this as a clarification of what being "made alive" means. iow, those who have been made alive are saved.
Then, he wrote this:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Here, we see that we "have been saved, through faith". The faith must be present in to be saved through it.
So, from v.5 and v.8 we know that faith precedes regeneration.
Hm. How would one explain what Paul wrote in Rom 4:
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
The phrase "will flow rivers of living water" refers to the Holy Spirit, by the very next phrase: "now this He said about the Spirit".
The verses do not even remotely suggest that no one can believe until the Spirit is 'poured out'. Which actually refers to the future promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit, which wasn't available to OT saints. Yet Abraham believed in spite of that.
That happens to be point #1 in TULIP. Their view of total depravity is that man cannot believe unless he has first been regeneration.
Yet, there isn't any Scriptures that say that.
I believe that since Christ died for everyone, that everyone is able to believe the gospel promise of eternal life. And I don't believe these verses even suggest that God chooses who will believe.
It is John 6:45 that explains who comes to Jesus; though everyone has been taught by God, only those who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Him.
"It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."