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Salvation by faith alone/only?

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Frodo

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Being a former minister in the Church of Christ, I taught vehemently that salvation was dependent upon obedience just as much as faith, and faith was not enough, by itself, to bring about salvation. The bible seems to teach both views, that salvation is by faith alone and that it is not. This was one of the big factors in my deconversion, and I wonder what others have to say about the subject...
 
Being a former minister in the Church of Christ, I taught vehemently that salvation was dependent upon obedience just as much as faith, and faith was not enough, by itself, to bring about salvation. The bible seems to teach both views, that salvation is by faith alone and that it is not. This was one of the big factors in my deconversion, and I wonder what others have to say about the subject...

Hello Frodo,
I have been gone for a while.

If you raise the question you already raised, you going to hear a lot of philosophy and wrangling. You will have opinions from every sort of faith, pseudo faith, or non-faith in the world here. I hope you have the discernment to sort out what you are going to hear. What are you looking for? Is there a specific biblical text you want to discuss?
 
The only time the words "faith only" are found in the scripture is in Jas.2:24 and it reads: "not by faith only."
 
I often think that we confuse what we read in this regard. For example, we read a statement from scripture something like this - If you love me you will follow my commandments - and we hear it in reverse and so what we hear is that if we love Jesus, we will prove it by following His commandments. I wonder though if we've been misleading ourselves and the right way to hear this phrase is exactly as it is written. If we love Jesus, we will follow his commandments. It's not an order but an explanation of how our love will be manifest. If we truly love Jesus in our heart, we will by nature follow His commandments because that's the result of loving Him.

It's hard to explain but maybe another analogy will clear it up. Suppose I say, "If it is raining you will get wet." Does that mean that if it is raining I will make myself get wet or does it mean that I will get wet simply because it is raining and getting wet is what happens when it is raining?
 
With all my heart I believe if I really love Jesus I will keep His commandments. This does not minimize the truth that it is an "order" as well as an act of obedient love. As with Jesus and His church so it is witih this subject: they cannot be separated. We can't have one without the other.
 
If we love Jesus, we will follow his commandments. It's not an order but an explanation of how our love will be manifest. If we truly love Jesus in our heart, we will by nature follow His commandments because that's the result of loving Him.

Bingo.

If I love my wife, I will follow her desire. It's not an order but an explanation of how my love will be manifest. If I truly love my wife in my heart, I will by nature follow what pleases her because that's the result of loving her.

Maybe there are some men or women that declare, "If you love me then do this and do that to prove it." But I hardly think that sort of relationship is going to last very long. That just doesn't seem like a good method to nurture a loving relationship. Quite frankly it would turn me off.
 
Wonder what our eternity would be if we DIDN'T do what He asked us to do? Seems that at times we spend a lot of time trying to figure ways of getting around what He asks. What a waste of time! Why not do the best I can with what I have to do what He asks, and enjoy it?
 
Wonder what our eternity would be if we DIDN'T do what He asked us to do? Seems that at times we spend a lot of time trying to figure ways of getting around what He asks. What a waste of time! Why not do the best I can with what I have to do what He asks, and enjoy it?

Yep, the flesh as in a constant battle against the spirit.

We aren't faithful but He is and it's that we rely on.

When we begin to turn our eyes away from Him toward ourselves we are looking squarely at unfaithfulness. That is the seed of doubt. That doubt can lead to panic of sorts to do more. But we are still unfaithful even in the increased efforts which generates more doubt.

Satan loves it though. He whispers in your ear, "You are not worthy my friend. See here, you failed in your commission, you failed to do your master's commandments. How can anyone love a failure. He asks too much of you."
 
The texts of scripture that really seem contradictory to me are Romans 4 and James 2. James says faith without works is dead, while Paul says faith without works saves...I actually had a public debate affirming that salvation is dependant upon works (not the law, but works of obedience). Looking back, I feel that I bested my opponent, but only by being more articulate and witty. After the debate, I realized that I could honestly see why my opponent believed in salvation by faith alone, because in certain passages, that seems to be the doctrine taught.
 
WIP said:
It's hard to explain but maybe another analogy will clear it up. Suppose I say, "If it is raining you will get wet." Does that mean that if it is raining I will make myself get wet or does it mean that I will get wet simply because it is raining and getting wet is what happens when it is raining?

I really like this illustration. What a simple way to clarify the statement. :thumbsup

Frodo said:
Being a former minister in the Church of Christ, I taught vehemently that salvation was dependent upon obedience just as much as faith, and faith was not enough, by itself, to bring about salvation. The bible seems to teach both views, that salvation is by faith alone and that it is not. This was one of the big factors in my deconversion, and I wonder what others have to say about the subject...

Not knocking your former ministry, Frodo, nor the Church of Christ...but when Christians "vehemently" hold to one view when the Bible shows various facets of the issue, it does indeed cause problems...problems as serious as "shipwreck of faith".

It's not just the Church of Christ and needing obedience as much as faith...Calvinists and Limited Atonement would also be another idea that has "vehement" champions...when the Scriptures provide ample evidence that there's more to atonement than just the elect...(example due to another post this morning).

There's the truth "Don't shout when the Bible whispers..." Well, there should also be the truth of "If the Scriptures gives us a diamond, don't preach a plane."

Salvation is by far one of the most complex truths in the Scriptures...not the Gospel, the Gospel is quite simple...Jesus paid our price of sin on the cross so that we might be saved...nothing complex about that.

But, the totality of teaching on salvation...what does it mean He paid our price...what does it mean that we might be saved...are saved...will be saved...it can be a life's study to try to sort it all out.

There cannot be salvation without faith...but what faith produces in our lives and what the impact is if there is no "fruit" of faith...these are just as essential to salvation as faith itself.

I'm sorry your faith was shipwrecked over the issue. I've seen the shipwreck of faith in others when a limited view of something was held to tightly as absolute truth and then it became clear that there was more to the story....the issue of "by His stripes we are healed" come to my mind...wow, what a lot of damage that a limited view vehemently held that one has done.
 
James tells us that faith without works is dead. This does not mean that we have to do works or our faith will die.....but that faith will bring about those works.....and if it doesn't...check the pulse, it may not be alive

People often try to juxtoppose James and Ephesians but in fact they are in agreement

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Saved by faith alone...yes But faith entails a lot! Faith is not a nodding assent to God, but it is the complete sellout of self to God
 
Being a former minister in the Church of Christ, I taught vehemently that salvation was dependent upon obedience just as much as faith, and faith was not enough, by itself, to bring about salvation. The bible seems to teach both views, that salvation is by faith alone and that it is not. This was one of the big factors in my deconversion, and I wonder what others have to say about the subject...

  • Grace of God brings Salvation (Tit 2:11-15)
  • Grace is by Faith and not works (Eph 2:8-9, 2Ti 1:9)
  • Faith in Jesus Christ = Righteousness + Self Control + Fear of the coming Judgement (Act 24:24-25)
  • Faith without Works is dead (Jas 2:17-26)

In the above statements:
'Grace is by Faith and not works' seems to contradict 'Faith without Works is dead'. Infact they are not.

If you read carefully, you will notice the following: Grace is not by works. Even a pagan can do good charitable works. Grace is by faith in Christ. However this faith must be with works.

.. those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works .. Titus 3:8.
 
The texts of scripture that really seem contradictory to me are Romans 4 and James 2. James says faith without works is dead, while Paul says faith without works saves...I actually had a public debate affirming that salvation is dependant upon works (not the law, but works of obedience). Looking back, I feel that I bested my opponent, but only by being more articulate and witty. After the debate, I realized that I could honestly see why my opponent believed in salvation by faith alone, because in certain passages, that seems to be the doctrine taught.

Romans and James are talking about two different "salvations". This causes much of the problems when people of today talk about salvation. One means "going to heaven in the future", the other guy means "freed from sin in the past".

In addition, it is important to note that even in Romans, Paul is using "works" to mean something different than most mean it. It is not simply "doing things" that equates to "works" for Paul. The telling sign is "works of the Law" when he contrasts this to a means to salvation as opposed to faith.

Did a Gentile have to become Jewish (and perform works of the Law) to be part of the People of God? That was the question Paul was addressing, not whether we didn't have to do anything...!!!

What the Bible very clearly states, over and over, though, is that all men will be judged based upon what they did. If we did good in Christ, we are judged accordingly. If we rejected that, we are deemed as suitable for eternal separation from God.

Regards
 
vehement - zealous; ardent; impassioned: a vehement defense; vehement enthusiasm. strongly emotional; intense or passionate: vehement desire.
marked by great energy or exertion; strenuous:

Handy, a Christian who does not have this attitude isn't in keeping with the saints of the NT. Paul, Peter, even Jesus were extreemly zealous and passionate.

It wasnt this issue that made my 'faith' go 'shipwreck'...it was the contradictory nature of the scriptures, along with science, textual criticism, logic...etc. But lets not focus on me, lets deal with the issue at hand.
 
If salvation is by faith and not works (Eph 2:8-9), then there indeed is a contradiction with James 2.

Which is it: Faith with works, or faith whithout works? It can't be both...

Two different salvations francisdesales???? Where did you come up with that, and what proof do you offer to support your veiw?
 
I often think that we confuse what we read in this regard. For example, we read a statement from scripture something like this - If you love me you will follow my commandments - and we hear it in reverse and so what we hear is that if we love Jesus, we will prove it by following His commandments. I wonder though if we've been misleading ourselves and the right way to hear this phrase is exactly as it is written. If we love Jesus, we will follow his commandments. It's not an order but an explanation of how our love will be manifest. If we truly love Jesus in our heart, we will by nature follow His commandments because that's the result of loving Him.

It's hard to explain but maybe another analogy will clear it up. Suppose I say, "If it is raining you will get wet." Does that mean that if it is raining I will make myself get wet or does it mean that I will get wet simply because it is raining and getting wet is what happens when it is raining?
Well said. Now how many here will completly disregard the integrity of what you have clearly laid out by interpreting it as advocating disobedience? This discussion is always lost in semantics.
 
If salvation is by faith and not works (Eph 2:8-9), then there indeed is a contradiction with James 2.

Which is it: Faith with works, or faith whithout works? It can't be both...

Two different salvations francisdesales???? Where did you come up with that, and what proof do you offer to support your veiw?

On the first, recall that "works" in Ephesians is in reference to "works of the Law", what made Jews distinct from other people. Obedience to the Law was the JEWS response to the Covenant. Part of being the "People of God" was obedience to the covenant. Now, as a result of Christ, that dividing wall between the Jew and the Gentile has been broken down. To be part of the People of God, one doesn't have to be an ethnic Jew, nor to become a prostelyte and a convert to Judaism, binding oneself to the Mosaic Law. NOW, salvation is through faith (and Paul argues elsewhere it was always so...), rather than works of the Law.

Thus, when reading Ephesians, we must keep that context in mind - a writing to the Gentiles to reassure them contra Judaizers trying to get them to circumcise the flesh. In Eph 2:10, note, we are made to do good works in Christ, so good works are certainly not the subject of Eph 2:8-9. Clearly, "works" there is vs "works of the law", since who would deny that a person does not have to "work", meaning repent, convert and believe - all actions done by people...

As to the second comment, the Bible speaks of salvation as a past event and as a future event:

Future (twice here)

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Romans 5:9-10

Past

He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time 2 Tim 1:9

So it is easy to see that one person, thinking about eternal life in heaven, can say "hey, we aren't saved yet" and the other guy saying "oh yes, we have, when I proclaimed Jesus as my savior, I was saved..." and speak past each other. Happens here all the time.

Regards
 
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