Salvation without Baptism ?

[twinc]

not possible for the thief on the cross some say - but is it easier to say 'thy sins are forgiven thee' than to say 'this day shalt thou be with me in paradise' - twinc

 

[Eugene]

not possible for the thief on the cross some say - but is it easier to say 'thy sins are forgiven thee' than to say 'this day shalt thou be with me in paradise' - twinc

Amen.

 

[Jim Parker]

not possible for the thief on the cross some say - but is it easier to say 'thy sins are forgiven thee' than to say 'this day shalt thou be with me in paradise' - twinc

Amen,

 

[Cygnus]

If salvation required water baptism then the many verses such as John 3:16 would include water baptism.

 

[Jim Parker]

If salvation required water baptism then the many verses such as John 3:16 would include water baptism.

The passage does include water baptism.
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
When you take a snipp[et of a conversation out of its context you are very prone to come to a wrong conclusion.

 

[Cygnus]

The passage does include water baptism.
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
When you take a snipp[et of a conversation out of its context you are very prone to come to a wrong conclusion.

But your snipet is OK..and you presented the correct interpretation about spirit and water?

Water is synonym with Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5 tells us...he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Others interpret the waters as the water from a mothers womb, in which I don't agree with.

To consider it to be water baptism when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus water baptism would have been meaningless because water baptism wasn't instituted yet. Some relate it to John baptism but nowhere does Jesus say John baptism is a requirement.

Wht do you think water baptism is the correct interpretation?

 

[Jim Parker]

But your snipet is OK..and you presented the correct interpretation about spirit and water?

You can go read the entire chapter, or Gospel, at your leisure.

Water is synonym with Holy Spirit.

So, do you mean that Jesus was saying "unless one is born of the Spirit and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."?

Titus 3:5 tells us...he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Yes.
Washing of regeneration in the water of baptism corresponds to Paul's teaching on baptism in Romans 6 and the words, "and renewal of the Holy Spirit" indicate that the renewal is a separate act.
Your snippet verifies mine.
Thank you very much.

To consider it to be water baptism when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus water baptism would have been meaningless because water baptism wasn't instituted yet.

At that point, Jesus had already been baptized by his cousin John.
Baptism was already a common Jewish practice.
And, many things which Jesus said were not understood until after His death, resurrection, ascension, and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
So you point is moot.

Wht do you think water baptism is the correct interpretation?

(1) Because it fits perfectly with Paul's teaching on baptism.
Rom 6:3-7
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

(2) Because it is what the early church fathers were taught by the apostles.
A. The Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve) The Didache is a compellation of teachings for the Church dating from as early as the late 1st century or as late as from the very early 2nd century.
It was used as instruction for new believers coming into the Church.
It was considered to be authoritative teaching in the early church and was almost included in the canon of the New Testament.

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism.
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

B. Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD Justin was the first apologist of the Church)
From: The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”

And for this [rite of baptism] we have learned from the apostles … in order that we … may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; … (he) is also washed in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, who through the prophets foretold everything about Jesus.


iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

But your snipet is OK..and you presented the correct interpretation about spirit and water?

Water is synonym with Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5 tells us...he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Others interpret the waters as the water from a mothers womb, in which I don't agree with.

To consider it to be water baptism when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus water baptism would have been meaningless because water baptism wasn't instituted yet. Some relate it to John baptism but nowhere does Jesus say John baptism is a requirement.

Wht do you think water baptism is the correct interpretation?

I think your on the right set of tracks.

In order to think Jesus was speaking of physical 'water', would mean He was combining something that has no power, with something that has absolute power.

I believe that the water Jesus speaks of is the word of God. In other words, a person has to be born of His teaching and His Spirit.

Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church,
30 because we are members of his body.
31 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

Some people don't understand this 'mystery'. Just as nicodemus was unknown to it, and Christ gave a glimps into it.

Jesus spoke of both the Spirit of God, and the word of God. A man cannot enter the kingdom(Christ) unless one is born from them. The word of God is revealed, and taught, to us by the Spirit of God.

It's kinda silly to think Jesus was referring to something so physical and earthly, combining it with something Holy and eternal. It's wise to understand both water and the spirit Jesus spoke of would be of the same nature.

 

[Jim Parker]

I believe that the water Jesus speaks of is the word of God.

Examples of Baptism in Water being normative in the book of Acts:
A. Phillip on the road to Gaza: Acts 8:36-38 And as they went along the road they came
to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being
baptized?"
And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he replied, "I
believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he commanded the chariot to stop,
and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him

B. Peter at the house of Cornelius Acts 10: 47-48 "Can any one forbid water
for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And
he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

C. Jesus in the Jordan River Mark 1:9-10 It came to pass in those days that Jesus
came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And
immediately coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit
descending upon Him like a dove.

What is your issue with the Biblical teaching of water baptism?

 

[Nathan]

Examples of Baptism in Water being normative in the book of Acts:
A. Phillip on the road to Gaza: Acts 8:36-38 And as they went along the road they came
to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being
baptized?"
And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he replied, "I
believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he commanded the chariot to stop,
and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him

B. Peter at the house of Cornelius Acts 10: 47-48 "Can any one forbid water
for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And
he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

C. Jesus in the Jordan River Mark 1:9-10 It came to pass in those days that Jesus
came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And
immediately coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit
descending upon Him like a dove.

What is your issue with the Biblical teaching of water baptism?

I have no issue with it, and I explain this every time you say I do.

Water is definitely a medium in which baptism can take place.

I simply believe we should understand baptism is not a word that always refers to physical water. And I for sure believe we would be wise to only attribute it to physical water when the text says so. Otherwise we miss truth that has been given to us.

 

[Jim Parker]

Water is definitely a medium in which baptism can take place.

WRONG

Water is the medium in which baptism DOES take place.

You always try to back off from water baptism or try to redefine it as something other than what scripture says it is.

So, you may say you have no issue with water baptism but your responses consistently indicate otherwise.

You never actually agree; you always have some qualification.

And I'm tired of your game.

 

[Nathan]

WRONG

Water is the medium in which baptism DOES take place.

You always try to back off from water baptism or try to redefine it as something other than what scripture says it is.

So, you may say you have no issue with water baptism but your responses consistently indicate otherwise.

You never actually agree; you always have some qualification.

And I'm tired of your game.

No game. Truth in reality. The word baptism does not mean immersion in water. It means immersion.

My posts reflect this truth. Your posts reflect your false beliefs about my posts. I have no issue with water baptism, yet you keep on falsly stating I do.

 

[Cygnus]

You can go read the entire chapter, or Gospel, at your leisure.

So, do you mean that Jesus was saying "unless one is born of the Spirit and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."?

Yes.
Washing of regeneration in the water of baptism corresponds to Paul's teaching on baptism in Romans 6 and the words, "and renewal of the Holy Spirit" indicate that the renewal is a separate act.
Your snippet verifies mine.
Thank you very much.

At that point, Jesus had already been baptized by his cousin John.
Baptism was already a common Jewish practice.
And, many things which Jesus said were not understood until after His death, resurrection, ascension, and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
So you point is moot.

(1) Because it fits perfectly with Paul's teaching on baptism.
Rom 6:3-7
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

(2) Because it is what the early church fathers were taught by the apostles.
A. The Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve) The Didache is a compellation of teachings for the Church dating from as early as the late 1st century or as late as from the very early 2nd century.
It was used as instruction for new believers coming into the Church.
It was considered to be authoritative teaching in the early church and was almost included in the canon of the New Testament.

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism.
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

B. Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD Justin was the first apologist of the Church)
From: The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”

And for this [rite of baptism] we have learned from the apostles … in order that we … may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; … (he) is also washed in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, who through the prophets foretold everything about Jesus.


iakov the fool

Baptism has several meanings...baptism by fire..water..Holy Spirit...but guys lke you want them all to be water.

You see, if baptism by water was a necessary thing for salvation the bible would make it very clear that it is a requirement. But there are many verses such as John 3:16 that don't even mention baptism. You contradict scripture when you make water baptism a requirement.

 

[Cygnus]

Examples of Baptism in Water being normative in the book of Acts:
A. Phillip on the road to Gaza: Acts 8:36-38 And as they went along the road they came
to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being
baptized?"
And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he replied, "I
believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he commanded the chariot to stop,
and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him

B. Peter at the house of Cornelius Acts 10: 47-48 "Can any one forbid water
for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And
he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

C. Jesus in the Jordan River Mark 1:9-10 It came to pass in those days that Jesus
came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And
immediately coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit
descending upon Him like a dove.

What is your issue with the Biblical teaching of water baptism?

Jim, no one is saying baptism is wrong. You do understand that???

 

[th1b.taylor]

The passage does include water baptism.
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
When you take a snipp[et of a conversation out of its context you are very prone to come to a wrong conclusion.

Jim,Many of us have married and have loved our wives and produced children. In doing so we have seen her water break, announcing the birth, or arrival, of a new person into this world, born of the water. I was born of the Spirit 25 days before my 45th birthday. I wasn't baptized for two more weeks but I was indwelt of or with the Holy Spirit. I was, literally, filled with the Spirit.

 

[LovethroughDove]

WRONG

Water is the medium in which baptism DOES take place.

You always try to back off from water baptism or try to redefine it as something other than what scripture says it is.

So, you may say you have no issue with water baptism but your responses consistently indicate otherwise.

You never actually agree; you always have some qualification.

And I'm tired of your game.

I love how the OP has the thief on the cross as a reference. There was no literal water and yet Jesus said today he will be with him in paradise. Funny how that works.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Luke 3:16 John answered them all "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

 

[Cygnus]

B. Peter at the house of Cornelius Acts 10: 47-48 "Can any one forbid water
for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And
he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

I'm trying to figure out why Jim Parker chose to use this verse. If you notice they received the Holy Spirit....then were baptized.

...saved, then baptized.

 

[Jim Parker]

No game. Truth in reality. The word baptism does not mean immersion in water. It means immersion.

My posts reflect this truth. Your posts reflect your false beliefs about my posts. I have no issue with water baptism, yet you keep on falsly stating I do.

OK, you have no issue with water baptism and baptism doesn't mean immersion in water.
And you don't think that double-talk.
Got it.

 

[Jim Parker]

Baptism has several meanings...baptism by fire..water..Holy Spirit...but guys lke you want them all to be water.

Baptism in water and in the Holy Spirit fulfill the requirements set forth by Jesus at John 3:5.