Salvation without Baptism ?

[Cygnus]

The verse being John 3:5 "...unless you are born (again) of water and of Spirit..."
Paul's explanation of of what baptism is about at Ro 6:2-7, in which believer is united with Christ's death and resurrection to new life in baptism, is being "born again of water" experiencing death and rebirth to new life in the waters of baptism.

Justin Martyr used the words "born again" with reference to baptism

Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD Justin was the first apologist of the Church)
From: The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”

And for this [rite of baptism] we have learned from the apostles … in order that we … may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; … (he) is also washed in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, who through the prophets foretold everything about Jesus.

The fact that reports of salvation did not include mention of baptism is an argument from silence. The only thing they prove is that there was no mention of baptism. Since they say nothing about baptism, they say nothing about whether it was or was not done.

The key is still Jesus' command at Mat 28 to make disciples and to baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The historical documents of the Didache and Justin Martyr verify that to be exactly what was done.

iakov the fool

Let me express it to you once again....if water baptism was a requirement for salvation all the verses that tell us how to confess Christ as Lord, believe in Him..would contain water baptism. The inspired authors would not have left out water baptism.

Your theology tells us John 3:16 isn't enough.

 

[Jim Parker]

if water baptism was a requirement for salvation all the verses that tell us how to confess Christ as Lord, believe in Him..would contain water baptism. The inspired authors would not have left out water baptism.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Again: That is an argument from silence.
You cannot base any doctrine on what anyone did NOT say.
You base it on what someone (like Jesus, for example) DID say.
And Jesus said to baptize ALL disciples.
And that is what the historical documents of the Church reflect: baptism as a standard procedure.

SO: 2 ideas
(1) If it is not possible to get baptized before I die, do I get sent to hell? - Of course not.
That is a situation in which I was prevented from obeying Jesus' command.
(2) If I refuse to get baptized, do I get sent to hell? - There is a good chance that such a refusal would be an indication of an underlying resistance to submit to the Lordship of Jesus who asked, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and don't do what I say?" (Luk 6:46)
That would be a situation in which I refuse to obey Jesus' command even though there is nothing preventing me from doing so other than my self-will.

Refusal to obey Jesus is evidence (IMO) that the alleged believer has not committed his life to Christ and wants to hold on to some level of control in which he depends on he own wisdom rather than the teaching of Scripture.
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." (Pro 14:12; 16:25)

So, no, Baptism is not an absolute necessity for salvation.

And Jesus did say:
Jhn 14:15 If you love me, keep my commands.
Jhn 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
Jhn 14:23-24 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Jesus commanded that all disciples be baptized. (Mat 28:18)

I do not understand why anyone who calls himself a Christian could possibly have a problem complying with that command. It just doesn't make any sense.

that's all


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Cygnus]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Again: That is an argument from silence.
You cannot base any doctrine on what anyone did NOT say.
You base it on what someone (like Jesus, for example) DID say.
And Jesus said to baptize ALL disciples.
And that is what the historical documents of the Church reflect: baptism as a standard procedure.

SO: 2 ideas
(1) If it is not possible to get baptized before I die, do I get sent to hell? - Of course not.
That is a situation in which I was prevented from obeying Jesus' command.
(2) If I refuse to get baptized, do I get sent to hell? - There is a good chance that such a refusal would be an indication of an underlying resistance to submit to the Lordship of Jesus who asked, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and don't do what I say?" (Luk 6:46)
That would be a situation in which I refuse to obey Jesus' command even though there is nothing preventing me from doing so other than my self-will.

Refusal to obey Jesus is evidence (IMO) that the alleged believer has not committed his life to Christ and wants to hold on to some level of control in which he depends on he own wisdom rather than the teaching of Scripture.
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." (Pro 14:12; 16:25)

So, no, Baptism is not an absolute necessity for salvation.

And Jesus did say:
Jhn 14:15 If you love me, keep my commands.
Jhn 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
Jhn 14:23-24 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Jesus commanded that all disciples be baptized. (Mat 28:18)

I do not understand why anyone who calls himself a Christian could possibly have a problem complying with that command. It just doesn't make any sense.

that's all


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Jim. let me repeat.....if water baptism was a requirement for salvation all the verses that tell us how to confess Christ as Lord, believe in Him..would contain water baptism. The inspired authors would not have left out water baptism.

 

[Mike]

Jim. let me repeat.....if water baptism was a requirement for salvation all the verses that tell us how to confess Christ as Lord, believe in Him..would contain water baptism. The inspired authors would not have left out water baptism.

Jim gave you what I thought was an excellent response, top to bottom of his post, and you did not return volley. You may not agree with his comment where he said

Again: That is an argument from silence.
You cannot base any doctrine on what anyone did NOT say.
You base it on what someone (like Jesus, for example) DID say.

but he did respond to this post that you are repeating. I'm just responding as a member to say he responded well to this already. It doesn't make sense to me when you don't acknowledge anything he said and return with the same response.

 

[Cygnus]

Jim gave you what I thought was an excellent response, top to bottom of his post, and you did not return volley. You may not agree with his comment where he said

but he did respond to this post that you are repeating. I'm just responding as a member to say he responded well to this already. It doesn't make sense to me when you don't acknowledge anything he said and return with the same response.

Jim presented a poor argument.
The bible in SEVERAL places....that's SEVERAL places explains salvation without water baptism. No mention of water at all. NONE.
Returning the same response was what Jim needed again because his reply was extremely inadequate.
What the lack of water baptism from being present in those verses CLEARLY tells me Jim Parker is mistranslating those verses.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (NO WATER BAPTISM)
John 6:40 For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."(NO WATER BAPTISM)
John 3;36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."Romans 10:3 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."(NO WATER BAPTISM)
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’(NO WATER BAPTISM)

The lack of water baptism speaks volumes. Jim Parker has to explain why water baptism isn't present in such an important verse. To simply calim ..."Again: That is an argument from silence.
You cannot base any doctrine on what anyone did NOT say." Doesn't apply in this instance. Either you can call on the name of the Lord and be saved...or you can't and must slip in water baptism. As for me, I'll trust what the bible says.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim. let me repeat.....if water baptism was a requirement for salvation all the verses that tell us how to confess Christ as Lord, believe in Him..would contain water baptism. The inspired authors would not have left out water baptism.

There is no scriptural, logical, or literary basis for that conclusion.

 

[Jim Parker]

The lack of water baptism speaks volumes.

A lack of mentioning something speaks absolutely nothing.
There is absolutely no necessity to mention water baptism every time someone used the word "saved" or "believe."

You cannot base any doctrine on what anyone did NOT say." Doesn't apply in this instance.

It applies in EVERY instance.

Jesus is your Lord, right? --- YES!
Did He tell you to get baptized? --- YES!
What's your problem?

 

[th1b.taylor]

A lack of mentioning something speaks absolutely nothing.
There is absolutely no necessity to mention water baptism every time someone used the word "saved" or "believe."

It applies in EVERY instance.

Jesus is your Lord, right? --- YES!
Did He tell you to get baptized? --- YES!
What's your problem?

Jim.
i was saved almost a week before the day I walked into the Church seeking baptism. I can and do testify to the indwelling of the Holy spirit opening the
Word of God to me. I had tried for years to make head or tails out of the Bible but all of it was gibberish until the nighI t the Holy Spirit moved into my life. I returned home, content, knowing what had happened and as I let my KJV fall open it opened to Isa. 53 and though everything but John 3 made no sense to me, I could see Jesus in that chapter, for the first time. I wasn't baptized until later but I was saved.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim.
i was saved almost a week before the day I walked into the Church seeking baptism. I can and do testify to the indwelling of the Holy spirit opening the
Word of God to me. I had tried for years to make head or tails out of the Bible but all of it was gibberish until the nighI t the Holy Spirit moved into my life. I returned home, content, knowing what had happened and as I let my KJV fall open it opened to Isa. 53 and though everything but John 3 made no sense to me, I could see Jesus in that chapter, for the first time. I wasn't baptized until later but I was saved.

Yes you were saved at that moment before you were baptized.
And you obeyed Jesus command to be baptized.
If you had refused to do so, then we'd have a different story.

iakov the fool

 

[reba]

Yes you were saved at that moment before you were baptized.
And you obeyed Jesus command to be baptized.
If you had refused to do so, then we'd have a different story.

iakov the fool

so a guy is jail lets say in the middle east he is saved in a moment but alas there is no water for baptism... so when they behead him the next morning he is in hell ?

 

[Jim Parker]

so a guy is jail lets say in the middle east he is saved in a moment but alas there is no water for baptism... so when they behead him the next morning he is in hell ?

If it is not possible for him to be baptized then why would a just and merciful and loving God send him to hell?
Answer: NO.

 

[reba]

Now you say one does not have to follow the Commands of Jesus ? You must believe His commands are arbitrary ..
Personally i believe a Christian should be baptized

 

[Jim Parker]

Now you say one does not have to follow the Commands of Jesus ?

I did NOT say that.
The scenario you presented made being baptized impossible through no fault of the new believer.
That is NOT the same as saying it is not necessary.
Jesus commanded that we be baptized. Unless it is impossible, we need to obey Jesus' command.

You must believe His commands are arbitrary ..

Not at all. I believe that God will not punish anyone for what is not their fault.
However, if there is nothing to prevent a person from getting baptized and he refuses to do so then he is in a state of rebellion against Jesus. I do not believe such a person is saved. (He may be, but I don't think so.)

Personally i believe a Christian should be baptized

Jesus commanded it. (Mat 28:18-20)
Peter affirmed it's necessity. (Acts 2:38)
Paul explained it's purpose. (Ro 6:2-7; Col 2:11-14; 3:3)
So you believe what scripture teaches.

 

[Nathan]

Interesting. Now I see why Matthew 28 is such a heated point.

Without it, then there is no "command" of Jesus to water baptize.

What I find is sometimes overlooked, is that Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize - not to tell others to be baptized.

Some might say that's just semantics. I think there is a reason.

Matthew 23
8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
11 The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

 

[Cygnus]

There is no scriptural, logical, or literary basis for that conclusion.

Ypur claim is that if someone picked up the book of John and opened to John 3:16..read it and believed it...they're not saved?

If someone calls on the name of Jesus to save them....according to your theology their not saved...until their baptized?

Do you honestly hear what you're proposing?
So, yes, there is a scriptural, logical, and literary basis for that conclusion.

 

[Cygnus]

A lack of mentioning something speaks absolutely nothing.
There is absolutely no necessity to mention water baptism every time someone used the word "saved" or "believe."

It applies in EVERY instance.

Jesus is your Lord, right? --- YES!
Did He tell you to get baptized? --- YES!
What's your problem?

Yes, he told me to get baptized.....even though I was already saved...I did.
what's my problem? no problem until you made a check list for salvation.

 

[Jim Parker]

What I find is sometimes overlooked, is that Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize - not to tell others to be baptized.

So the disciples were supposed to baptize the people of all nations and after that there should be no more baptisms?
That's absurd.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, he told me to get baptized.....even though I was already saved...I did.
what's my problem? no problem until you made a check list for salvation.

It astounds me how people get all up set when anyone points out the Jesus actually gave commands that we're supposed to obey as best we can. (We all fail and that's why we have confession. (1Jo 1:9)
I wonder if it the the proliferation of the false teaching that good works are not necessary to enter the kingdom of God?

 

[Nathan]

So the disciples were supposed to baptize the people of all nations and after that there should be no more baptisms?
That's absurd.

That would be absurd, but that's not what I was saying.

I said Christ told His disciples to baptize - He did not tell them to put the responsibility of being baptized on the ones being baptized.

In other words, the responsibility of baptizing is on the one doing the baptizing, not the recipient.

That's the way it was written.

"Go into all the world......baptizing them......."

 

[Cygnus]

It astounds me how people get all up set when anyone points out the Jesus actually gave commands that we're supposed to obey as best we can. (We all fail and that's why we have confession. (1Jo 1:9)
I wonder if it the the proliferation of the false teaching that good works are not necessary to enter the kingdom of God?

Why would anyone get upset because of baptism?
The good thing is now that you realize baptism isn't a requirement for salvation...you can calm down.