SALVATION

[glorydaz]

John 6:28,29

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

In any event, there is nothing in this statement from Jesus which denies what is so clearly established by Paul and by Jesus Himself - that ultimate justification will be based on good works.

Is this really your answer to this verse?

How about taking it in context...Wouldn't this have been the perfect opportunity for our Lord to have said work hard so you can come to heaven? He's being asked very specifically, and what does he say? That we should believe and He will raise us up on the last day. Not only that...He will lose none nor cast any away. I guess, according to you, Drew, had Paul been there he would have reminded Jesus not to forget the works part of the deal.

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Drew]

Paul is addressing these...the gentiles claimed good works and the Jews claimed following the law. He's already told them all men sin and railed on both sides for being sinners. He's said they're the same ...whichever method they use there is still sin to be dealt with. Paul has hearers that heard the entire message...not just this one verse. They knew what Paul was saying, just as most hearers do.

You are simply not engaging my argument. I have argued that the "works" in verse 9 are the works of the Law of Moses. If you disagree, you need to engage the actual content of my argument. If you agree that, here in verse 9, Paul is not denying justification by good works, as I have argued, but is rather talking about the Law of Moses, fine. We would agree in that case.

BTW...This verse does not say, as you claim, they "will be given eternal life".

We have been through this before and there is simply is no way to take Romans 2:7 as not asserting that "those who persist in doing good will get eternal life."

No one will agree with you in your assertion that Paul is not establishing that those who "persist in doing good" are promised eternal life here. I challenge any poster to suggest otherwise. The issue with this text has always been whether there will be any people who will get eternal life in this way, not with whether or not eternal life is promised to those who do good.

But I suggest that you stand alone in suggesting that the text does not say that "those who persist in doing good will get eternal life".

 

[Drew]

.....your lieing by saying Paul preaches salvation through works. Shame on you.

Moderators?......

 

[Drew]

All who know the blessed salvation of God by His grace through faith in Christ Jesus work recognize the futility in debating with fools

Moderators?......

 

[Panin]

All who know the blessed salvation of God by His grace through faith in Christ Jesus work recognize the futility in debating with fools for they will never hear or see the truth of God's Word. Works of sinners never brings salvation, and the Word of God does not teach Salvation by works. Only by the work of Jesus Christ can one be saved; and that salvation is gained by believing in Jesus Christ. Good works follow those who are born again, born of God, as it is the new creature who cannot sin who performs these good works. Only those born of God can produce good works. Again, good works follow those who are born again after they are saved.

I agree with you apart from the highlighted part. But that doesn't mean I am agreeing that sin is ever condoned, but it is forgiven when it is confessed.

 

[glorydaz]

I assume that you are not considering lockng this thread because you consider reasonable discussion of this topic to be "out of bounds".

There is nothing reasonable about your belief system, it is not christian, it is a blatant twisting of the scripture and it has no place on a Christian forum.

This is not the way to make your point. I have provided an annoying array of Biblical arguments. Why not actually engage them and we can discuss the various based on their specifically scriptural merits.

Drew, your "Biblical arguments" are not as Biblical as you think they are. They really don't make sense, to me, so it's pretty hard to engage them. You say it says a particular thing, and I'm thinking ...what in the world is he talking about. You read things into a verse that no one can see but you. For some reason, you think everything goes back to Paul speaking of the Torah, even when it's clear he's addressing the entire church at Ephesus. Then suddenly, out of the blue, you take the verse about works as being addressed to those under the law.
Notice he refers to the saints as holy and without blame...does that seem to say we worked our way into holiness to the point we're blameless?

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Drew]

He's being asked very specifically, and what does he say? That we should believe and He will raise us up on the last day.

I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever denied this.

Please, please read my posts carefully. I have been crystal clear about this - believe in Jesus and you will be saved. But - and I despair that you will actually hear this since you have not heard it before - this does not mean ultimate justification is not based on good works, just as Paul and Jesus say.

Why? Well, even though I have said this repeatedly before, the Spirit is given to those who believe and the Spirit guarantees that the good works will be there.

 

[glorydaz]

I've noticed this on other threads, as well.
These works-based faith people do like to judge.

Do you mean like this non-judgemental cutie from a poster whose views you endorse (my underline)?

Others who are saved by God's grace are immature in their walk with Christ and have not learned the truth of God's Word yet;

Are you saying I wasn't speaking the truth?
I realize it isn't always pleasant to hear the truth, but if you've bothered to read a certain poster's comments you'd have to admit my statement (cute as it may be) was perfectly in order.

I wasn't even thinking of you when I said that...it's proved out on other threads I've been on.

 

[Drew]

For some reason, you think everything goes back to Paul speaking of the Torah, even when it's clear he's addressing the entire church at Ephesus.

Are you really reading my posts? Please answer. I will repeat:

No Torah in Ephesians 2?

No Jews in Ephesians 2?

The text suggests otherwise:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, (AS)who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into (AW)one new man, thus establishing peace,

I trust that I need not point out that the "Law of commandments" is a clear reference to the Law of Moses, even if that were not otherwise clear by context.

So please do not deny the obvious gd!!! There is Torah all over the place here!!! It is the Torah which distinguished the Jew from the Genitle and Paul is here talking about how the abolition of Torah functions to bring Jew and Gentile into one body/

There are many things that can be legitimately disagreed over - but to say that Torah is not in view in Ephesians 2 is simply not a view that can be defended.

 

[shad]

You do nothing but judge, Shad. Don't make me go back and quote you, it's too much work.
If we wait a half a second, you'll do it again. :biglaugh

How am I judging???

 

[Drew]

I've noticed this on other threads, as well.
These works-based faith people do like to judge.

Do you mean like this non-judgemental cutie from a poster whose views you endorse (my underline)?

Others who are saved by God's grace are immature in their walk with Christ and have not learned the truth of God's Word yet;

Are you saying I wasn't speaking the truth?
I realize it isn't always pleasant to hear the truth, but if you've bothered to read a certain poster's comments you'd have to admit my statement (cute as it may be) was perfectly in order.

I wasn't even thinking of you when I said that...it's proved out on other threads I've been on.

I know your statement was not directed at me.

And I am not saying that your statement is false. My point was that it was incomplete. And as per two entirely unacceptable posts (Panin calls me liar, and Solo calls me a fool), my point is only strengthened.

 

[shad]

Show me the verse you keep harping on, Shad. I'm thinking it may be the only one you know.

If you're talking, Seek ye first the kingdom of God, you got it wrong.
This "make every effot" just isn't ringing any bells....I want to see the verse.

Here you go which I already showed you but you have been ignoring. that's why I have been repeating.

Luke 13:24
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

.

Glory???? You are ignoring again. You keep ignor when you are stuck.

 

[Drew]

Panin, please answer my question as already asked. Here it is again:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Tell me, Panin, what do you think Paul means by this statement? It certainly appears to sustain the very position for which I have been arguing.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm just shaking my head. How can you possibly not see that Paul is talking to a body of believers...he is not, in any way shape or form, speaking about the Torah. Have you read Eph. 1? Don't you see who he is talking to here? Point out the Torah...point out the Jew...Paul's ministry is to the Gentiles. Are you reading the same Bible I am?

No Torah in Ephesians 2?

No Jews in Ephesians 2?

The text suggests otherwise:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, (AS)who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into (AW)one new man, thus establishing peace,

I trust that I need not point out that the "Law of commandments" is a clear reference to the Law of Moses, even if that were not otherwise clear by context.

Normally, people don't start at the bottom and work their way up.

You totally ignore where the sentence is placed.

Paul goes on to explain how both Jews and Gentiles have brought near by the blood of Christ, but before that he speaks of being saved by grace...the works verse is situated in this context...we are His workmanship....

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

His reference to the wall of partition is followed in it's logical sequence (not going backwards to the works verse, but forward to explain how we are joint heirs. Top to bottom Drew...not bottom to top.

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[Drew]

gd: I see no value in continuing our interaction. We obviously have different ideas about what constitutes a valid argument and proper exegesis. No hard feelings.

 

[glorydaz]

In that case go ahead and tell me how one is saved initially, then explain in detail how one stays saved, IE what works one has to do on a continual daily basis to remain saved?

I have addressed this in detail in many many posts, which you seem to have not read. That's no crime - I have not read all the posts either.

So I will repeat. Paul's argument is this: the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer "conforms" them to the image of the Son - Romans 8 -so that they will indeed manifest the good works that will qualify them for salvation. The Spirit is a gift of pure grace alone, appropriated by faith in the atoning work of Christ alone. If the faith is real, the Spirit is given and its the Spirit's job - not ours - to produce the good works. And since this is the Spirit of God, that goal will most assuredly be achieved.

So the believer indeed has assurance of salvation, even though ultimate salvation is based on good works.

Well, it's the Spirit that will be judged then, isn't it?

We certainly can't be judged on whether the Holy Spirit did His job or not.

 

[shad]

No one is listening to their opponents.

that's why biblical debate is meaningless.

.

 

[glorydaz]

I have repeatedly stated, including in a recent direct answer to you, that it is the Spirit who produces these works. Where have I ever said anything that suggests otherwise? I believe I have been entirely consistent about this.

You have been very confusing from start to finish.
The fruit of the Spirit is evidence of one's salvation.
Our work is to believe in Jesus Christ...really believe, not just claim to believe.

By saying we need works to ultimately be saved, you are misleading, at best.

If you said, instead, the presence of the Holy Spirit working through us is necessary for salvation you wouldn't be questioned as you are now. But I wonder if you really believe that...otherwise you wouldn't be saying Rom. 2 is offering salvation to those who persevere in doing good deeds. That very clearly speaks of one's own efforts...not just allowing the Holy Spirit to do His "job".

 

[shad]

Show me the verse you keep harping on, Shad. I'm thinking it may be the only one you know.

If you're talking, Seek ye first the kingdom of God, you got it wrong.
This "make every effot" just isn't ringing any bells....I want to see the verse.

Here you go which I already showed you but you have been ignoring. that's why I have been repeating.

Luke 13:24
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

.

Glory???? You are ignoring again. You keep ignore when you are stuck.

glory, I am still waiting.

 

[jasoncran]

sorry guys three of you have hit the dead end and two of you are bickering. i think we can all say amen to this thread is over.

pm me if you want this to continue , and i will unlock provided that all parties are civil, tit for tat isnt christ like.