Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

Discussion in 'Theology' started by Jim Parker, Mar 29, 2017.

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  1. WIP

    WIP Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm not going to engage in this debate where one is unwilling to acknowledge the other's points of discussion. As I read some of these back-and-forth arguments I can't help but be reminded of the scene from the Monty Python series where the guard at a bridge denied passage and during the ensuing battle the guard lost both arms and legs and still denied that he was injured and continued to challenge his foe.
     
  2. JLB

    JLB Member

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    :salute
     
  3. billybalke

    billybalke Member

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    Have you replied to my post #2408?
     
  4. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Christian:
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    Here is truth: those given eternal life will NEVER PERISH. So says Jesus in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    If your opinion is that He didn't mean what He said, please explain what you think He meant.
     
  5. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Christian:
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    The condition of believing in the present results in having eternal life.

    John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    And in this verse, Jesus was clear: those given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

    How is that not eternal security for those given eternal life?
     
  6. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Christian:
    Yes
    Your question assumes people become sheep. I explained WHY that isn't possible from the text.

    No, I explained WHY your question was wrong.

    Again, here is WHY the question is wrong: sheep do NOT BECOME a sheep. Sheep are ALWAYS a sheep. That's why.

    And I gave the answer, which is found in v.9.

    You're not following what I've explained.

    I explained WHY your question was wrong: sheep DO NOT BECOME sheep. The reality is that SOME of THE sheep become HIS sheep.

    If the difference cannot be deciphered, further discussion will be futile.
     
  7. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Christian:
    Yes
    I have acknowledged the opposition's points. And refuted them with much more clearly stated verses.

    Well, I extended an invitation to discuss the opposition's verses and points.

    I don't know how that's not being willing to acknowledge the other's points of discussion.
     
  8. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Christian:
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    Your post only contained 2 quotes of mine. I suggest you go back and take a look at that post. There was nothing to reply to.
     
  9. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    Right! So the sheep do not have to do anything to become a sheep. They are one because God made them that way. I am glad you are starting to see this clearly now. Being a sheep is not based on you believing - you believe in Christ because you are a sheep.

    So, those who are His sheep hear Him and follow Him - just like He says in John 10:27. But the ones who do not hear Him, or follow Him, are not His sheep.
     
  10. Gregg T

    Gregg T Member

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    It appears that you are projecting your doctrine onto an opponent.

    What do you think of this:
    Joh 10:26 But you do not believe for you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

    Do you think those He was speaking to, those not His sheep at that time, could later be saved after Christ was resurrected and ascended?
     
  11. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    Projecting my doctrine onto an opponent? I'd love an explanation of how that works.

    I believe it is possible that anyone believe in Christ for salvation - except those who have already and chose to reject Him for a return back to sin.

    So the ones in John 10:26 had as much possibility as anyone else. They just did not believe at that time because they were not His - not being His meant that it was impossible that they could hear what He was saying or follow Him. He makes this quite clear with the very next sentence.
     
  12. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    I don't understand your comment. How does a sheep become a sheep? That doesn't make sense. A sheep IS a sheep.
     
  13. billybalke

    billybalke Member

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    Just went back and checked post 2408, my reply is in the 2nd frame.
     
  14. Gregg T

    Gregg T Member

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    Could they be saved future to that conversation in Jn 10:28-29, if they afterwards repented and then believed in Him? Yes or no please?
     
  15. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Christian:
    Yes
    When I checked it, there were 2 quotes of mine. No comments from you. Maybe you could copy and paste your comments with my comments into a new post, so I could respond.

    Thanks.
     
  16. billybalke

    billybalke Member

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    My reply is at he bottom of the 2nd quote
     
  17. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    Then is a goat always a goat? Do you believe sheep and goats are created as such and can never be either or?
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  18. Nathan

    Nathan Staff Member Tech Support

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    I honestly do not understand your question.

    In order to answer with a straight yes or no I need to fully understand what your asking.

    Are you asking if they believed in Jesus, later on(after He made the statements), then they would be saved before He made the statements? That's how I am reading it, and it does not make sense to me. And there is no way I could answer it with a yes or no.

    I think it might be an conflict of our thoughts about salvation. They did not believe because they could not hear. Whether it was because God did not allow them at the time, or they had hardened their hearts, I do not know.

    If later they were able to hear, and believed in Him, then their salvation is/was just the same as all others. Salvation does not happen as a result of our doing(believing), it has already happened. It's done. We either believe it or deny it.

    In the end, it comes down to those who believe and those who don't. There are only two groups we see in the end.
     
  19. Gregg T

    Gregg T Member

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    Concerning the ones Jesus spoke to in Jn 10:28-29, could they become saved at a later date? Suppose they believed in Jesus after His Resurrection, could they be saved after His Resurrection?
     
  20. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Please explain how the condition of believing is no longer required after a person has repented and believed.

    Unbelief is plainly described as not continuing to believe, which is described as not continuing to obey.

    Unbelief is Disobedience.

    Unbelief is not continuing to believe.

    If a person believes for a while, then no longer believes, they are no longer a believer, having returned to unbelief.


    12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

    Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

    16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:12-19


    Eternal life is promised to those who believe, not those who do not believe.


    Same exact thing Jesus taught:

    13 But the ones on the rock
    are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

    Believe is the condition for salvation.

    Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


    It's up to you to prove, that those who are unbelieving, who no longer believe, still somehow satisfy the condition for salvation and eternal life, with scripture.



    JLB
     
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