Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[JLB]

JLB,
FreeGrace did not say 'no condition for eternal life', but
he did say 'no coditions for recipients of eternal life'

Big difference in meanings. Was that unintentional on your part?

Just show the scripture where the condition for eternal life, which is believe, has changed, in which there is no longer the condition to believe, before, after or during the time a person first believes.

To believe the Gospel is to obey the Gospel, by repenting, which is turning to the Lord.

Those who turn to the Lord, by turning away from Satan as Lord, are forgiven of their sins.

• Paul describes this commission from the Lord:

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

• in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

If later on in a Christians life, they decide to depart from Christ, because of persecution, then they have gone back to serving Satan, and no longer have Jesus as Lord, because they no longer believe.

This is called being a hypocrite: Hypocrites are assigned to hell.

Unbelief is Disobedience. Same Greek word, and is used interchangeably.

• those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:8

In addition, you guys who believe in OSAS, seem to disregard all the scriptures that teach us about eternal life, and the fact that we inherit eternal life, and that it is to those who have done good, not evil, that will come forth in the resurrection of life.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8



Here are those who will receive eternal life:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:28-20

• shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

and again

• that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

Hope because we have faith in Jesus christ for the salvation of our souls.

Faith is the substance of the thing we are hoping for.

We who have been justified by His grace, have the hope of eternal life, which is to say, we have the hope of coming forth in the resurrection of life.


Jesus describes this for us:

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

• those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead

It is at the resurrection of life, that we will be as the angels, as sons of God, and can no longer die anymore.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[JLB]

The point of Jn 5:24 is that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. It is a present possession on the basis of believing.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

If you only quote a part of Jesus words, then you can make them say what you want, but those who hear his words, and believes [obeys] will come forth in the resurrection of life.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said:
"Your theology claims that people can believe in Christ Jesus as Lord yesterday, then today they can believe Allah is Lord, and still have the eternal life that is only promised to those who believe."

to which FreeGrace applied:
"Actually, Jesus said that those he gives eternal life to will never perish. It seems your view is radically different than what Jesus said about it. Why is that?"

Wouldn't it be most likely that one who professed faith in Christ, and then later converted to Islam, was never saved at all?

Possible, but not necessarily "most likely". I know how much some are highly bothered by any notion of one who apostatizes and still gets into heaven. But what Jesus said removes all doubt about it.

Getting into heaven is God's plan. Which is to believe in Christ as Savior. When a person puts their faith in Christ, there is an immediate change: they possess eternal life (John 5:24) and on that basis ALONE, they will never perish.

But it seems some will just not believe that good news. It seems to be very bad news to them. Almost like, "how DARE God let those apostates in!" Well, that's grace. And ONLY grace. None of us will EVER deserve to get into heaven. Even those who remain faithful all their lives. That isn't their "ticket" in.

The ONLY reason God will let ANYONE into heaven is because of grace. So when one does trust in Christ, they are given eternal life, which is irrevocable (Rom 6:23, 11:29), and the Holy Spirit, which marks the believer and places them into union with Christ (Eph 1:13) which is a deposit that guarantees their inheritance (salvation) for the day of redemption (Eph 1:14) as God's possession.

I say this based on 1Jn 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us."

This is an interesting verse. I'm reminded of Acts 15 and the dispute over circumcision.
1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

It seems to me that the "certain people" of v.1 are the "believers who belongs to the party of the Pharisees". When the Bible describes people as "believers" I take that as saved people. In this case, they held to a false doctrine of circumcision, not unlike believers of this day who claim "unless you are baptized, you cannot be saved".

So I understand 1 Jn 2:19 as saved believers who held to false doctrine of some kind.

Can you imagine a congregation that contains believers who are strongly convinced that one can lose salvation along side believers who are strongly convinced that no one can lose salvation?

I'd guess each group could use 1 Jn 2:19 to describe the other group. "they were not of us".

 

[FreeGrace]

Recipients doesn't tell us they are his sheep and they follow him.

The issue is whether one can lose their salvation or not. In John 10:28, the point is that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

So it doesn't matter who the recipients are. The FACT is, that those recipients will never perish.

It's v.27 that informs us of who the recipients are. His sheep, of course. Meaning, saved people. He gives eternal life to saved people, would you not agree?

So, Once Saved, Will Never Perish is a fact from John 10:28.

The truth is they are his sheep, and he is their Shepherd, and his sheep follow him. And the truth is his sheep will not follow a stranger. Jesus is telling us in advance that his sheep will not follow a stranger.

Got it. And in v.28 He gives NO CONDITIONS to His sheep in order to never perish.

The simple fact is that once given eternal life, the one given eternal life (they are called repicients by the mere fact of being given eternal life) will never perish, because Jesus said so.

So, what''s to argue?

 

[FreeGrace]

Just show the scripture where the condition for eternal life, which is believe, has changed, in which there is no longer the condition to believe, before, after or during the time a person first believes.

The point is being missed completely.

Eternal life is GIVEN WHEN one believes. Please quit missing that. It is at THAT POINT (when one is given eternal life) that the recipient of eternal life will never perish. So said Jesus.

If later on in a Christians life, they decide to depart from Christ, because of persecution, then they have gone back to serving Satan, and no longer have Jesus as Lord, because they no longer believe.

As a Christian, they HAVE BEEN GIVEN eternal life. And Jesus says those He gives eternal life will never perish. Jn 10:28

This is called being a hypocrite: Hypocrites are assigned to hell.

Did Jesus fail to die for the sin of hypocrisy? Where can I learn about that from Scripture?

The rest of your lengthy post failed to disprove or refute the clear words of Jesus in Jn 10:28 where He said that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

So, what we learn from His words is that in order to never perish depends solely on what He has done for us. Not anything we either do for Him or fail to do for Him.

By the simple FACT that the believer receives from Him eternal life, they will never perish.

But your view is radically different from what He said. Why is that? They verses are clear enough.

 

[billybalke]

Possible, but not necessarily "most likely". I know how much some are highly bothered by any notion of one who apostatizes and still gets into heaven. But what Jesus said removes all doubt about it.

Getting into heaven is God's plan. Which is to believe in Christ as Savior. When a person puts their faith in Christ, there is an immediate change: they possess eternal life (John 5:24) and on that basis ALONE, they will never perish.

But it seems some will just not believe that good news. It seems to be very bad news to them. Almost like, "how DARE God let those apostates in!" Well, that's grace. And ONLY grace. None of us will EVER deserve to get into heaven. Even those who remain faithful all their lives. That isn't their "ticket" in.

The ONLY reason God will let ANYONE into heaven is because of grace. So when one does trust in Christ, they are given eternal life, which is irrevocable (Rom 6:23, 11:29), and the Holy Spirit, which marks the believer and places them into union with Christ (Eph 1:13) which is a deposit that guarantees their inheritance (salvation) for the day of redemption (Eph 1:14) as God's possession.


This is an interesting verse. I'm reminded of Acts 15 and the dispute over circumcision.
1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

It seems to me that the "certain people" of v.1 are the "believers who belongs to the party of the Pharisees". When the Bible describes people as "believers" I take that as saved people. In this case, they held to a false doctrine of circumcision, not unlike believers of this day who claim "unless you are baptized, you cannot be saved".

So I understand 1 Jn 2:19 as saved believers who held to false doctrine of some kind.

Can you imagine a congregation that contains believers who are strongly convinced that one can lose salvation along side believers who are strongly convinced that no one can lose salvation?

I'd guess each group could use 1 Jn 2:19 to describe the other group. "they were not of us".

I Jn2.18 reads that those of vs 19 were of the antichrist who were never saved in the 1st place.

 

[FreeGrace]

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

If you only quote a part of Jesus words, then you can make them say what you want, but those who hear his words, and believes [obeys] will come forth in the resurrection of life.

OK, please provide an explanation for this baseless charge. What is clear from Jn 5:24 is that those who believe possess eternal life.

If there is disagreement, then just show the thread how so. But this repeated and baseless charge only shows a failure to support your view.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

So? How does v.28 nullify my point that "those who believe have eternal life" from v.24?

This has YET to be explained.

 

[FreeGrace]

I Jn2.18 reads that those of vs 19 were of the antichrist who were never saved in the 1st place.

OK. How about what Paul wrote about the last times in 1 Tim 4:1?
" The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

These are apostates; former believers who abandoned the faith.

John noted in v.18 that there were "many antichrists". It should be clear that this would include apostates, who are saved, btw.

Why is an apostate saved? Because Jesus gave them eternal life WHEN they believed, before they abandoned the faith. And He said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. That means "stay saved". Won't go to hell.

 

[JLB]

OK, please provide an explanation for this baseless charge.

Word for word quote from the Lord Jesus Christ:

• all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and
those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


If you declare Jesus words as baseless, then I can see why you only quote a small part of the scripture, in which you "cherry pick" the parts of verse's that seem to support your theory.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Wouldn't it be most likely that one who professed faith in Christ, and then later converted to Islam, was never saved at all? I say this based on 1Jn 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us."

What is the condition for salvation?

Here is the answer from Jesus: lest they should believe and be saved.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

If you believe there is more to being saved than believing, then please explain what more we are to do other than believe?

• lest they should believe and be saved.

According to Jesus, believe = saved.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while do indeed rejoice in their salvation, which is evidence by the illustration of the plant springing up and spouting roots.

By when persecution comes, the temptation to save themselves is great, and they depart from Christ in order to save themselves.


Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

Those who have faith to the end are saved, in which they will receive the salvation of their souls.

Peter says it this way; Same context, trial, tribulation, persecution and enduring to the end.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

The end result of a life of life, that has endured to the end, is the salvation of your soul.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13


Same context, as above; Enduring under trial, tribulation, persecution,



JLB

 

[MarkT]

I will point out that the Greek word for "not obey" is 'apietho' and is defined by lexicon as "not obey, or not believe".

Right. It's he who does not obey.

The point of Jn 5:24 is that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. It is a present possession on the basis of believing.

So, it should be obvious that WHEN one first believes in Christ, they possess eternal life.

Now, in John 10:28, Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. There's no getting around that promise.


I respectfully disagree. A reward, by definition, is earned. Salvation is by grace, and therefore, cannot be earned.

Actually it's based on hearing the word of God. Those who reject his word, reject life.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

John 6:68
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;

 

[MarkT]

re. eterrnal life. I agree it is by grace. It's a gift because we didn't earn it. It's a reward because you have to endure trials and temptation. It's a crown for running the race. It's something we hold on to by faith.

 

[JLB]

re. eterrnal life. I agree it is by grace. It's a gift because we didn't earn it. It's a reward because you have to endure trials and temptation. It's a crown for running the race. It's something we hold on to by faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"OK, please provide an explanation for this baseless charge."

Word for word quote from the Lord Jesus Christ:

• all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and
those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

How does this explain anything? What does it mean to you?

If you declare Jesus words as baseless

Oh no! Not Jesus' words. Your charge that I ignore parts of Scripture. Seeming to insinuate that the words I focus on mean something else when the other words of the verse/text are included.

Yet, there never has been any explanation to show how that is.

Frankly, the claim that salvation can be lost is what is baseless. There's no Scripture that says so in plain language.

otoh, Jesus SAID those He gives eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28.

then I can see why you only quote a small part of the scripture, in which you "cherry pick" the parts of verse's that seem to support your theory.

By all means, please explain how my so-called "cherry picking" makes any difference at all to my points. I'm really interested.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

There it is, in black and white. "he who hears My word and believes...has eternal life". So, what's the problem?

Possession of eternal life is WHEN one believes. If there is disagreement, please explain WHEN one possesses eternal life. With Scripture, of course.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

OK, where's the explanation of how these 2 verses refute my point about v.24. Because I can't imagine how they would.

You've done a very good job of quoting verses and passages, but a very poor job of providing any explanation as to how they support your view or refute mine.

 

[billybalke]

OK. How about what Paul wrote about the last times in 1 Tim 4:1?
" The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

These are apostates; former believers who abandoned the faith.

John noted in v.18 that there were "many antichrists". It should be clear that this would include apostates, who are saved, btw.

Why is an apostate saved? Because Jesus gave them eternal life WHEN they believed, before they abandoned the faith. And He said that those He gives eternal life will never perish. That means "stay saved". Won't go to hell.

You might want to read the one-on-one between Cygnus and me for the answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

Please provide any text that teaches this. Luke 8:12,13 sure doesn't. It does teach that a believer may cease to believe.

But we all know what Jesus said about those who believe in John 5:24; they HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. And we all know what He said about those He gives eternal life in John 10:28; they shall never perish.

So your claim is refuted by 2 very clear verses.

Those who have faith to the end are saved, in which they will receive the salvation of their souls.

Those who have been given eternal life will never perish. Said Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The point of Jn 5:24 is that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. It is a present possession on the basis of believing.

So, it should be obvious that WHEN one first believes in Christ, they possess eternal life."

Actually it's based on hearing the word of God.

Is there any reason to leave out believing? Jesus included believing as the basis for possessing eternal life. He said "hears and believes" because one must hear and understand before they can believe.

Those who reject his word, reject life.

Right. We call those, unbelievers. But ONCE a person HAS heard and believed, they possess eternal life, so said Jesus in John 5:24.

And Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

re. eterrnal life. I agree it is by grace. It's a gift because we didn't earn it. It's a reward because you have to endure trials and temptation. It's a crown for running the race. It's something we hold on to by faith.

It seems your point is that eternal life is by both grace and works. That is contradictory. It cannot be both.

It's only one; which is by grace. Not earned, not a reward.

The crown for running the race is about rewards, which ARE earned.

 

[FreeGrace]

You might want to read the one-on-one between Cygnus and me for the answer.

No thanks. I'm good.

 

[JLB]

How does this explain anything? What does it mean to you?

Here Jesus will explain who will receive eternal life, and who will not:

His words -

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Here is His exact words as to who will receive eternal life: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.

• Note: words of Christ in red

If you choose not to hear His words then, then you are willfully violating the condition He set forth for eternal life.

• he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life

Hear - Listen with the intent of doing

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

My explanation means nothing.

My advice to anyone is the same: Do what Jesus says, and you won't do wrong.




JLB