Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Seabass]

Good post.

It's interesting that the folks who say, " simply believing in Christ doesn't really save." But if you "simply stop believing in Him you will be unsaved."

Or ......faith alone in Christ doesn't really save a person, But losing your faith alone in Christ will unsave you!

What a mess some believers are in.

Believing does save, believing only does not save.
Faith does save, faith only does not save.
There is a difference.

Therefore since belief only does not save to begin with, then if one stops believing only he cannot lose salvation for he never had it to lose.

Your argument fails to differentiate between believing only and believing for a simple believing only in Christ doesn't really save to begin with but if one quits a biblical obedient belief that does save he will be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, I'm not putting conditions anywhere. Just stating the clear words that Jesus said. Are you putting conditions on His words?

Your stated position is that some saved people will perish, in so many words. Or is your position that every saved person will never perish? Please advise.

His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Those who are not hearing His voice and are not following Him are not His sheep.

This isn't relevant. The only issue is that those He gives eternal life will never perish. And from 5:24 we KNOW that "he who believes HAS eternal life".

So your view ACTUALLY DOES add conditions where Jesus never did.

Do you agree that every one who receives eternal life will never perish? Or are there conditions for recipients of eternal life in order to nevef perish? Please advise.

He specifically states that it is His sheep that He gives eternal life to and who will not perish. He never stated that He gave eternal life to those who did not hear His voice and follow Him.

So? The point is that all those who are given eternal life will never perish.

And from John 5:24, we KNOW who HAS eternal life: "he who believes". Period.

If you do not hear His voice and do not follow Him you are not His sheep.

The Bible is clear: these being described have NEVER believed in Him. So of course they won't have eternal life.

But the clear fact remains; ALL those given eternal life will never perish.

That is eternal security for ALL believers.

 

[MarkT]

OK, now to relate this to John 10:28 about those He gives eternal life. What about them? He said they will never perish.

That is eternal security.

First you say 'no conditions', then you say 'recipients' - So does it depend on receiving or not?

The sheep are his disciples; they follow his teaching (like sheep). They hear his voice (the voice of the Shepherd), and they follow him.
Jesus sent out his disciples to preach the gospel. See any conditions yet? Who does he give life to? His disciples.

If a person falls away from the truth, are they still his disciples?

If a person falls into unbelief, he is an unbeliever. He is certainly not a disciple. Doesn't matter what he did or believed in the past, he can not be restored to repentance again.
Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

If a person shrinks back, he is destroyed. "But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls." Heb. 10:39

 

[Cygnus]

First you say 'no conditions', then you say 'recipients' - So does it depend on receiving or not?

The sheep are his disciples; they follow his teaching (like sheep). They hear his voice (the voice of the Shepherd), and they follow him.
Jesus sent out his disciples to preach the gospel. See any conditions yet? Who does he give life to? His disciples.

If a person falls away from the truth, are they still his disciples?

If a person falls into unbelief, he is an unbeliever. He is certainly not a disciple. Doesn't matter what he did or believed in the past, he can not be restored to repentance again.
Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

If a person shrinks back, he is destroyed. "But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls." Heb. 10:39

The problem being for this theology is that if you actually can lose your salvation.....YOU ALREADY HAVE.
Then you cast more doom onto it when your theology states .....there is no second chance. Which means according to your theology, there really is no salvation.

 

[Nathan]

Your stated position is that some saved people will perish, in so many words. Or is your position that every saved person will never perish? Please advise.


This isn't relevant. The only issue is that those He gives eternal life will never perish. And from 5:24 we KNOW that "he who believes HAS eternal life".

So your view ACTUALLY DOES add conditions where Jesus never did.

Do you agree that every one who receives eternal life will never perish? Or are there conditions for recipients of eternal life in order to nevef perish? Please advise.


So? The point is that all those who are given eternal life will never perish.

And from John 5:24, we KNOW who HAS eternal life: "he who believes". Period.


The Bible is clear: these being described have NEVER believed in Him. So of course they won't have eternal life.

But the clear fact remains; ALL those given eternal life will never perish.

That is eternal security for ALL believers.

Do you feel the need to make it sound like I am saying something other than what I am because you find yourself challenged, or just angry?

Verse 27 of John 10 is inseparable from verse 28. I am not listing any conditions, as you falsely accuse me of, I am simply stating what Jesus states. If you are having a hard time believing verse 27, we can work on that.

Jesus states that His sheep, who are the ones He gives eternal life to, hear Him and follow Him. He contrasted that with the previous verses of those who do not hear Him or follow Him - specifically because they are not His sheep.

If you are not hearing Jesus and following Him - you are not His sheep. You add conditions to being His sheep if you say that you can be one without hearing or following Him. Do you hear Jesus and follow Him?

John 5:24 clearly states, whether you want to change it or not, that the ones who do have eternal life(aka His sheep) do in fact hear Him and believe in Him. It does NOT say that you recieve eternal life from hearing Him and believing Him - it is very clear, those who hear Him and believe HAVE eternal life. Why? Because they are His sheep - His sheep hear Him and follow Him. Do you hear and follow Jesus?

Jhn 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

We can clearly see that Jesus does not say that you receive eternal life from believing and hearing - but they have eternal life and they have passed from death to life. Very clear. The one who hears and believes has already passed from death to life, they already have eternal life - which is why they can hear and is why they believe. You do not read "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me will be given" or "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me will receive".

Nope. Its quite plain. Whoever hears His word and believes Him who sent Jesus HAS eternal life. Do you hear Him and believe in Him who sent Jesus?

 

[Cygnus]

Believing does save, believing only does not save.

So, here's what I just did.....I went to the pen drawer and removed a sharpie and drew a dark black line through John 3:16. I did it extra heavy over the word believe.

 

[Nathan]

The problem being for this theology is that if you actually can lose your salvation.....YOU ALREADY HAVE.
Then you cast more doom onto it when your theology states .....there is no second chance. Which means according to your theology, there really is no salvation.

You keep saying this, but you have no Scripture to back this statement up with. Why? Where do we see that if it is possible to loose salvation you already have?

 

[Seabass]

So, here's what I just did.....I went to the pen drawer and removed a sharpie and drew a dark black line through John 3:16. I did it extra heavy over the word believe.

Why? John 3:16 does not say "he that believeth only in Him ".

Or did you cross it out because it does not say "he that believeth only in Him"?

 

[Cygnus]

Jhn 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

What it really says....
Jhn 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Whoever stops believing in him who sent me no longer has eternal life. He falls back into judgement and passes from life back into death.

 

[Cygnus]

You keep saying this, but you have no Scripture to back this statement up with. Why? Where do we see that if it is possible to loose salvation you already have?

Actually it's pretty obvious. The OSNAS sets up conditions to maintain eternal life. The problem is the OSNAS sect can't maintain the conditions that they require. That means you have already lost your salvation...and Heb. tells us it's for good.

 

[Nathan]

2Pe 3:14-18
Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[Cygnus]

Why? John 3:16 does not say "he that believeth only in Him ".

Or did you cross it out because it does not say "he that believeth only in Him"?

I have no clue as to what you're trying to say. But it really doesn't matter because my bible no longer contains John 3:16.

 

[Seabass]

I have no clue as to what you're trying to say. But it really doesn't matter because my bible no longer contains John 3:16.

Evidently you ASSUMED John 3:16 teaches "belief only".
Therefore when I said belief only does not save, you crossed the verse out as if I was getting rid of that verse.

Yet Jn 3:16 does NOT teach belief only saves. By making John 3:16 teach "belief only" saves, then that change made to the verse creates a contradiction within the teachings of Christ for Christ never taught belief only saves. Luke 13:3 Christ made repentance as much an essential, necessary part of being saved as belief. So how can belief only ever save an impenitent person? It cannot for belief only does not save.

 

[Cygnus]

you crossed the verse out as if I was getting rid of that verse.

No, your theology crossed the verse out. I simply took the advice of your theology and followed suit.....NOW you're arguing with me for adopting your theology.

 

[Cygnus]

Yet Jn 3:16 does NOT teach belief only saves.

Which is why I followed your theology and crossed out that verse.

 

[Gregg T]

I believe your understanding is flawed.
No work is "meritorious." Good works are what we were created to do. (Eph 2:10) One is not awarded "merit" for doing one's job.

Faith without works is like an airplane without wings.
Having faith includes being faithful to obey the LORD's commands.
Failure to obey the LORD's commands is prima facia evidence that, in fact, you do NOT have faith.
Jesus said several times that we will be judged based on the evidence of our good works.
John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Works will not save anyone.
Faith without works will not save anyone either.

Show me your faith without doing anything and I will show you my faith by what I do. (Jas 2:18)
(It's a trick challenge. You cannot show your faith without faithfully doing the works of the faithful.)

iakov the fool

That is what I am saying, no works merit salvation.

But also that our works do no keep us saved. Eph 2:8 "For by grace you are saved {perfect passive participle, nominative} through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;"

saved here means: delivered, protected; saved from danger, loss, or destruction
perfect tense:

a past action completed in full, where the result of that action continues; the action of God saving both occurred and was completed in full in the past, but the resut of being saved continues​

passive voice:

action performed by another on behalf of the subject, who is God​

Participle:

paraphrastic adjectival use following the being verb 'are'​

nominative:

predicate nominative Indicated by the implied subject 'you' and afterwards identified by 'yourselves';​

 

[FreeGrace]

First you say 'no conditions', then you say 'recipients' - So does it depend on receiving or not?

I've been real clear. There are no conditions for recipients of eternal life. By the mere FACT that they have been given eternal life from Jesus, they will never perish. Because Jesus SAID so.

There absolutely IS a condition for being a recipient of eternal life. One MUST believe in the Savior.

But in John 10:28, Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life for never perishing.

And Arminians, the ones claiming a saved person CAN perish, DO ADD conditions to recipients of eternal life in order to not perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you feel the need to make it sound like I am saying something other than what I am because you find yourself challenged, or just angry?

How about addressing at least SOMETHING in my post? There was NOTHING in my response to your post that "sounds angry" or like something other than what you've posted.

It seems I'm not the one feeling challenged. From John 5:24 with 10:28, I have NO REASON to feel challenged at all. But because of those 2 verses, every Arminian should feel VERY challenged.

Verse 27 of John 10 is inseparable from verse 28.

OK.

I am not listing any conditions, as you falsely accuse me of, I am simply stating what Jesus states. If you are having a hard time believing verse 27, we can work on that.

I've already acknowledged v.27 as the description of who the "them" and "they" are in v.28.

Jesus states that His sheep, who are the ones He gives eternal life to, hear Him and follow Him. He contrasted that with the previous verses of those who do not hear Him or follow Him - specifically because they are not His sheep.

And again, irrelevant to v.28. From John 5:24 we KNOW that "he who believes HAS (as in possesses) eternal life."

So John 10:28 adds that it is Jesus Himself who gives eternal life. And it's to believers WHEN they believe who are the recipients of eternal life.

John 5:24 clearly states, whether you want to change it or not, that the ones who do have eternal life(aka His sheep) do in fact hear Him and believe in Him.

My point as well. The fact that there is the idea that I might "want to change it" only reveals your complete lack in having any grasp of my view or points. So why even bother to debate, since you're unaware of my position?

It does NOT say that you recieve eternal life from hearing Him and believing Him - it is very clear, those who hear Him and believe HAVE eternal life.

Huh? This doesn't make any sense to me. If something is given to you, you have received it. That makes you a recipient of whatever you've been given.

Jhn 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

We can clearly see that Jesus does not say that you receive eternal life from believing and hearing - but they have eternal life and they have passed from death to life. Very clear.

When John 10:28 is also considered, we learn that those who HAVE eternal life have it because Jesus GAVE it to them. I suspect you're not really following the logic of this discussion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Cygnus said: ↑
I have no clue as to what you're trying to say. But it really doesn't matter because my bible no longer contains John 3:16.

Evidently you ASSUMED John 3:16 teaches "belief only".
Therefore when I said belief only does not save, you crossed the verse out as if I was getting rid of that verse.

Yet Jn 3:16 does NOT teach belief only saves.

What did Paul teach the jailer about how to be saved?

{hint} Acts 16:31

 

[Jim Parker]

That is what I am saying, no works merit salvation.

But also that our works do no keep us saved. Eph 2:8 "For by grace you are saved {perfect passive participle, nominative} through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;"

saved here means: delivered, protected; saved from danger, loss, or destruction
perfect tense:

a past action completed in full, where the result of that action continues; the action of God saving both occurred and was completed in full in the past, but the resut of being saved continues​

passive voice:

action performed by another on behalf of the subject, who is God​

Participle:

paraphrastic adjectival use following the being verb 'are'​

nominative:

predicate nominative Indicated by the implied subject 'you' and afterwards identified by 'yourselves';​

I don't set a lot of value in arguments based on grammar since the grammar of the ancient Koine Greek and that of modern, American English differ so much. The conclusions reached by such efforts invariably focus on a set of "proof-texts" and require that many passages of scripture be totally ignored.

The point I have constantly made is that every believer will be judged by his works.
James challenged the church to show their faith without works and said he would demonstrate his faith BY his works.

The evidence of our faith is our works. They don't just happen automatically; we have to choose to do them and, to a greater or lesser degree, doing them requires that we exert effort, that is, we "work" at it. The church has been infiltrated by Gnostic-sounding, antinomian (Lit., “against the law”) teachers, who teach that faith saves apart from repentance, works or virtue. That is a false teaching.

Scripture explicitly states that we will be judged by our good works and that those who have no good works will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

See: Mat 25:31-46; Jhn 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13; 22:12 -14

iakov the fool