Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

They have the choice or to react to the Holy Word of God. They can hear, but if the word does not draw them to Christ, then they have no excuse. For without Christ, there is no way to be escape from the wrath of God coming upon all men and souls on Judgment day. The visible church is full of bench warmers that have heard the Gospel, but never accepted Christ. They put their security in Tithing, going to church or works, and living their life as they want to. They say, our prays are with you, but they never pray. They are self willed with the doctrines of men. and wallow in the mire that they have been instructed on how to escape from.

But the verse says they have escaped. Past tense. They left the mire. They left the defilement of the world.

So did they quit being bad by self will, or did God save them? Has to be one or the other right?

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.


"Last" state vs "first" state is also a clear indication of seperation between positions. And because it says "last" we know that there is a middle state there. Other wise, it would be first and second states.

 

[chessman]

I guess that's actually two questions.

Yes, it is two questions. You could have asked them in one sentence, however, by using the following grammatical syntax:
How do you view sanctification and 'the fruit' Paul speaks of?

Paul uses the conjunction "and" in one sentence (Rom 6:22) to clearly communicate the two things we ("freed from sin" and "enslaved to God" believers in Christ) have.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.​

After establishing who it is he's talking about (yes people of faith in Christ) he says;

You have:
1. Your fruit leading to sanctification
And
2. It's (sanctification's) end eternal life.

This is just common sense grammar and exegesis of the Text. Plain and simple, Paul says we have two things!

His sentence forms the logical syntax as follows: (disclaimer: I can explain this further if requested but if people are not interested in 'logical syntax' analysis then ignore it. But it's useful. This forum would NOT exist without taking advantage of logical syntax (computer coding).

F + G = S + EL where:
F = Set free from sin
G = enslaved to God
S = your fruit leading to sanctification
EL = sanctification's end eternal life

How do you view sanctification? And 'the fruit' Paul speaks of?

I view them the way the Bible tells us to view them.
Sanctification = holiness
Yes, for all fallen men, sanctification is a process. I have never believed or stated otherwise. However, sanctification being a process toward our completed holiness (body and soul) does NOT negate the fact that Paul says we have it NOW. That's the point.

And no, no and triple no; I do not think that our bodies (our flesh) have sanctification (holiness) now. Nor does Paul. On the other hand, our souls now have (not might have in the future) the indwelling of God! I.e. The baptism of the Holy Spirit. If that's not the sanctification of a human soul, then what is???

Sanctification means the believer is being progressively transformed by the Lord into His likeness (similarity of nature). One step (a required step) is F (being set free from sin). Another step is G (enslaved to God). Paul is saying that having F + G = S + EL not of the flesh but of our souls.

How does faith fit in to your equation above?

The same way it does for Paul and for you. He's obviously talking about people of faith via the context of the sentence.

Does Paul speak of it (indirectly) in the verse you quote?

From the preceding context, sure. The "you" is defined here:

Romans 6:17-19 (NASB) But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted, and having been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness. ​

 

[chessman]

But the verse says they have escaped. Past tense.

No, it says "if" after they have escaped.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the

Do dogs escape being a dog or rather do dogs return to their vomit?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, it says "if" after they have escaped.



Do dogs escape being a dog or rather do dogs return to their vomit?

New creations don't get to stay new creations if they turn away from the Lord.

 

[Nathan]

Yes, it is two questions. You could have asked them in one sentence, however, by using the following grammatical syntax:
How do you view sanctification and 'the fruit' Paul speaks of?

Paul uses the conjunction "and" in one sentence (Rom 6:22) to clearly communicate the two things we ("freed from sin" and "enslaved to God" believers in Christ) have.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.​

After establishing who it is he's talking about (yes people of faith in Christ) he says;

You have:
1. Your fruit leading to sanctification
And
2. It's (sanctification's) end eternal life.

This is just common sense grammar and exegesis of the Text. Plain and simple, Paul says we have two things!

His sentence forms the logical syntax as follows: (disclaimer: I can explain this further if requested but if people are not interested in 'logical syntax' analysis then ignore it. But it's useful. This forum would NOT exist without taking advantage of logical syntax (computer coding).

F + G = S + EL where:
F = Set free from sin
G = enslaved to God
S = your fruit leading to sanctification
EL = sanctification's end eternal life


I view them the way the Bible tells us to view them.
Sanctification = holiness
Yes, for all fallen men, sanctification is a process. I have never believed or stated otherwise. However, sanctification being a process toward our completed holiness (body and soul) does NOT negate the fact that Paul says we have it NOW. That's the point.

And no, no and triple no; I do not think that our bodies (our flesh) have sanctification (holiness) now. Nor does Paul. On the other hand, our souls now have (not might have in the future) the indwelling of God! I.e. The baptism of the Holy Spirit. If that's not the sanctification of a human soul, then what is???

Sanctification means the believer is being progressively transformed by the Lord into His likeness (similarity of nature). One step (a required step) is F (being set free from sin). Another step is G (enslaved to God). Paul is saying that having F + G = S + EL not of the flesh but of our souls.



The same way it does for Paul and for you. He's obviously talking about people of faith via the context of the sentence.


From the preceding context, sure. The "you" is defined here:

Romans 6:17-19 (NASB) But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted, and having been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness. ​

If sanctification is a process, and the end of it is eternal life, then how do you come to the conclusion that we have the end of the process that is still happening?

I'm confused of how "the end" has already come to us, but we have not reached it yet, because we are in the process of sanctification?

If I'm on a trip with my family, and my kids ask me "are we there yet?", I say no - we are still on the way. They know what the end of the trip is, no doubt about it, but we have not gotten there yet. So it would be silly of me to say, "yes, we are there, here is the end of our trip, but we are still on our way".

 

[Nathan]

No, it says "if" after they have escaped.



Do dogs escape being a dog or rather do dogs return to their vomit?

Peter is not saying they have escaped being a human? They escape the old ways of life, just like a dog - in its natural state - will eat its own vomit. Sin = vomit. They return to sin, which means they have to leave it in order to return.

When we come to Christ we don't escape being a human, we escape the defilement of the world - we are set free from sin. What else is escape from the defilement of the world than that?

The "if" is just that, if. Peter is not saying that someone has to return, he is just saying if they return. It shows the possibility of return, and the outcome if that return happens.

 

[chessman]

The first rendering of the verse says that the benefit results in an outcome which is eternal life. It does not say that result is a present reality.

Yes it does. Do believers have the fruit (the holiness of the Holy Spirit)? Yes!

the second rendering of the verse states that the "end" is eternal life. The word "end" is from the Greek "TELOS." (τέλος)
The word refers to a goal, an objective, an end result.

An outcome. An outcome (end) of believing is that you get two things:
1. Sanctification (of the soul, not the flesh)
2. Eternal life (a believer's soul never dies, but his flesh sure does)

The previous verse provides contrast of two paths and clarity for the meaning of the word translated "end."

Rom 6:21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end (τέλος) of those things is death.

What fruit did you have then (prior to having the fruit of the Holy Spirit in us)? None!

Not only was your flesh leading you toward Hell, but so was your mind/soul.
But now, having the sanctification of the soul, we await the sanctification of our flesh.

Romans 6:21 Romans 7:25 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. ​

...
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Amen! Preach on brother.

In this case, verse 22 was separated from verse 21 and made to stand alone without any context.

No it wasn't. I've been patiently addressing ever single context Nathan has introduced. From Genesis, Leviticus to Hebrews.

There's zero context that shows a conflict with belivers having eternal life now. When we recognize that Paul's talking about the life of the soul in contrast to the life of the flesh, poof it's crystal clear.

 

[JLB]

Incorrect.
It's an adjective, not a verb. If he would have said 'always in the past' he would have communicated just that. All time past. But he didn't communicate in this sentence in any way but present and future.

Philippians 1:20 (NASB) according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. ​

Was Christ being exalted in him when he was persecuting the Christians?


What you posted is not even a whole sentence. It's a snip from Paul's long sentence within which he explained exactly what he meant by "departure from the faith"

1 Timothy 4:2-5 (LEB) ... by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.​

19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.



Even now: a reference to the present.

As always: a reference to how Paul conducted himself in the past.


Here's another one, which actually corresponds to the thread topic.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4;1

• Depart from the faith: a reference to departing from faith in Christ. Future [in the latter times]
• giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons: present tense, but referring to the latter times.

What you posted is not even a whole sentence. It's a snip from Paul's long sentence within which he explained exactly what he meant by "departure from the faith"

1 Timothy 4:2-5 (LEB) ... by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

Paul, by the Spirit explains that people will depart from "the faith", which is a reference to "the faith" in Christ Jesus.

Not "some other" faith, but "the faith" in Christ, as the context shows clearly.

8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 3:8-4:1

Paul even expounds on "the faith which is in Christ Jesus" with the mystery of godliness:


The Spirit is teaching us that people will indeed depart from the faith in Christ Jesus, giving heed to doctrines of demons, one of which is the doctrine that one can never lose their salvation, because once they are saved they are always saved.


By believing this, people can then just live anyway they choose and believe that nothing is off limits, even dabbling in other religions [idolatry] or extra-marital relations [adultery], because they have given heed to "once I am saved, I'm always saved".







JLB

 

[chessman]

If sanctification is a process, and the end of it is eternal life, then how do you come to the conclusion that we have the end of the process that is still happening?

I have answered this several times previously. Sanctification is a process to our completed holiness (body and soul). God's process (the one He uses) is the sanctification of our immaterial nature/souls (hearts, minds, spirits) here and now before that of our souls through the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Later down the road, comes the sanctification of the body.

I'm confused of how "the end" has already come to us, but we have not reached it yet, because we are in the process of sanctification?

See above answer as well as my previous replies to this question.

Two non-rhetorical questions for you:

Does your soul have the Holiness of the Spirit of God living in your soul?
Does your flesh have the Holiness of the Spirit of God living in your flesh?

If I'm on a trip with my family, and my kids ask me "are we there yet?", I say no - we are still on the way.

Your bodies are still on a trip, sure.

But your souls???

Ephesians 2:4-7 (NASB) But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.​

We (our souls) have completed the trip!

 

[chessman]

Was Christ being exalted in him when he was persecuting the Christians?

As always: a reference to how Paul conducted himself in the past

Your case appears weak because you do not answer relevant questions.

 

[JLB]

But the verse says they have escaped. Past tense. They left the mire. They left the defilement of the world.

So did they quit being bad by self will, or did God save them? Has to be one or the other right?

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.


"Last" state vs "first" state is also a clear indication of seperation between positions. And because it says "last" we know that there is a middle state there. Other wise, it would be first and second states.

Your points are crystal clear.

They were cleansed from the pollutions of the world, and went back to them.

This scripture alone should suffice anyone who is honestly searching for the truth, that OSAS in an unbiblical doctrine.


Thank you Nathan, for walking in the integrity of the Apostles doctrine.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Your case appears weak because you do not answer relevant questions.

The answer is clear:

19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

Even now: a reference to the present.
As always: a reference to how Paul conducted himself in the past.


JLB

 

[Nathan]

I have answered this several times previously. Sanctification is a process to our completed holiness (body and soul). God's process (the one He uses) is the sanctification of our immaterial nature/souls (hearts, minds, spirits) here and now before that of our souls through the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Later down the road, comes the sanctification of the body.


See above answer as well as my previous replies to this question.

Two non-rhetorical questions for you:

Does your soul have the Holiness of the Spirit of God living in your soul?
Does your flesh have the Holiness of the Spirit of God living in your flesh?


Your bodies are still on a trip, sure.

But your souls???

Ephesians 2:4-7 (NASB) But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.​

We (our souls) have completed the trip!

This is most interesting. I have never heard someone believe in the sanctification of a human body/flesh. If our flesh was being sanctified, wouldn't it be getting "better", not worse? In other words, we know sanctification is purification. If our flesh was being purified, then they would be healing - not decaying. Sin causes death. Also, it is only God who can sanctify, so if our flesh was being sanctified, that would mean He would have to be at work in our flesh.

The Spirit of God lives in us, not in our soul and not in our flesh. In us. In our hearts.

Do you believe we are in Heaven with God right now? Do you believe that this is Heaven here on Earth?

 

[Nathan]

No it wasn't. I've been patiently addressing ever single context Nathan has introduced. From Genesis, Leviticus to Hebrews.

There's zero context that shows a conflict with belivers having eternal life now. When we recognize that Paul's talking about the life of the soul in contrast to the life of the flesh, poof it's crystal clear.

There is no "life of the flesh" - apart from the soul. You keep making this distinction, but its nowhere to be found.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Ecc 12:7
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

God formed us from the earth, and that's where our flesh is going to go back to. It is not being sanctified???

So that leaves the only other option - our souls are being sanctified. If sanctification is a process, then we cannot have the outcome of that process until it is finished.


Hebrews 11:39-40; Hebrews 12:1-8
And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,

nor be weary when reproved by him.

For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,

and chastises every son whom he receives.”

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Do you believe God disciplines our flesh or soul?

 

[Douglas Summers]

But the verse says they have escaped. Past tense. They left the mire. They left the defilement of the world.

They escaped by the knowledge! The had the knowledge to escape, but they TURNED from the Holy commandment given them. For it would have been better for them to not have KNOWN it, to turn from it. These are those people (Matt. 7:15-23) V. 24- They heard the Holy Word, but did not doeth them! and (Matt. 12:43-45)
Note, They were always a dog or swine and returned to their former character that had never changed. When a man is born again, there is a permanent change in him. He may backslide, but he is no longer a dog or swine. Thus (John 10:27-30)

People seem to forget that Christ is our propitiater. An eternal mercy seat for His Sheep or Son's. (1 John 2:1-2), Because we do not always do what we should (Gal. 5:15-18).

But those who turned from the knowledge, never had the Spirit to begin with. They are religious natural men like Cain and Balaam. Never born again (2 Pet.2:1-19)

 

[chessman]

if our flesh was being sanctified, that would mean He would have to be at work in our flesh.

Who says He's not??? By the Holy Spirit:

Romans 8:13-14 (NASB) for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. ​

The Spirit of God lives in us, not in our soul and not in our flesh. In us. In our hearts.

This seems like disagreeing over semantic terms such as hearts, "eyes of the heart", mind, spirit, inner parts, souls, etc. etc.
The point is, we have a physical body and a non-physical "us".

What Scripture are you referring to that says the Spirit of God lives in our hearts and not in our souls?

Do you believe we are in Heaven with God right now?

No.
I believe we have been "raised up" and "seated in the heavenly places", don't you?

Ephesians 2:6-7 (NASB) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. ​

Do you believe that this is Heaven here on Earth?

No.

There is no "life of the flesh" - apart from the soul. You keep making this distinction, but its nowhere to be found.

There is life apart from the body.

John 11:25-26 (NASB) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”​

This is most interesting. I have never heard someone believe in the sanctification of a human body/flesh

2 Corinthians 5:1-5 (NASB) For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. ​

Having prepared (past tense) us "now" with new 'hearts' (if you prefer that word over new souls) He has pledged to renew our bodies (our tents we live in now). So what that they return to the dust first??? I'd prefer a new body anyway.

God formed us from the earth, and that's where our flesh is going to go back to. It is not being sanctified???

God formed Adam from the Earth, not us. Your parents formed your body.
Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve?

Our bodies return to the dust and... what???
Get resurrected (made by God himself) at our resurrection. God's that powerful, you know. He can make donkey's talk. He did it once with Adam and has pledged that He will do it again to us. This time, sanctified bodies made directly by Him, not our human parents. They have no way of making immortal bodies. But God can and more importantly will when the next step toward our complete sanctification takes place.

 

[Nathan]

They escaped by the knowledge! The had the knowledge to escape, but they TURNED from the Holy commandment given them. For it would have been better for them to not have KNOWN it, to turn from it. These are those people (Matt. 7:15-23) V. 24- They heard the Holy Word, but did not doeth them! and (Matt. 12:43-45)

Your conflicting your statement. Either they had the knowledge and did not escape, or they had the knowledge and did escape.

Did they or did they not escape the defilement of the world?

 

[Nathan]

Who says He's not??? By the Holy Spirit:

Romans 8:13-14 (NASB) for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. ​

This seems like disagreeing over semantic terms such as hearts, "eyes of the heart", mind, spirit, inner parts, souls, etc. etc.
The point is, we have a physical body and a non-physical "us".

What Scripture are you referring to that says the Spirit of God lives in our hearts and not in our souls?


No.
I believe we have been "raised up" and "seated in the heavenly places", don't you?

Ephesians 2:6-7 (NASB) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. ​

No.


There is life apart from the body.

John 11:25-26 (NASB) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”​

2 Corinthians 5:1-5 (NASB) For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. ​

Having prepared (past tense) us "now" with new 'hearts' (if you prefer that word over new souls) He has pledged to renew our bodies (our tents we live in now). So what that they return to the dust first??? I'd preach a new body anyway.




God formed Adam from the Earth, not us. Your parents formed your body.
Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve?

Our bodies return to the dust and... what???
Get resurrected (made by God himself) at our resurrection. God's that powerful, you know. He can make donkey's talk. He did it once with Adam and has pledged that He will do it again to us. This time, sanctified bodies made directly by Him, not our human parents. They have no way of making immortal bodies. But God can and more importantly will when the next step toward our complete sanctification takes place.

I did not see anything saying God is sanctifying our flesh? You are still calling out our flesh as its own entity, as something that can make decisions for us and itself. Very Gnostic in its essence.

First we have to understand that God is not sanctifying our flesh, but creating a completely new body for us. He does not "dwell" in our current flesh.

Rom 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Now we have to understand that God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit - dwells in us - by faith!

Ephesians 3:14-19
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

You might think it is semantics, but I assure you there is a difference in what the Bible calls out as - heart, mind, soul, body, spirit.

Jesus said it this way;

Matthew 22:37 - And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

If Jesus draws a distinction, I think we should be wise to understand there is one - not just write it off as semantics. The heart is different than the soul. The Soul is who we are. Its our 'will center' - it is where the choices are made - it is our conscience. The heart is where our emotions, feelings, and most important - our desires take place. Our mind is where our thoughts are, our reasoning capabilities - knowledge and wisdom.

That is why we can 'think' something and not do it. It is why we can feel something and not do it. God, through His Spirit, dwells in our hearts - changing(through sanctification) our desires. He effects all areas of who we are, and in turn it should 'show' itself in the controlling of our flesh. But the flesh is just a vessel - and is going to be nothing. When we get to the end of our 'trip', we get new bodies for the new place we will be. Our old bodies don't just return to the dust - they stay there. They will be destroyed with the rest of the Earth in preparation for the new Earth.

Yes, I believe in a literal Adam and Eve. They were physical humans, and their bodies have long since gone back to the dust they were created by. Adam, Eve, and everyone else in the world will not receive "sanctified" bodies. You will not find any Biblical idea of such. We receive totally new bodies - not sanctified - brand new. Bodies that have never seen sin or been a part of it.

I think this all may be a confusion of what sanctification is. Curious question, have you studied into what sanctification is?

 

[chessman]

You are still calling out our flesh as its own entity, as something that can make decisions for us and itself. Very Gnostic in its essence.

You guys carry on. I'm through. Take care.

2 Peter 1:5-9 (NASB) Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. ​

 

[Nathan]

The whole - heart, mind, soul - thing is why you 'sin' even if you do not physically do it. However, it is why we 'do' things once our heart and mind have agreed and convinced our soul to proceed.

God is purifying our heart, soul, and mind - as we speak. Its a work in progress. The end of this is/will be eternal life.

If we were complete in this purification, then our heart would only be toward God, our mind would only think the things of God, and our Soul would only choose that which is of God.

However, we see that all three of those things are not so - if those things were pure - there would be no sin. Sin is not something that is on the outside, affecting the inside - sin comes from the inside and effects the outside. Quite literally, we see that we are not completely pure because we still sin.