Sex Before Marriage

[Quath]

When it comes to spiritual health, there is nothing I can say for that (since it is not something I believe in). If we call it something else like "psychological health", then I could comment. But I don't think that is what you mean.

The vow before God sounds romantic in some context, but I think that the way it is and the way it was demeans the idea. In the past, it was ok to have multiple wives and to have sex with your slaves. Some women have to deal with abusive or cheating husbands. So the vow starts to turn into a trap into an unhealthy relationship.

I kind of find it more romantic to see people living together rather than married. That means they are together because they want to be together. Not because of some (legal/religious)promise they made years earlier. Maybe that is just me though.

 

[lovely]

I guess I would assume that romance is only found in marriage. Marriage is a lot of other things besides romance, but that is part of it to a degree. I have a difficult time attaching that term to living together, though. The thought embarrasses me actually. I don't think I could give my heart, my life, to someone who said, "...and hey, we may even get married after we test each other out." I wonder why our culture considers things forbidden, or rebellious, more romantic? It seems the opposite to me for many reasons. If my husband would have asked me to live together first, I would assume that he didn't value me, love me as he should, and was not as upright (willing to be responsible or committed before God) as I originally thought, and though I am not a violent person, I think a stinging slap would be a good response to the question followed by a permanent exit.

I think there can be many problems in marriages, but they can also exist in a live in situation, even more so it would seem to me. As far as ownership goes, I think there is a proper way to look at that idea. I belong to my husband, and he belongs to me...this is part of our vow before God, and before others. I don't believe that either one of us would think that God condones multiple marriage, and such...it was a distortion, and sin, I believe. That means no one else has the right before God to even consider him as available, and vice versa. I have my role, and he has his, but sin can complicate this, or rather distort it. Sin complicates many things, and distorts them, but if we are careful who we marry, allow our family to be in on the process, remain accountable to our brothers and sisters in Christ, and make an effort to be obedient to God...well, this ownership idea is a beautiful situation because then it reflects Christ and His church in a more accurate way. I don't see any reason to abandon the model, or delay it, for the sake of trying things out first at all...divorce is caused by sin...the same root that feeds things like living together, adultery, abuse, etc.

I guess we just have completely different perspectives. The Lord bless you.

 

[dancing queen]

lovely,
i just wanted to let you know how much I have appreciated your comments on all this. In one thread (which I can't find or would have replied there) I think you were one of the ones saying how dating wasn't biblical, and like many others i thought that was just weird to start with. However, after some thought, I am inclined to agree.

I always agreed with no sex before marriage (I think once you sleep with someone you are married, afterall in the bible marriage isn't the signing of a piece of paper, it is becoming one flesh, even if that is with a prostitue, can't remember where that verse is). Anyway, I explained this to the youth group I lead as, if you had sex with anyone but the man/woman God intended you to, you were commiting adultry on your future partner, they all agreed. After your posts I was thinking, surely in a relationship I consider kissing someone else adultry so surely kissing someone other than your intended is also adultry to your future husband/wife. (Youth group weren't so impressed with this idea as most are in relationships)

They couldn't get how you couldn't date, but looking back on my life I wish I hadn't. It would have avoid a lot of hurt that still haunts me today (am desperate to get rid of it but can't seem to). Also, my fiance and I were best friends before we got together, and I knew I wanted to marry him before we got together, so my life would have been better without dating. I already see us as married we are just saving up so we can move in together and dont want to actually get married until we can afford a wedding and a house. The vows have been said before God, but we want to say them again to Him infront of family and friends. (Have alot of non christian family and friends so hoping to find ways to make the wedding fab witness to)

Sorry for long post, I just wanted to thank everyone for helping me get to where I now am with all this. I know it will be extremly valuable to me to have sorted out my opinions on this for when I have kids.

 

[Jon-Marc]

I don't understand how having sex with someone before you marry them will prevent a divorce. Just because you're sexually compatible doesn't mean you're compatible in other areas. If you base a marriage on sex alone, what happens when one of you no longer wants sex and the other one does? You will generally end up with one cheating on the other as my first wife did. There are a lot of ways a marriage can go bad. In my opinion people place entirely too much importance on sex and not enough on talking and communicating with one another, doing things together, forgetting self and trying to please your spouse. Too many people are too selfish to make a marriage successful.

 

[lovely]

dq,

I was blessed by your post to me. I have also had some experiences here where I have been able to glean truth from someone. I am so blessed every time that happens.


Jon-Marc,

You said a mouthful...I agree.

The Lord bless you both.

 

[The Busymind]

I think this will be the final time this is clarified. The question i posed is a hypothetical one. Say for instance, for some unknown cosmic reason, if you did not have sex before you got married, you were doomed to a lifetime filled with divorce, would you have sex before marriage?

I dont think i can make it more clear than that, and it seems to me by the poll that most of the people on this forum would rather be divorced, something affecting many parties (ie. Children, Parents etc) instead of having sex, something affecting only 2.

I do have a somewhat off topic question for Quath though, If you are not religious, why are you signed up to a Christian forum? Don't get me wrong, i enjoy your comments and value their wisdom, but the fact that your posting on a Christian forum slightly confuses me.

- TBM

 

[Quath]

I do have a somewhat off topic question for Quath though, If you are not religious, why are you signed up to a Christian forum? Don't get me wrong, i enjoy your comments and value their wisdom, but the fact that your posting on a Christian forum slightly confuses me.

A lot of it is curiosity. I wondered how people could be religious in this day and age. I wondered how people dealt with what I saw as obvious contradictions and logical flaws in religon. Then I began to understand that.

I also learned that there are many kinds of religious people. They vary from the strict interpretation, conservatives to the loose translation, liberals. I see some deep seated meanness and some genuine love for the fellow man. So I stayed to understand that.

Then I wondered how religion would affect me and other atheists. I wondered if there was room for us all to get along? Or are the two groups incompatible on a fundamental level? I wanted to see how political values are derived and how they change over time.

I am a scientist and most people I am around are atheists or agnostics. Even the Christians I am around tend to be the liberal type that are ok with the idea that the Bible may have errors and truth may not be fully known.

So this forum helps me try to understand people I am not normally around and it gives me hope that we can all get along socially and politically.

 

[Lewis]

I am a scientist and most people I am around are atheists or agnostics. Even the Christians I am around tend to be the liberal type that are ok with the idea that the Bible may have errors and truth may not be fully known.

Quath' the only errors in the english Bible's are translation errors. Otherwise than that' there are none. And you can't prove it ether' because there are none.But I don't want to start a debate in this thread' because it is off topic. But I just could not resist' letting that comment of your get by.

 

[Quath]

Quath' the only errors in the english Bible's are translation errors. Otherwise than that' there are none. And you can't prove it ether' because there are none.But I don't want to start a debate in this thread' because it is off topic. But I just could not resist' letting that comment of your get by.

I am sure you and I could agree with all the errors and contradictions in the Quran. A Muslim would probably agree with me about the errors and contradictions in the New Testament. Yet both you and the Muslim are blind to the errors and contradictions in your holy book. Your mind refuses to see it and would rather come up with bizarre explanations to get around them.

But I guess that is a debate for another thread.

 

[Relic]

I am sure you and I could agree with all the errors and contradictions in the Quran. A Muslim would probably agree with me about the errors and contradictions in the New Testament. Yet both you and the Muslim are blind to the errors and contradictions in your holy book. Your mind refuses to see it and would rather come up with bizarre explanations to get around them.

But I guess that is a debate for another thread.

No Quath, your explanations are bizarre and in denial of truth. What is an atheist doing here anyway? Well, you are here to try to preach to Christians of how you think God should have done this or that. Quath's way is better than God's way, Aye, Quath? :roll:

And in reality Quath, most Muslim would not agree with you about the contradictions in the Quaran, but would most definitely bash the New Testament because they don't believe Jesus to be the Messiah, but believe Mohammed to be their Messiah. So of course, Quath, you would find those who are opposed to the New Testament to take sides with your bizarre and perverted interpretations of it.


You, Quath, present comments that are antagonist and clearly show an intent to create confusion and perversion of biblical truth by presenting your perverted logic. Quath's perversion of truth is the only thing you believe.


Now What's the subject of this thread?

Oh yes, The Questions is this: "Would you have sex before marriage to prevent a divorce?" "Should Christians obstain from sex before marriage if it causes them to be wed earlier and therefore increase the risk for divorce, or should Christians have sex to prevent from having a divorce?"


This topic presents a totally absurd idea to begin with, because sex outside of marriage is clearly a transgression against the 'HOLY" Spirit, it robs people of what "the sacredness of physical union in marriage" is all about in the eyes of our "Holy" God. Abstinence is set apart for all those who are "of" God. But you Quath, present pagan, hedonnistic and heathenish ideas to Christian people! Shame on you!

And you, Quath, present extremely bizarre thoughts:

"I see things in a secular fashion and not in a religions one so I think that sex before marriage is probably a good thing. To me sex is about loving, caring and physical release. Marriage is about committment and taking care of each other. So there is overlap, but there are places where they don't have to overlap. " ...

Your thoughts/beliefs, Quath, neglect consideration of the variety of consequences of engaging in premarital sex but you only come here to present your approval of premarital sex and separate it from a "HOLY" sacredness which God meant for it to be. You Quath, present anti-Christ thinking on a Christian forum.
Most secular thinking neglects much of the the truth provided by way of history, the truth of consequences. And, most secular thinking defies that truth for the sake of these secular type people's own desires to hold onto sin. They love being in the sins of the world! They neglect the fact that All sin is not without consequence. And you, Quath, come here without the truth of consequences of this type of sin, but only come here with distorted perverted ideas of your own saying you think "premarital sex is a good thing" ! Sad, so sad that you spend 3 years on a Christian forum with your eyes wide shut!


.

 

[Atonement]

Quath I will say this, if you can prove to me there are errors and contradictions in the Bible and nothing would be distorted by your own atheist way and "bizarre" thinking, but can prove a true contradiction, meet me in the One on One debate forum!!!

 

[Quath]

Quath I will say this, if you can prove to me there are errors and contradictions in the Bible and nothing would be distorted by your own atheist way and "bizarre" thinking, but can prove a true contradiction, meet me in the One on One debate forum!!!

I can't prove it to you just as I can't prove the Quran has errors to a Muslim. A mind that is already made up can not be changed. But I can post some of the more obvious contradictions in the Bible in that forum and see where it all goes.

 

[Atonement]

I'll see you there

 

[The Busymind]

Relic, First off, You embarrass the hell out of me. Its people like you and your fundamentalist foolishness that make Christians sound like idiots. How can you mock Quath like that, and then turn around and emphasis the word Holy? Quath's opinion is very valuable, useful, and something we all can benefit from. Regardless if he is a Christian, he still has a lot of wisdom, and shares it openly with all of us. But you, you mock this opportunity to grow and understand someone who doesn't believe what you do. Remember, Christ ate with the heathens, was educated under the gentile philosophers, and was of a descendant of a prostitute. I also find it ironic that you spent a page "rebuking" someone, and yet, in your fury of righteousness, neglected the question entirely. Good Job.

Quath, Please accept my apology for my colleague's offensive closed mindedness. Your information and point of view is very valid here. If anything, we are very welcoming of you in spite of your world view. We will not separate you because of your beliefs, the same that Christ didn't separate the Gentiles and Jews.

In regard to the contradictions in the bible, someone give me the link to that forum. There are many contradictions in the bible, and I would love to help Quath in his explanation. I agree with him as well in his argument that it does not matter what we argue, because everyone here is going to believe what they want to anyway.

 

[Quath]

Quath, Please accept my apology for my colleague's offensive closed mindedness. Your information and point of view is very valid here. If anything, we are very welcoming of you in spite of your world view. We will not separate you because of your beliefs, the same that Christ didn't separate the Gentiles and Jews.

Thanks. One thing I have learned on this board is that there are many types of Christians. The ones here tend to be a lot friendlier than some Christians I have encountered elsewhere. I know my presense probably frustrates or irritates some, but a lot of courtsey has been extended to me. I appreciate the hospitality I receive here, though it may get heated at times.

In regard to the contradictions in the bible, someone give me the link to that forum. There are many contradictions in the bible, and I would love to help Quath in his explanation. I agree with him as well in his argument that it does not matter what we argue, because everyone here is going to believe what they want to anyway.

It was in the Debate secition at the top level fo this forum. However, we ended the debate a day or two ago.

There are a couple of web pages that I think do a good job showing the contradictions. However, nothing is really new and many Christians have felt they have solved them all. But if you are interested they are at Ebon Musings and Infidel.org.

 

[GundamZero]

The validity of the Bible is not the topic being discussed here. And the original question is way out of context.

This is a problem I run into a lot, because the questions are never asked in proper context.

I'm assuming the questions asks if a person marries, it may be for sexual relief. The scenerio in question is:
A "Christian" raised to believe that sex outside of marriage is sin has trouble controling his/her sexual desires. Therefore, in the foolishness of their youth, they loose perpective and marry before they're ready. Later on, they find they really weren't ready for marriage and get a divorce. Is that the question?

The problem lies in that a good Christian should never given to the desires of the body, no matter how it hurts or how hard it is. A Christian who truly loves Christ will understand that, and no matter how hard it gets, a Christian will not compromise their faith if they are truly devoted.

However, if for some reason a Christian forsakes her/his better judgement, and marries for the temporal things like sex, money, etc, they stilll needn't sin. You see, God blesses all marriages that have a true devotion to each other at the center of them. Even if the marriege was not made to God, the Lord blesses those who obey his call not to divorce, even if they don't know they're obeying him. And a husband and wife who are willing to make it work, even if it was a "mistake" will be blessed if they try to make it better, because the Lord will bless that devotion, and kindle love eventually.

As for Christian? Sadly, they ought to know this. It grieves me deeply that believer talk about holiness but continually fall short of God's command to be holy. When push comes to shuv, they don't seek the Lord, and that is why they get a divorce. If they were truly concerned about God, they wouldn't be so hastey in leaving each other.

Did you know Paul even said that religion didn't even excuse divorce? Now Paul did say that you should not enter into marriage relationship with a non-Christian, but he did tell us that if someone is converted after they're married, they shouldn't leave their spouse. In fact, Paul said that God blesses those marriages with peace, as long as the non-believing spouse will not go.


Quath? As you are an open minded individual, you will probalby agree with me, that since everyone is different, people see things differently. So, in your dealings with the Bible, I'm sure your open enough to understand that your arguments are just as suspect as a Christian's, and that any information we find out of the past is disputable. So, understand that I approach this world one way, and you approach it another. I'm not arrogant enough to say that your reasons are bad. I don't think anyone arrives at their opinions because they're idiots. I don't believe anyone on this earth is inferior to me. But in life, sometimes we make judgements when we don't have all the variables accounted for. To you, my logic is flawed and I don't have all the information. To me, the same of you.

I'm going to say something probably haven't heard from too many Christians. There is no way anyone, by their own mental ability, can find truth. Not a single person on the face of the earth understands truth fully; in fact, if we're both honest, we seem to confuse ourselves a lot, too.

And let me tell you something. No Christian will ever be able to prove God to you, not even one, not even me.

And I can't even prove God to myself.

But I know Him. I don't understand why he said he had to be crucified, but I know it had to be. I don't understand why I sin. I do the things I don't want to do, and I don't do what I know I want to do. I don't understand anything.

You can't find anything in books, debate, or even science. Only a few hundred years ago, every scientist new the earth was flat. Until about a hundred years ago, every scientist new that light was a wave and that was that. No, you can't even depend on science.

So, if truth is out there, even the truth that there is no truth, how do we find it?

No, don't worry, I'm not going to pull that crap. You can't find it in the Bible either.

I can't seem to find it either. But I know it.

 

[Quath]

I thought that was a pretty good post, GundamZero.

 

[The Busymind]

GundamZero,

I have to applaud the elegance of your post. Its rare to meet someone who is able to explain what they think using such a poetic rhetoric. Obviously, beliefs are personal, and impossible to break, but I still have to quietly raise my voice.

I'm getting two degrees. One is in the school of Philosophy, and the other is in History. The one thing I have learned in life, the one thing that keeps my spirits high through low times is that Truth is attainable.

My life's hero is the great Greek Philosopher, Socrates. He is one of the most powerful influences in my schooling (as they both focus on the Greco-Roman world) and I love him so deep that I even get a little teary eyed when I read about his death.

When you say that Truth is not something we can know, i have to disagree with you. Truth is the one thing in this life that we can attain. Its the one absolute that all people are subject to. That we all bow to. I'll admit, its not found in any one book, whether it be the Bible, the Republic, Crito, Phadeo, Ethics, or Thus spoke Zathurusta, but its there. It breath's like a new born baby, its a quiet and as motivational as a small child, its as powerful as all the tears in the world, and its as evident as the air we breathe. We cant see it, we cant touch it, to even speak of it must be done in a quiet murmur, but its there.

I dont intend to spend this time arguing if we can know truth, though I assure you I'd be more than willing to debate it in a debate forum, I just wish to raise my voice and say that absolute truth does exist, and can be known by everyone. If anything, its one of the few links for all humanity.

On the issue of what that truth is, thats for a later time. As to where it is, thats for a different day. As to its existance, trust me, it exists.

TBM

 

[GundamZero]

I dont intend to spend this time arguing if we can know truth, though I assure you I'd be more than willing to debate it in a debate forum, I just wish to raise my voice and say that absolute truth does exist, and can be known by everyone. If anything, its one of the few links for all humanity.

On the issue of what that truth is, thats for a later time. As to where it is, thats for a different day. As to its existance, trust me, it exists.

Now, I must raise mine.

First and foremost, I did not say that absolute truth does not exist. And I agree that this truth links all of mankind, past, present and future.

Trust you? I'm sorry. I applaud your endeavors in academics. But I tell you this; a novice child is more apt to discover truth than Plato, Socrates, or Einstien ever were.

I maintain. Know person can know the truth, but take a closer look, and I added a something to that phrase. No person on their own ability can find truth. No human is objective. And there is not one human on the face of the earth who knows everyone's cirmcumstances and has a ability to judge another.

But maintain my faith all the stronger. I haven't the ability to judge by myself, but I have full authority and responsibility to shun evil and love goodness. I have no faculty strong enough to grasp the absolute truth, and yet I have the full ability, confidence, and power to speak truth and hear it when it's spoken.

And I maintain at the same time that no human can do these things by themselves. By these alone, not for any other, am I a Christian, a champion of the truth, all because I don't understand it.