Shame!

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by ezrider, Sep 11, 2017.

  1. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    In a different thread Chopper made a comment about death being what separates us from God. So what does separate us from God?

    Romans 8:38-39
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


    For i am persuaded that neither death, nor life,...... can separate us from the love of God.


    But there is only one thing that can separate us from the love of God: Shame.


    Shame is the one thing that separates us from God. But it is a separation of our choosing, because of shame.


    In the Garden of Eden, it was only after Adam had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge, that he knew his shame and he hid himself from the Lord.

    Genesis 3:7-10
    And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.


    John 5:28-29
    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    A resurrection of life, and a resurrection of damnation. Daniel describes it this way.

    Daniel 12:2

    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


    A resurrection to shame and everlasting contempt.

    It is shame that causes us to hide from the Lord. Yet He still calls unto us. So does shame separate us from the love of God, or do we separate ourselves from God because of shame?

    What does everlasting shame and contempt look like? Is shame and everlasting contempt the second death?


    The scripture is rich with references to shame. All are welcome to join in this study on SHAME, and if shame separates us from the love of God.

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
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  2. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    Psalms 4:2
    O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame?
    how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.

    Hebrews 6:4-6
    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
     
  3. Hermit

    Hermit Member

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    Not all definitions for words are found in the bible/scriptures.
    Just to add another thought to this thread.

    Psychologically 'shame' is similar to 'guilt', but more so.
    Guilt is believing that we made a mistake. Hence, we say to ourselves. "I better not sin (do that) again".
    Shame is believing that we are a mistake. Hence, we say to ourselves. "I am a sinner".
     
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  4. Not_Now.Soon

    Not_Now.Soon Member

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    Luke 18:9-14. The parable of the Pharasee and the tax collector.
    ___________________________
    9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else,Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fasttwice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

    13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

    14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
    ______________________________________

    In this parable a man's shame brought about his begging for God's mercy and was justified by God. While the other man's pride served him no benifit. Except to say that those who exalt themselves will be humbled.

    I don't think sin and seperation from God are that cut and dry to pin on one element. Sham can lead to seperation to hide, or it can lead to repentance. Appreation can lead to thankfulness or it can lead to pride and arrogance. The ways we can fall into sin are many, and Satan knows those traps well. But by faith, love, and humility, we can get out of many of those snares. And by forgiving others, God will forgive us in the snare we did get caught up in.

    Either way. A study on shame should be good. Know a bit about this trap so to help ourselves and others from falling into it. Good luck Ezrider. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
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  5. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    Shame did not separate Adam from the love of God, but did cause Gods judgement to come upon him as he paid the consequences of his sin against God as he fell to temptation and was cast out of the Garden of Eden that was to be a paradise to him and all generations, Hebrews 10:26, 27.

    Gods compassion was on them as He made them coats of skin to cover their shame, Genesis Chapter 3; Job 29:14; Zechariah 3:3, 4; Rev 19:8. It was never mentioned in scripture if Adam and Eve repented, but there is inclination that they did as God blest them with children and through their son Seth men began to call upon the Lord which would include Adam for how would Seth know of God if Adam did not teach him, Genesis 4:25, 26.

    When Adam sinned God sought him out and showed Adam his sin. God also showed them the consequences of their sin. God also blest them with children of whom called upon the name of the Lord, so no, shame did not separate Adam from God as only blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can separate us from the love of God as there is no forgiveness, Matthew 12:31-34.
     
  6. Kidron

    Kidron Member

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    Shame created Adam and Eve to want to hide from God.
    But its sin that separated them from having fellowship with God.
    We, are born into this same situation.
    This is why God created the Atonement.
    Its His once and for all time (eternal)(free) solution for our (fallen adamic nature) situation, so that we can again be an eternal part of His righteous family.
     
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  7. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    Thank you NNS, and I agree with you. Shame can work in both directions to and extend. The parable of the prodigal son would be another example. Shame brought him back. The knowledge of his own shame brought him back. But does shaming someone have the same effect? Or does it tend to result in the opposite?

    There is a snare and a trap that we should be aware of. The scriptures warn us that Christ is a stumbling block, but how so?
     
  8. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    That bears repeating.

    Shame is believing that we are a mistake. That God did not created me this way. God did not create me with this sin nature. But who is the clay vessel to demand of the potter, why have you made me such?

    Our sense of failure under the law brings forth shame, and we seek a covering from that sin in repentance so that we can say I have no sin. But but in Christ, there is no shame in saying "I am a sinner", for this is the way the Lord has created me.
     
  9. dirtfarmer

    dirtfarmer Member

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    dirtfarmer here

    Shame has a way of making us humble. It also has the ability to cause us to question our actions. But, it is unbelief that separates us from God. Adam's unbelief in God saying "you shall die the day ye eat thereof", is what cause the separation between him and God. And it was God's mercy and grace that provided the coats of skin for a covering. Sins may break fellowship between the believer and God, but it never harms the relationship. We see in the Genesis account that the fellowship between Adam and God was hindered, but not the relationship. In the mind of God, Christ had already been crucified before the foundation of the world so that God could have mercy and not judgment on Adam
     
  10. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    Thanks dirtfarmer. I like what you have said about shame having a way of making us humble, as well as your thoughts towards unbelief. I must concede that you and Not_Now.Soon have addressed another aspect of shame that I did not consider when I created this thread. I have no objections to these aspects of shame being discussed in the thread. My thread and OP was on shame, and we should be wiling to understand it in all aspects.

    So again, you are more than welcome to continue discussing those aspects of shame and how shame humble us and bring us back to Christ. But there was one aspect of shame that I was trying to address in the OP, and that was the resurrection to shame and everlasting contempt spoken of in John 5:29 and Daniel 12:2.

    The Idea of everlasting shame and those cast into the lake of fire.

    Jeremiah 23:36-40
    And the burden of the Lord shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God. Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken? But since ye say, The burden of the Lord; therefore thus saith the Lord; Because ye say this word, The burden of the Lord, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the Lord; Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
     
  11. Hermit

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    "Faith" in the Lord overcomes the cause for shame, which is fear.

    Guilt is a warning sign for us to change; "I better not sin again".
    However, if fear of something is stronger than the desire to change, one is bound to repeat the sin.
    If fear keeps the person in sin, the start believing that they are a mistake, because they make the same mistake. They do not realize that it is the "fear of change" which enslaves them to the sin.

    Repentance of sins is a prayer for change. If they are humble enough to their need for change, they will discern the fear which enslaves them. In that discernment (truth), if they place their faith in the Lord to face and overcome their fears of change, they will change. Hence, no more shame for that sin.
     
  12. Not_Now.Soon

    Not_Now.Soon Member

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    There's merrit in these points that shame is not the source of separation. But also the matter of shame bringing a seperation should be noted. Since this is the point of the thread please excuse my post. It won't have things for a bible study. But just a few things from life. I bring these up so that the bible study can continue, for the merrit that can come from it.

    On more then one occasion, some of my sins are too tempting for me. Moments when I can't resist, or moments when I can resist but don't want to. It is often one of the same two sins. A short fuse when it is actually ignited, or a burning lust that I don't want to quench.

    Of course these moments are countered by the aftermath. The anger shows in time that it was not right, not with any merrit, just an explosion. Of all the lessons to learn from these times, there is also the shame of having them at all as well. And so seeking forgiveness verses just trying to avoid the person or the people become an issue. And if who was wronged was a stranger, it makes it ever harder to approach later on. I see this sin with my interactions with people. And it's shame can be applied to trying to avoid God about it too. Expecially if this is a repeated struggle.

    Lust is the sin that is just between myself and God. It has been this was since lust attached itself to me in highschool or in junior high. It remained privite for the most part because something to satisfy the lust could always be a click away, if not streight outside of the imagination. As a teen the guilt and repeating of this sin lead to stronger sences of shame. Longer periods before asking for God's forgiveness, and avoiding prayer because I was ashamed.

    The issue of shame being a seperation has it's merrit. Let's not dwell on if it's the only things to seperate us from God, or if it can be use to being us to God. These points have been made. But to strengthen ourselves against shame, we should dive into the matter so the trap will have less success on any of us to keep us from God.
     
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  13. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    You have no need to apologize or to ask to please excuse yourself. Your comments are quite welcome, and very much in my mind on par with topic with this thread. The Bible study to me is not just the words printed in the book, but rather the foundation for that study. Your comments are what is needed. They give life to the words we are studying.

    If you wish to discuss traps, or introduce your thoughts on certain traps, then we can discuss them, and make it a full Bible study. There are a couple of things that I would like point out to you. First was your willingness to share openly your anger issues and your lusts. Your not alone. I have them too. But your openness in discussing them, I will touch on in a moment. The second thing I would say to you, is your anger is not a sin against God, unless of course your angry at God. But your anger issues nor your lust is a sin against God. If you have an outburst of anger towards your brother, then you have sinned against your brother. It is your brothers forgiveness you need to seek; But you do not have to seek forgiveness from the Lord.

    Now, back to your openness in bringing forth your sins and weaknesses, and the traps of shame. Jesus told us to forgive one another. There was another scripture I was trying to recall, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. It was something like confess your sins to one another, or something like that. But anyway, confessing our sins to one another should be able to be done without shame. By the time you have overcome your own shame and are ready to confess it, all to often those who are supposed to be there for your support are more interested in the sin and the righteousness of the law rather than your spirit, and would rather use the law to bind you in shame for not being able to overcome the flesh, so that they may have power over you.
     
  14. ezrider

    ezrider Member

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    1 Corinthians 15:33-34
    Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
     
  15. Not_Now.Soon

    Not_Now.Soon Member

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    Thank you for trying to help resolve my issues Ezrider. But I didn't really bring them up to be consoled by them. I brought them up because they are examples of shame that I know. And I can relate to them having an effect on my coming to God, or avoiding going to God out of shame.

    There are many other things that people do even though they know it to be wrong or at least think it as wrong but still do it anyways. Drug and alochol addictions come to mind, but so does laziness and procrastination. Anyone trying to break a habit, fail to start a new habit, or start a diet but repeatedly not stick to it might also have their own aspects to relate to shame, with trying to avoid people that know what you should be doing but aren't doing.

    I do wish you luck in your bible study, and hope you can offer up something that can help Christians either with regarding the times in life we face shame, or with a study to further our understanding with being close to God.

    One other element you've brought up is that the reluctance to be open about what we are ashamed of. The reactions of other people kicking you while your down so to speak. People hide their sins, or like I did, only speak about them in the most general of sence. (Without going into full detail it never seems as bad, if it's bad at all and worth talking about). With this in mind the hiding of one sin I think has as a sign city inticed the measure of another. To hide the shame of having sex before it's proper, our society holds to abortion tightly. Though it holds to abortion for other reasons too, I think shame is the founding foothold that keeps it there, and unrelinquished it's ground as part of our culture.

    Therefore I think shame is a worthwhile topic to discuss, and worth looking at the verses that deal with shame, and their possible interptations. Good luck.
     

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