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should wives submit

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The world regards the idea of wives submitting to their husbands as archaic, repressive, and obnoxious. When unbelievers attend a Christian wedding, they are sometimes appalled at references to that "dirty word" submission, or even worse, obedience. They think that the world has better ideas about marriage. This is funny really. The world has trashed marriage, sex, and the family in a spectacular way. We know that God is the Creator of marriage, not man. He has made it clear in His Word what He expects of both wives and husbands. Our duties are laid out for us, and He always blesses obedience. Faithful Christian marriages are bright lights that defy the lies of a dark, dark world.



But sad to say, many Christian marriages are not the bright lights they should be. Both husbands and wives refuse to obey the Word: husbands fail to take responsibility, and wives behave in disrespectful ways. In spite of the fact that the church has emphasized teaching on marriage and the family, much still needs to be done. And when Christians are disobedient, the Word of God is blasphemed. Titus 2:3-5 makes this very clear. When Christian women are taught to be "discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands," God is glorified. And Paul says here the result is "that the word of God be not blasphemed." Not only is the world guilty of this blasphemy, but we are as well, for our ungodly behavior is by nature blasphemy. So we become guilty of disrespecting God and His Word.

Often women who know better are failing to be respectful, dutiful, submissive, and obedient wives. They make excuses for their behavior, saying things like, "Well, I know it wasn't very respectful, but he was wrong. Or if he would do his part then I will do mine." If the older Christian women don't know how to obey their husbands, how can they teach the younger women? And so the church is sick and passing this infection on to the next generation.

Sometimes wives think they understand respect, but they fail at the obedience part. "What do you mean I have to obey him? I thought that was just for the children."
But returning to the passage in Titus, older women are to teach younger women to be "obedient to their own husbands." Obedience is something that wives should be practicing so they can teach it to others. This means obedience in everything, not just in the big things and not just in the little things. Good Christian wives need to learn to obey. However let me stress this here and now. Because of the calling of the woman in the marriage by her Lord it is imperative that the young women/girls of today in our churches learn how to choose a husband. Not just any man will do and unless she be taught how to recognize a godly young man she may very well be in for a life of misery, failure, divorce or even worse.

It is amazing how much we gloss over the calling we all have in marriage and how much we excuse and overlook. The commands of submission and obedience are only difficult when we disagree with our husbands. If we agree with them and we do what they say, it can hardly be called submission. Submission comes into play when we differ with them over an issue, but we defer to them and willingly give way. The fact that we differ does not mean that we whine and complain before we submit. It may mean that we lovingly and humbly let our opinion known and then we wait for his decision and follow it, always seeking God in prayer for our husband to lead and guide in the way that God would have us go. The fact that he may choose a way that we do not agree with is not reason to resist.

But what about when the husband is in sin or not taking his part in the marriage calling? Husbands love your wives even as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. This is a very important issue. What if the husband has adopted a wrong attitude, not a Christian or is heading in the wrong direction? How is the wife to handle this? Should she submit even when he makes or leads into foolish areas? It all depends. First not all foolish decisions carry the same results.Men are not perfect and need support from their wives even when they fail. Nothing can build the esteem of a man more then to know that his wife is with him even in those times when he makes bad decisions. However if this is a pattern and he is not seeking to meet the charge he has as a husband then she needs to take different action. First she needs to seek out counsel with her pastor and prayer. If he is a godly man he will be able to offer some suggestion and perhaps even speak to the husband. But what if there is no one to turn to or the husband will not listen to godly counsel of a pastor or deacon? Then she needs to be an Abigail. She was not afraid to make arrangements even if without his permission or knowledge. God blessed her abundantly for intervening in this way. She did not stay home waiting for David to attack her household calling herself a submissive wife. She recognized that her husband' was acting the part of a fool, and she exercised wisdom and prudence by going to David herself. Keep in mind that this was not an isolated incident, but a man who practiced foolishness and this time it was so severe that it would cost the lives of the household. In such a case she does need to take action, but remember it may end her marriage. In the case of Abigail she lost her husband to death, while it may have been no big loss she still lost him, so taking action outside the husbands leading should only be with a great deal of prayer and wisdom. Also it should never be a pattern. And any time she does see need to go outside his leading she needs to remember that he is still called to be head and needs be given the respect he is called for even if he does not disserve it.

This same pattern should be followed if a husband is violent, if he has a temper and violent, if he is not providing for the household, or if he is being sexually unfaithful in any way. She needs to take action and where there is violence she needs to leave. A wife is to be a helper to her husband not a blind follower, and this sometimes includes going past him to get help. God blessed Abigail when she did this. In her case it was abundantly clear what was necessary. In other cases it might require pastoral oversight. But obedience and submission to a husband is never absolute. In those cases when there is life threatening issues, or issues where it is clear biblically that we cannot obey, we need to be an Abigail, yet with respect in prayer and humility taking the action needed for the moment. Keep in mind that this must only be done for the most serious issues and never a practice. If we will teach our young women how to choose a mate and raise her to be a godly women then the chances are that she will never face the need for such action to be taken. Her calling is submission and she should be seeking nothing else, but if the need should arise where she has to take action on her own then she needs also to know how to handle it in the Lord with honor. We demonstrate that we serve Him above all others when we realize that our submission and obedience to our husbands is always to be lived out within the boundaries God has wisely set for us. She has a wide path in which she must submit and a narrow one in which she can be an Abigail, and the later should never be sought and hopefully will never be necessary.
http://www.credenda.org/issues/15-3femina.php
 
Yes, a wife should submit and be happy in doing so. When the husband is (submitting) letting Jesus Christ lead him and the wife in turn submits to her husband, that's God's plan for a wonderful marriage. It shadows our relationship with Jesus Christ and God the Father ... The mystery of marriage:

If the husband won't submit to Jesus Christ but he expects his wife to submit to him the headship is violated.

Some have it all mixed up and think it's a matter of human ownership. My husband knows he does not own me nor do I own him. How can that be since we don't even own ourselves??? It's not a matter of cracking the ole whip. It's about love towards one another, giving of ourselves.

If we are to self centered/selfish/rebellious that submit becames a dirty word, how can any of us male or female have a relationship with Jesus Christ???

Love In Jesus Christ!
Justice
 
What matters is the rhetoric. In ancient times women and children were pieces of property. Obviously 'you don't own me' as mentioned by the above poster is a given today except in violent families. (Though it is shameful so many of those continue to exist and pastors, among others, often urge battered spouses to stay in relationships in which they are in danger.)

However, mutual respect and submission to each other is what makes marriages work. The satirist Ambrose Bierce gave this as a definition of marriage in his venemous book The Devil's Dictionary: "An institution consisting of two masters and two slaves, for a grand total of two". We laugh at Bierce's telling black humor there, but it's true to some extent. The trick is to make it work.

Consider, for example, a marriage in which the male is the primary breadwinner and he is offered a job in another region of the country, a better job, which he desperately wants. The wife is glad for her husband's opportunity but doesn't want to move thereby increasing physical distance from her extended family by 1500 miles. 1Corinthians 13:11b states "but when I became a man, I put away childish things" and so we should check our egos when entering marital negotiations over such things. Sometimes 'what I want' and the greater good must be weighed against one another. Should the couple divorce over the issue? I think not. Should the Husband make allowances for his wife's needs in respect for her sacrifice here? Undoubtedly yes. Should she eschew bitterness over the move? No doubt. Should her extended family be supportive? Yes, but the reality is many won't. A woman who has been "Daddy's Girl" or "Mommy's Shadow" as a child will certainly be more challenged by such a situation than one estranged from her parents.

Obviously in ancient times such situations were rare. Whole extended families moved across the deserts with Abraham and Moses (the story of the schleimel Lot settling in Sodom and his rich uncle intervening for him is a nice comic relief to that; no doubt his Mama, Uncle Abe's sister, tried to get him to marry a nice Jewish girl rather than that salty Sodomite tramp, but, oh well...). People were expected to go into their father's trades or maintain their vineyards and that was just the way it was.

Marriages were arranged by parents and love was of a different quality than our romantic notions of today. Life was hardly better though it was simpler.

In advocating the kind of submission as described above, I would certainly caveat that with a clear certainty that the concept "the man ought to be the boss of the family" is a silly hoax, and the quote is almost always spoken by a man who is not the "boss" in his own house as a cry of frustration on his part. One corrolary is that of the Mom in My Big Fat Greek Wedding whereby she expressed her intent to soften her husband's desire to not approve of their daughter's marrying a non-
Greek: "The man may be the head of the family, but the woman is the neck; and the neck may turn the head anyway she wants!"

The problem in marriage is not so often lack of submission as lack of commitment. At the very least, young marriage should be avidly discouraged and young adults should experiecne some form of independence prior to marrying. A young woman who's finished high school and lives with her parents should certainly do all she can to GET OUT of their house even if what it takes is serving Uncle Sam in desert fatigues in Iraq.
 
Excellent posts. I feel blessed to have read them.
 
Lets picture a couple who really loves each other. They would both WANT to make the other happy. Submission most likely wouldn't even come into play because if the husband knows his wife feels strongly about something, if he loves her like the Bible says, it would bother him to just do what he wants, becuase his wife won't be happy (you can submit, but if you're unhappy with a decision, well, you're unhappy you can't control that.) Women aren't retarded, when there's an issue concerning the family or something, a woman will be as self sacrificing and practical as any man. So I think the words are mostly for show, if you choose a mate carefully, it shouldn't be a problem
 
Hey Ana'riel!!! Stop the thread for a minute, we've got an old friend hoppin' in here!

BL
 
Ana'riel.... :biggrin ....nice to see you again.... :wink:

Hey, question, why do so many people...(I guess in this situation wives) freak out when the word "submit" comes into play?
 
Because words like submitting and obeying have child related connotations. It's easy for a wife or husband to hear the words, and misunderstand..it happens a lot (like a husband being a dictator or the wife making herself a doormat) Back in the day a woman had to rely on her husband to make the best decision, but now a woman knows just as much as a man on almost every issue that could possibly be faced in a family. To use the moving example someone already used, if your husband gets a job in another town, and he would make more money(or less money if it's just a job he wants), and/or there's better schools(or worse schools), ect, then both of you should be able to come up with the same decision (more money for the family and /or better schools is better for the family, regardless of how much family I have here, or we should stay here where the family can babysit because you won't make more money and the schools aren't too great, I know things are usually more complicated..these are just examples) I would almost even say you should decide on all issues together to eliminate most of the emotional thinking altogether, but the point is on most issues responsible adults should be able to come up with the best decision for the family. So all I'm saying is that it seems to be mostly words. Honestly if you treat your spouse well and want what's best for them and your kids (because you love your spouse and kids), and are responsible and can think logically, then it's not going to be an issue for either gender. You basically are doing it anyway, unless the husband or wife is a selfish jerk, without harping on the words.
What should be focused on in the Christian community, is how to communicate with your spouse, how to keep the love alive, and how to be a responsible adult (also how to make your kids see you as a united front, not argueing in front of them)...and then you will be following the marriage guidlines anyway.

Wow, I just understood things better writing that :wink: Hello everyone!
 
Justice said:
Yes, a wife should submit and be happy in doing so. When the husband is (submitting) letting Jesus Christ lead him and the wife in turn submits to her husband, that's God's plan for a wonderful marriage. It shadows our relationship with Jesus Christ and God the Father ... The mystery of marriage:

If the husband won't submit to Jesus Christ but he expects his wife to submit to him the headship is violated.

Some have it all mixed up and think it's a matter of human ownership. My husband knows he does not own me nor do I own him. How can that be since we don't even own ourselves??? It's not a matter of cracking the ole whip. It's about love towards one another, giving of ourselves.

If we are to self centered/selfish/rebellious that submit becames a dirty word, how can any of us male or female have a relationship with Jesus Christ???

Love In Jesus Christ!
Justice
:B-fly: Justice,you wrote that beautifully!!! you seem to have the right ideas about God and marriage. We cannot own one another if we are one in the eyes of God. may Your marriage always stay happy and filled with God and great love,in Jesus Christ,amen.
 
my wife obays me and she is quite happy with that like women should submit to their church leaders.

as far as the Bible is concernd there is structure that women was created to be the helper of man.

you can read it in genersis, and the apistles
 
She obeys you? What to you mean, you tell her what to do? Do you ever actually even use the word obey..or does she just do what you ask cause she loves you? And don't you do the things she asks cause you love her? I mean give me a break, do you ask her every day if she's commited to submiting to you? Or is it just a case of the marriage is good, so you don't have any arguement with the scripture?

Women are not just here to be helpers of man. We are each here, male and female, for a purpose. Our own purpose. We're all to help each other. The way the scripture were written has more to do with the times in which they were written.

I always find it amusing when people want to make sure they use the words "obey" and "submit" instaed of focusing on what would make you "submit" anyway
 
willow the wip said:
my wife obays me and she is quite happy with that like women should submit to their church leaders.

as far as the Bible is concernd there is structure that women was created to be the helper of man.

you can read it in genersis, and the apistles

You know that the word "helper" does not hold implications of subordination and inferiority, right? The hebrew word is 'ezer' and most often when it is used in the OT it is in reference to God being our helper.

Also, obey and submit are very different words. To my knowledge to Bible does not tell wives to obey their husbands, but to submit.
 
You know that the word "helper" does not hold implications of subordination and inferiority, right? The hebrew word is 'ezer' and most often when it is used in the OT it is in reference to God being our helper.


Yes but we're also not only here to be helpers
 
saved said:
The world regards the idea of wives submitting to their husbands as archaic, repressive, and obnoxious. When unbelievers attend a Christian wedding, they are sometimes appalled at references to that "dirty word" submission, or even worse, obedience. They think that the world has better ideas about marriage. This is funny really. The world has trashed marriage, sex, and the family in a spectacular way. We know that God is the Creator of marriage, not man. He has made it clear in His Word what He expects of both wives and husbands. Our duties are laid out for us, and He always blesses obedience. Faithful Christian marriages are bright lights that defy the lies of a dark, dark world.



But sad to say, many Christian marriages are not the bright lights they should be. Both husbands and wives refuse to obey the Word: husbands fail to take responsibility, and wives behave in disrespectful ways. In spite of the fact that the church has emphasized teaching on marriage and the family, much still needs to be done. And when Christians are disobedient, the Word of God is blasphemed. Titus 2:3-5 makes this very clear. When Christian women are taught to be "discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands," God is glorified. And Paul says here the result is "that the word of God be not blasphemed." Not only is the world guilty of this blasphemy, but we are as well, for our ungodly behavior is by nature blasphemy. So we become guilty of disrespecting God and His Word.

Often women who know better are failing to be respectful, dutiful, submissive, and obedient wives. They make excuses for their behavior, saying things like, "Well, I know it wasn't very respectful, but he was wrong. Or if he would do his part then I will do mine." If the older Christian women don't know how to obey their husbands, how can they teach the younger women? And so the church is sick and passing this infection on to the next generation.

Sometimes wives think they understand respect, but they fail at the obedience part. "What do you mean I have to obey him? I thought that was just for the children."
But returning to the passage in Titus, older women are to teach younger women to be "obedient to their own husbands." Obedience is something that wives should be practicing so they can teach it to others. This means obedience in everything, not just in the big things and not just in the little things. Good Christian wives need to learn to obey. However let me stress this here and now. Because of the calling of the woman in the marriage by her Lord it is imperative that the young women/girls of today in our churches learn how to choose a husband. Not just any man will do and unless she be taught how to recognize a godly young man she may very well be in for a life of misery, failure, divorce or even worse.

It is amazing how much we gloss over the calling we all have in marriage and how much we excuse and overlook. The commands of submission and obedience are only difficult when we disagree with our husbands. If we agree with them and we do what they say, it can hardly be called submission. Submission comes into play when we differ with them over an issue, but we defer to them and willingly give way. The fact that we differ does not mean that we whine and complain before we submit. It may mean that we lovingly and humbly let our opinion known and then we wait for his decision and follow it, always seeking God in prayer for our husband to lead and guide in the way that God would have us go. The fact that he may choose a way that we do not agree with is not reason to resist.

But what about when the husband is in sin or not taking his part in the marriage calling? Husbands love your wives even as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. This is a very important issue. What if the husband has adopted a wrong attitude, not a Christian or is heading in the wrong direction? How is the wife to handle this? Should she submit even when he makes or leads into foolish areas? It all depends. First not all foolish decisions carry the same results.Men are not perfect and need support from their wives even when they fail. Nothing can build the esteem of a man more then to know that his wife is with him even in those times when he makes bad decisions. However if this is a pattern and he is not seeking to meet the charge he has as a husband then she needs to take different action. First she needs to seek out counsel with her pastor and prayer. If he is a godly man he will be able to offer some suggestion and perhaps even speak to the husband. But what if there is no one to turn to or the husband will not listen to godly counsel of a pastor or deacon? Then she needs to be an Abigail. She was not afraid to make arrangements even if without his permission or knowledge. God blessed her abundantly for intervening in this way. She did not stay home waiting for David to attack her household calling herself a submissive wife. She recognized that her husband' was acting the part of a fool, and she exercised wisdom and prudence by going to David herself. Keep in mind that this was not an isolated incident, but a man who practiced foolishness and this time it was so severe that it would cost the lives of the household. In such a case she does need to take action, but remember it may end her marriage. In the case of Abigail she lost her husband to death, while it may have been no big loss she still lost him, so taking action outside the husbands leading should only be with a great deal of prayer and wisdom. Also it should never be a pattern. And any time she does see need to go outside his leading she needs to remember that he is still called to be head and needs be given the respect he is called for even if he does not disserve it.

This same pattern should be followed if a husband is violent, if he has a temper and violent, if he is not providing for the household, or if he is being sexually unfaithful in any way. She needs to take action and where there is violence she needs to leave. A wife is to be a helper to her husband not a blind follower, and this sometimes includes going past him to get help. God blessed Abigail when she did this. In her case it was abundantly clear what was necessary. In other cases it might require pastoral oversight. But obedience and submission to a husband is never absolute. In those cases when there is life threatening issues, or issues where it is clear biblically that we cannot obey, we need to be an Abigail, yet with respect in prayer and humility taking the action needed for the moment. Keep in mind that this must only be done for the most serious issues and never a practice. If we will teach our young women how to choose a mate and raise her to be a godly women then the chances are that she will never face the need for such action to be taken. Her calling is submission and she should be seeking nothing else, but if the need should arise where she has to take action on her own then she needs also to know how to handle it in the Lord with honor. We demonstrate that we serve Him above all others when we realize that our submission and obedience to our husbands is always to be lived out within the boundaries God has wisely set for us. She has a wide path in which she must submit and a narrow one in which she can be an Abigail, and the later should never be sought and hopefully will never be necessary.
http://www.credenda.org/issues/15-3femina.php

Amen! I agree with most of what you said. truthnluv
 
You know that the word "helper" does not hold implications of subordination and inferiority, right? The hebrew word is 'ezer' and most often when it is used in the OT it is in reference to God being our helper.

Also, obey and submit are very different words. To my knowledge to Bible does not tell wives to obey their husbands, but to submit.

The hebrew word for helpmeet in the context of people is also used for servants. Did you just pick the context you liked better?

"...thy desire shall be to they husband and he shall rule over thee" Gen.3:16 In the hebrew construction this verse is clearly saying that the woman has no more will of her own. It is given over to her husband as a punishment for being decieved.... cf. 1Tim.2:11-14

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I permit not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man. BECAUSE Adam was first formed then Eve. And Adam was not decieved, but the woman being decieved was in the transgression"

Notice that the reasons are not cultural. The reasons are based on creation. They are out of respect because the man was formed first(first born) and punitive because the woman was decieved.

Also because the woman was created specifically for the man. She was created to be his helper, therefore, this is her creative purpose(1Cor.11:3,8,9)

And the bible tells women to submit to their husbands in the same way they submit to the Lord. If this is not obedience, I don't know what is.Eph.5:22-24

In 1Pet.3:1-6 women are told to be in subjection to their own husbands even if the husband obeys not the word. And to take their example from Sarah who obeyed Abraham and called him lord.

And in Titus 2:5 it actually tells women to be obedient to their husbands that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Someone on this thread said that men are the head of women, but women are the neck and they turn the head wherever they want. To that I would ask, since Christ is the head of man does that mean man is the neck and he turns Christ(God the Son) wherever they want. This is convenient, but ridiculous and unbiblical logic.

The head of every man is Christ and the head of every woman is man. When the head does not do what the body wants this is called 'disease.'

truthnluv
 
If God had wanted women to have a mind of their own, he would have given them a penis. Now all the Christian women here, get back into the kitchen!


Edited: To alter my spelling of God. Sorry for any offence, it was surely not intended. I wont say anything about all the insulting comments and phrasing directed toward homosexuals and atheists and Muslims. Oops, I just did. :fadein:
 
Heathen said:
If Gawd had wanted women to have a mind of their own, he would have given them a penis. Now all the Christian women here, get back into the kitchen!
Well my gawd why dont you come on in the kitchen and we'll see can't we amputate your brain. :robot:
 
I don't understand what you're saying Destiny. Once again in legible English, thanks. :fadein:
 
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