should wives submit

[destiny]

I dont live under old testament laws anyway...I follow Jesus.

 

[willow the wip]

Joking aside from before I believe its the wifes duty to submit to her husband as it is the husbands duty to honour and respect her as Christ did to the Church so we should love our wifes as Christ loved the church

 

[Sophistress]

LOL willow the wip, there's a little more to it than that. Have you looked at the verses I provided? The sexism doesn't stop at the submission of women - there is so much more to it than that. So many more sexist quotes.

 

[destiny]

I think if done the biblical way the wife will want to submit....if he is abusive, demanding, controlling, and downright hostile, he might be *crowned* with a frying pan.

 

[willow the wip]

yes to that i have read what you wrote.

the role of marrage is quite simple.

I for one as i have said before am a married man my self my wife obeys me though i would not abuse her.

as we should be summisive to Christ the woman must be submissive to her husband in a Christian Family becouse in some ways it is good for your children.

To lern obediance and to live the way God has required us to live.

My wife will tell you her self if you asked her.

she knows what the bible says so she obeys the Word.

the question was asked

What are the roles of the husband and wife in a family?

http://www.gotquestions.org/roles-husba ... amily.html

this site will explain it the best way.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=7588

I have expressed it in my last post

 

[willow the wip]

I think if done the biblical way the wife will want to submit....if he is abusive, demanding, and downright hostile, he might get crowned with a frying pan.


I said husbands must not abuse their God given possition as head of his wife.
every thing must be done in the Order that God has set things but abusing your wife is no justifcation

the bible dose not teach that we should abuse our wifes it teaches sumisiveness.

that a man should love his wife the way Christ love`s the church do you see your pastor hitting the congregation with a frying pan.

I would think not.


Do you not read what i wrote ?????

 

[destiny]

do you see your pastor hitting the congregation with a frying pan.

I see a lot of control and manipulation in the pulpits...useing the pastor as an axample, isn't a good example.

 

[willow the wip]

i was refaring to an analogy

 

[Quath]

Quath you seem to hate God with a vengance...You dont ever miss a chance to tell us how hateful He is.

I hate God as much as I hate Thor, Easter Bunny or Vishnu. I do not like what the followers of God has done under the name of their god.

I dont live under old testament laws anyway...I follow Jesus.

So do you deny God's instructions from Genesis? Did the snake get uncursed and start walking when Jesus died? If not, then why would God reverse the role of women?

Ok so where might i find this list of yours??

Select few from http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html:

Men are allowed to marry more than one woman but women are not allowed the same option. Men are also allowed to have sex with handmaids.

Women are the property of men in the Bible.

A father may sell his daughter as a slave. (Many read this as a sex slave.)

When a king sins only the best sacrifice will do -- he must offer a male goat to God. But if a commoner sins, a female will do.

Women are dirty and sinful after childbirth, so God prescribes rituals for their purification. If a boy is born, the mother is unclean for 7 days and must be purified for 33 days; but if a girl is born, the mother is unclean for 14 days and be purified for 66 days. This is because, in the eyes of God, girls are twice as dirty as boys.

God lays down the law on menstruating women. Such women are to God both filthy and sinful, and anyone who comes near them is contaminated by them.

If a man has sex with an engaged slave woman, scourge the woman, but don't punish the man. (Even if he raped her?)

God estimates the value of human life in dollars and cents. Of course, to God, females are worth considerably less than males -- but neither are worth much.

The Law of Jealousies. If a man suspects his wife of being unfaithful, he reports it to the priest. The priest then makes her drink some "bitter water." If she is guilty, the water makes her thigh rot and her belly swell. If innocent, no harm done -- the woman is free and will "conceive seed." In any case, "the man shall be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity."

If a man dies and has no son, then his inheritance goes to his daughter. But if he has a son, then the daughter gets nothing. Also no mention is made of wives, sisters, or aunts.

If men make vows, then God expects them to keep them. But a woman cannot make a vow, unless it is "allowed" by her husband or father. If it is "allowed," then she must keep it -- be even so, she is not responsible (her husband or father is).

Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins

If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death."

If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her.

If two men fight and the wife of one grabs the "secrets" of the other, "then thou shalt cut off her hand" and "thy eye shall not pity her."

Jesus says that divorce is permissible when the wife is guilty of fornication. But what if the husband is unfaithful? Jesus doesn't seem to care about that.

Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men.

Paul says "the head of the woman is the man," meaning that the women are to be subordinate to men.

Men are made in "the image and glory of God," but not women; they are "the glory" of men. Paul concludes that women are made from and for men.

Women are commanded by Paul to be silent in church and to be obedient to men. He further says that "if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church."

Paul forbids women to teach or "to usurp authority over" men. Rather they are to "learn [from men] in silence with all subjection [to men]."

Peter orders all wives to be "in subjection" to their husbands.

There is a lot more, but that should suffice to show that the Bible clearly shows women to be lesser beings than men.

Quath

 

[destiny]

So do you deny God's instructions from Genesis? Did the snake get uncursed and start walking when Jesus died? If not, then why would God reverse the role of women?

Quath:
I'm not too sure what the snake has to do with my role as a woman but dont bother explaining.
All you can do is quote old testament rules and legalities and regulations, but God has already recognized how man couldn't keep those rules and legalities so He decided through His mercy to make a better way,****Jesus*****. Now all you ever do Quath is quote old testament laws and tell us all how we are suppose to be under them, and tell us how hateful God is and How God screws up and How God already knew people wouldn't be able to follow those laws but killed those who couldn't anyway.
You cant fool those of us who know we are not bound to those laws in the old testament anymore. You can't grasp the fact that i know Jesus through relationship, not just by letter.
The bible also says that there is neither male nor female if you are in Jesus but you dont seem to quote that one.
I have no problem submitting to someone who is worthy of my submission through their submission to christ.
You cant understand my security in knowing who i am in Him because you see through eyes that have been tarnished by your own perception of a father/son relationship.
Theres a lot beneath the surfice concerning you...I have a feeling theres a lot of wounds in your past that clouds your perception of God....Thats common today.
Did you know that people who had abusive fathers can hardly see God as anything but abusive because they associate God with the male role model they've had.
I know a little about christian psychology, and i'm not saying that this is you for a fact, but i see more than you think i do.
It's not what you think, you've been duped by the enemy by your own self will, bitterness, perverse perception, and willfull blindness.
God has always loved you and I always get the overwhelming feeling that you are very special to Him for some reason...but thats another story that i would love to tell you one day (after) you are saved, which you will be I feel sure. But as for now.....
You call christians crazy wackos who still live by those old testament laws and rules but then you turn around and point your finger at those who are free in Christ for not following them!!
Until you come to the understanding of who God really is, its a no win argument.
I could never have an argument that would appease you.
Remember Paul hated the christians too.

 

[Quath]

The snake comment was because God cursed the snake, woman and man in the gerden of Eden. None of these curses were reversed. Therefore, one of woman's curses was submitting to the rule of their husband. Paul echos this. The list I gave in my previous post had the New Testament stuff at the bottom.

Also, even if the OT stop applying, you have to wonder why God thought so little of women. Why would God think your value was so much less than that of a man?

Theres a lot beneath the surfice concerning you...I have a feeling theres a lot of wounds in your past that clouds your perception of God

I actually have pretty happy memories of Christianity while I was growing up. It was boring sometimes in church, but I liked Sunday school and the picnics. I went to Methodist, Presbyterian and Baptist churches. I really liked my Baptist preacher. He was quite a nice guy. I liked the idea that God was watching over me. My only bad memory was I read about evolution at 8. It made a lot of sense to me and explained a lot of stuff that had been bothering me. However, my grandmother was furious that I thought evolution was true. She kept me up until 2 in the morning arguing with me.

But I started to doubt. After all, what proof did I have of God that I didn't have of Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy. I was never mad or upset. I just wanted to know what was true. At 13, I gave up on praying and decided I just didn't believe. But I was very neutral about religion. I may be sacrilegious at times but that was due to not being religious as opposed to hating religion.

At 21, my favorite uncle decided he wanted nothing to do with me when he found out I was atheist. That was the first time I was hurt by religion. I came out of the closet as atheist then. (I realized that I was living a lie by pretending that I believed in God.) My father basically said he was agnostic. My mother still tries to convert me though she rejects about half of the Bible. My grandmother sent me book after book trying to convert me.

So I read the books and looked to show logically why I didn't believe in any of this. That is when I really discovered how much of my life was shaped by religion. THis was about 4 years ago.

I read about a guy that killed his family because his daughter got into the school play. He rationalized that she was going to become an actress and turn from God. So he decided to kill them all so they went to heaven. Then he asked for forgiveness and killed himself. Now by Christian rules he did the right thing. He is now in heaven with his family and doesn't have to worry about his cildren going to hell.

I saw that I could be legally discriminated against. I saw that in colonial America I could be killed for my lack of belief. I met a woman that had been raped over and over as a child. She always prayed to Jesus to help her, but nothing happened. She just felt that Jesus was too busy helping people find their car keys and pick good lottery numbers to have helped her.

Then I started reading the Bible and was shocked. How could anyone every say that rape, murder and genocide was a good thing. Yet say it is for God and it is good. Then I understood why we had the Crusades and Inquisition and Kamakazi pilots. People will do the most horrible things for their god.

So what you may sense is my sadness at how people follow beliefs that can be used to start wars and enslave people. The closest I can relate it to is imagine how you feel about Muslim girls being beaten for showing a foot in public. I feel so bad for the girl and I imagine that most Christians feel that way as well. Yet I feel that way about people that follow the scriptures of Christianity too closely as well.

Quath

 

[destiny]

Also, even if the OT stop applying, you have to wonder why God thought so little of women. Why would God think your value was so much less than that of a man?

I dont see that God doesn't value me, i have reaped too many of His blessings to ever feel that way.
I dont interpret scripture as you do because i have an understanding of God through relationship. Maybe thats why theres no sting in it for me.
I have experienced the goodness of God and I have experienced being used by God to lead in certain situations when there was no man who would step up to the plate. I have absolutely NO doubt what so ever that it was God who put me in those situations.
I have had supernatural encounters that cant be explained away or stolen through someone telling me according to scripture I am less than a man.
That just doesn't hold water for me.
You kinda missed some of what I was saying to you in my post but thats no big deal.
You have had some very pee poor representations of christianity in your life, as most of us have and will continue to have as long as we are human.
I still dont believe that you are an atheist, i'm sorry no offense but i'm just not buying.
People do crazy things like murder all the time in the name of God, thats nothing new under the sun.
Those who truly know God know eneough about his characteristics and personality to know he doesn't ask such things as that from people.
Thats where satan comes in, but thats a whole other can of worms.
At any rate, you'll know the truth one day i have no doubt.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

Quath, I hope you read this, because I felt the need to reply to your post.

The snake comment was because God cursed the snake, woman and man in the gerden of Eden.

If you'll check, God only curses the snake. He punishes the man and woman, but there is a difference... and a symbolic one to boot.

Also, even if the OT stop applying, you have to wonder why God thought so little of women.

I don't see where God took less value in women. The laws concerning men and women are sometimes different and the man was the head of his family, but women were valued as people, not property, which was very abnormal in the context that the Hebrew people lived in (I think Egypt was the only other society in that context to follow in that footstep).

My only bad memory was I read about evolution at 8. It made a lot of sense to me and explained a lot of stuff that had been bothering me. However, my grandmother was furious that I thought evolution was true. She kept me up until 2 in the morning arguing with me.

Well, I don't know the details of that, but I would venture to say that your grandmother probably wasn't as educated about evolution as she could have been. I find that a lot in Christians - take the King James Version for example. I know many good Christian people who think it is the only version that is inspired... but the truth is that its more because of their holding on to tradition and limited education on the subject than anything else. Same thing with evolution. Many Christians, just like the general population, don't understand evolution all that well. I mean, if they truly understood it, who could doubt it? Now granted, I don't accept macroevolution, but I wouldn't argue with you until 2 in the morning about it.

But I started to doubt. After all, what proof did I have of God that I didn't have of Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy.

That's a good question. One that not enough Christians are willing to ask themselves.

At 13, I gave up on praying and decided I just didn't believe.

And now that you have seen research that shows prayer - even for people that don't know you are praying for them - has a big influence on others, how do you feel about that conclusion?

At 21, my favorite uncle decided he wanted nothing to do with me when he found out I was atheist. That was the first time I was hurt by religion.

Sounds like you were hurt by your uncle, not religion. Obviously your uncle was misguided, and that's what hurt you.

My grandmother sent me book after book trying to convert me.

Sounds like she loved you... if she didn't, then she wouldn't have cared.

read about a guy that killed his family because his daughter got into the school play... Now by Christian rules he did the right thing. He is now in heaven with his family and doesn't have to worry about his cildren going to hell.

Where in the world do you get that? The guy was misguided big time, and that's sad and not Christian. Killing your family is going by the Christian rules? No, no, no. How does that fit into Jesus freely dying so that people could freely choose Him?

I met a woman that had been raped over and over as a child. She always prayed to Jesus to help her, but nothing happened. She just felt that Jesus was too busy helping people find their car keys and pick good lottery numbers to have helped her.

It is so sad that people do those kinds of things to others. It makes me mad just reading that this person I never met was raped - and as a child no less! But it goes back to free will. I wish that the people who did me wrong in my life were zapped by a bolt of lightning. I wish my buddy Matt who was raped as a child and beaten with a horse whip by his grandfather could have had the childhood that I had. But those things happened. And they happened because sinful people did them.

God is real, and I think He is greatly hurt when those things happen, just like they are happening as I type this all over the world. But Jesus said this, and its a comfort to me, "Do not fear those who can harm the body, but those who can harm the spirit."

Of course, I don't mind the fact that in the end God will judge those people for what they did.

Then I started reading the Bible and was shocked. How could anyone every say that rape, murder and genocide was a good thing. Yet say it is for God and it is good.

God hates rape, murder, and genocide. I think you were confused when reading the Old Testament, probably because you didn't have all the facts. It's easy to feel sad for the Caananites who God ordered destroyed until you learn that they historically practiced child sacrifice like crazy.

Let's say Al Queada existed back then. Would you have a problem with God if he told the Hebrew people to wipe them out? Or the nazis? But you probably would if you didn't know anything about the Nazis... if you thought they were just another people group.

Then I understood why we had the Crusades and Inquisition and Kamakazi pilots. People will do the most horrible things for their god.

The crusades took place because monarchies assumed divine backing and a heavenly-set social structure. The inquisition occurred for power and it truly took Jesus on the cross and tortured others in ways even worse in His name. Kamakazi pilots were so full of honor and fear of dishonor, that they were willing to give their lives for their family's name. All these things are bad, and all of them are misguided. I think you would agree with that.

So what you may sense is my sadness at how people follow beliefs that can be used to start wars and enslave people.

Certainly.

Yet I feel that way about people that follow the scriptures of Christianity too closely as well.

Closely, or incorrectly? I know a lot of people who learn false things from the Bible and they believe in terrible things. That is sad. But I think that you may be one of them. And I think that because you learned from the Bible that there is no god. And that's a terrible thing.

I've been where you are at, I have thought the way you have thought. And I am here to tell you that there is a God, that He does love you, and that He will bring justice to the world. I have a relationship with Him... albeit I've not been doing my part lately. But read the following words very closely:

I think you have been led to a conclusion that is based on misunderstandings. You've come to your belief based on facts that aren't true... evidence that's been tampered with. PM me and let's talk - there's a reason you've been posting on this forum and I would like to share with you about my life and how I came from where you are and have been to where I am today.

I will pray for you, and you can trust that it will have an effect. It's been scientifically shown to! ;)

Sooner than Later I Hope,

BL