Should women 'really' be silent in the Church?

[Imagican]

Was Paul right or wrong?

 

[Sara929]

define "church" :-D

 

[Mac0486]

well, the bible is without error. i agree w/ Sara though. I'm pretty sure that in Paul's letters that there were 2 words translated as "church." One of them could be compared to more of a bible study group (Sunday School if you will) and the other "Big Church."

I just remember hearing that sometime recently so it may not hold much water as of now.

 

[Adams son]

define "church" :-D

That group of people that have the Spirit of God in them.

I think Paul meant that women should not have authoritative teaching roles in church over men (males). I do not think he really meant they should completely keep their mouth shut. There were also female prophets speaking in the church in those days. The issue seems to be about divine order based on Eve's curse and such. David was not a Levite so he had no priestly authority and could not be a priest. In the same way, Paul sees a similar divine order between men and women. It has nothing do with "better' or "worse" genders but about God's order..... for now.... and until this chaos is fixed by God and then there will be no more such authority structure.

God is a he. Creation is a she. Creation is to submit to the he. Jesus is a he. The church is a she. The church is to submit to the he. Eve sinned and so God told Eve that her husband would rule over her. It is always the same authority structure. While we are in this world, these problems endure just as sickness and death endures for now. The Adams still have to work and toil, the Eves still have to suffer in childbirth and have men rule over them.

No I do not personally believe that Joyce Meyers should be preaching as she does.

On the common sense level, we know that women are more emotional and subjective than men. These emotional passions do not work too well when you are objectively trying to divide the truth. Emotions have to do with wants and desires. Truth has nothing to do with our desires. It just is and it does not bow to our wants and desires. Generally speaking, and if we are honest with ourselves, we know that this is the reality of things.

Let us never forget the women who stood faithful at the cross when all the men ran away. Let us never forget the first person Jesus met when he rose from the dead. It was not an apostle and it was not a man. It was Mary Magdalene and then the other women. This should tell us a lot about how God and Jesus view women.... with great respect and honor and dignity.

 

[Sara929]

No I do not personally believe that Joyce Meyers should be preaching as she does.

Preaching... so thats what she's doing up there! :-?

 

[Heidi]

There are 3 incontrovertible aspects of our creation; 1)God is the head of Christ 2)Christ is the head of man,3)man is the head of woman. In Paul's day, it was the wish of men for women to be silent in church. Paul could only speak from what he understood about the WORLD in his day. He did not know what a rocketship or television, for example, was. But in today's world, it is the wish of men that women not be silent in church. Therefore, spiritually, the most IMPORTANT point Paul was making is that women should subject themselves to men. I believe that Paul is right when he says that a woman should cover her head and be silent in church out of respect for God and her husband. But, it is still better to honor one's husband in regard to legal matters of the church than to cause disunity in the home by not following the dictates of today's standards set by the clergy.

What most women in today's society do not realize is that being subject to our husbands in NO WAY makes us inferior. We simply have different gifts and roles that we were created to follow. If I have the gift of service, for example, would God consider that gift inferior to the gift of preaching? Heavens no! There is a NEED in the world for service! As Paul said, the bodies of believers are members of Christ's body and the hand or foot is no less necessary than another member of the body. I believe that in the near future, we will see the problems associtaed with women being more concerned about OUR rights, than loving our husbands. We are already seeing the negative affects in divided familes, affairs in the workplace, temptation if the workplace, selfish ambition in the workplace, and the defiance of men in the clergy. Why would a woman WANT to be a clergy member if not to glorify herself?

Jesus said that the GREATEST commandment is LOVE. The strength and faith it takes for a woman to sacrifice worldly recognition and instead give it to her husband is the epitome of genuine love. We Christian women have the opportunity to give that to our husbands which is the greatest sacrifice we can make for him. We will then be blessed not only with the glories of God's love, but with loving and unified families as well. Therefore, the most IMPORTANT question we women can ask ourselves concerning propriety is; are we doing this to honor our husbands or are we doing this to honor ourselves?

 

[Imagican]

There are 3 incontrovertible aspects of our creation; 1)God is the head of Christ 2)Christ is the head of man,3)man is the head of woman. In Paul's day, it was the wish of men for women to be silent in church. Paul could only speak from what he understood about the WORLD in his day. He did not know what a rocketship or television, for example, was. But in today's world, it is the wish of men that women not be silent in church. Therefore, spiritually, the most IMPORTANT point Paul was making is that women should subject themselves to men. I believe that Paul is right when he says that a woman should cover her head and be silent in church out of respect for God and her husband. But, it is still better to honor one's husband in regard to legal matters of the church than to cause disunity in the home by not following the dictates of today's standards set by the clergy.

What most women in today's society do not realize is that being subject to our husbands in NO WAY makes us inferior. We simply have different gifts and roles that we were created to follow. If I have the gift of service, for example, would God consider that gift inferior to the gift of preaching? Heavens no! There is a NEED in the world for service! As Paul said, the bodies of believers are members of Christ's body and the hand or foot is no less necessary than another member of the body. I believe that in the near future, we will see the problems associtaed with women being more concerned about OUR rights, than loving our husbands. We are already seeing the negative affects in divided familes, affairs in the workplace, temptation if the workplace, selfish ambition in the workplace, and the defiance of men in the clergy. Why would a woman WANT to be a clergy member if not to glorify herself?

Jesus said that the GREATEST commandment is LOVE. The strength and faith it takes for a woman to sacrifice worldly recognition and instead give it to her husband is the epitome of genuine love. We Christian women have the opportunity to give that to our husbands which is the greatest sacrifice we can make for him. We will then be blessed not only with the glories of God's love, but with loving and unified families as well. Therefore, the most IMPORTANT question we women can ask ourselves concerning propriety is; are we doing this to honor our husbands or are we doing this to honor ourselves?

From reading your entire post it is obvious that you have an understanding far beyond that of most women or men. I am confused as to the meaning of the first paragraph though. You indicate that because the world has changed that the meaning behind scripture must change also. I hope that you are not saying that the Word had changed because of the 'falling away' of man and this is just my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say.

Regardless of the teachings of the Church or other men, the Word of God has not changed since being written, only the meaning of much of it as defined by men, (and women). And if the liberalism of men is an indication of their desire to allow women to teach in the Church this is still no excuse not to live up to our instruction.

Thank you for your post Heidi. I always enjoy reading the 'truth' and find comfort in the fact that there are still those that believe in it.

 

[Rose of Sharon]

Paul means that women should keep silent 'while' the teaching is going on, not to ask questions and interrupt . If they have questions , they should ask their husbands at home. The reason Paul said this is because the women at that time were doing just this.

 

[Heidi]

There are 3 incontrovertible aspects of our creation; 1)God is the head of Christ 2)Christ is the head of man,3)man is the head of woman. In Paul's day, it was the wish of men for women to be silent in church. Paul could only speak from what he understood about the WORLD in his day. He did not know what a rocketship or television, for example, was. But in today's world, it is the wish of men that women not be silent in church. Therefore, spiritually, the most IMPORTANT point Paul was making is that women should subject themselves to men. I believe that Paul is right when he says that a woman should cover her head and be silent in church out of respect for God and her husband. But, it is still better to honor one's husband in regard to legal matters of the church than to cause disunity in the home by not following the dictates of today's standards set by the clergy.

What most women in today's society do not realize is that being subject to our husbands in NO WAY makes us inferior. We simply have different gifts and roles that we were created to follow. If I have the gift of service, for example, would God consider that gift inferior to the gift of preaching? Heavens no! There is a NEED in the world for service! As Paul said, the bodies of believers are members of Christ's body and the hand or foot is no less necessary than another member of the body. I believe that in the near future, we will see the problems associtaed with women being more concerned about OUR rights, than loving our husbands. We are already seeing the negative affects in divided familes, affairs in the workplace, temptation if the workplace, selfish ambition in the workplace, and the defiance of men in the clergy. Why would a woman WANT to be a clergy member if not to glorify herself?

Jesus said that the GREATEST commandment is LOVE. The strength and faith it takes for a woman to sacrifice worldly recognition and instead give it to her husband is the epitome of genuine love. We Christian women have the opportunity to give that to our husbands which is the greatest sacrifice we can make for him. We will then be blessed not only with the glories of God's love, but with loving and unified families as well. Therefore, the most IMPORTANT question we women can ask ourselves concerning propriety is; are we doing this to honor our husbands or are we doing this to honor ourselves?

From reading your entire post it is obvious that you have an understanding far beyond that of most women or men. I am confused as to the meaning of the first paragraph though. You indicate that because the world has changed that the meaning behind scripture must change also. I hope that you are not saying that the Word had changed because of the 'falling away' of man and this is just my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say.

Regardless of the teachings of the Church or other men, the Word of God has not changed since being written, only the meaning of much of it as defined by men, (and women). And if the liberalism of men is an indication of their desire to allow women to teach in the Church this is still no excuse not to live up to our instruction.

Thank you for your post Heidi. I always enjoy reading the 'truth' and find comfort in the fact that there are still those that believe in it.

I know it can sound confusing but what I mean is that because today's standards contradict the bible, then it is far better to honor our husbands today, then to contradict the standards set by today's clergy. An example is Paul's words concerning eating food sacrificed to idols. Because we Christians no longer worship false idols, then it is meaningless whether we eat meat that other people have sacrificed to idols. Therefore Paul says, do not let our beliefs be a stumbling block to others if eating THEIR meat which is sacrificed will cause them to sin. Therefore, if we women are asked to speak in church, either by the clergy, or by our husbands, then that priority should be first. Does that clarify my post better?

 

[Heidi]

I also want to add that women are subject to men because we came from men, but as Paul said, men were born of women. In this respect, we are to submit to each other. If a man loves his wife like Christ loves the church, then what woman would not WANT to submit to him? Such unions are truly blessed because, not only are they responding in the manner in which God created us, but it does nothing but perpetuate love between them. Therefore, Paul's stated propriety should indeed be honored because God has a REASON why women are to act in this manner. Unfortunately, it is not honored in today's society for many reasons, one of which, is that in past generations society has misunderstood the roles of men and taken advantage of their position over women. Therefore, it takes even greater faith and discernment for we women to not over react to that previous oppression and see the words in the bible as timeless.

 

[Imagican]

Yes Heidi it does. And you are absolutely right to an extent. We are certainly not to cause our brother to stumble but we are also to follow our teachings. I do understand exactly what you stated and do agree that in order to gather and unify rather than cause derision that oft times we choose to follow rather than lead. I fear that this can cause a laxity that can, at times, be very destructive to 'true' following of the Word. It is amazing how often in modern times the will of the people wins out over the will of God.

Thanks again for your insightful post. Enjoyed reading it.

 

[Heidi]

I agree, Imaican. But it does require widsom and discernment from the Spirit. If, for example, women start wearing hats because they are SUPPOSED to rather than out of an understanding of why God wants us to do that, then it becomes a law-based action rather than a spirit-based one. As Paul said, if we obey ANY law without love, then it is meaningless. Women are to wear hats & be silent in church because they understand what Paul means when he says it honors God, not simply to show what good Christians we are. The law can only be obeyed by the Spirit, not with the will which is what the Jews still do.

 

[Imagican]

I agree, Imaican. But it does require widsom and discernment from the Spirit. If, for example, women start wearing hats because they are SUPPOSED to rather than out of an understanding of why God wants us to do that, then it becomes a law-based action rather than a spirit-based one. As Paul said, if we obey ANY law without love, then it is meaningless. Women are to wear hats & be silent in church because they understand what Paul means when he says it honors God, not simply to show what good Christians we are. The law can only be obeyed by the Spirit, not with the will which is what the Jews still do.

Once again you show your wisdom and understanding. You are absolutely right. This point is one that has destroyed much of the 'true' worship in the Church. We should certain know and understand the REASON that we are to obey the will of God, not just follow teachings for the sake of following.

And I notice that you use the word LOVE in much of your postings. God IS love. A love that we as mere mortals will NEVER be able to fully understand. His love is so great that; while we were yet sinners, He sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON to die for us. What a sacrifice for so many that will choose to ignore. God doesn't 'just' love us, God IS love. I see that you understand these things.

Yes, both I and II Corinthians were letters to the people of Corinth in which Paul tried his best to explain that their worship was in vain without the purpose being clear: LOVE. They were a people much like our own that had been brought the Spirit of Christ yet felt compelled to continue being 're-saved' instead of growing in Christ.

I have often witnessed in the Churches that when there is an alter call the same people run to the front over and over. I condemn NO ONE for their need to receive salvation but I question WHY anyone would want to re-crucify our Savior over and over. That 'feeling' of accepting Christ into ones heart is only the 'Beginning' of salvation. After that, it's time to read and practice. We read to understand God's will. And what is His will? You, Heidi, obviously already know the answer to this question. LOVE.

You are completely correct. EVERYTHING that we do should be done in love. I am no more capable of understanding the Love of God than anyone else. I am flesh. I am a sinner. But, without a beginning in the understanding, nothing else that I can do will please God. We are not to do for others because this is commanded of us - we are to do for others because we love them and want what's best for them. Even our enemies, (wow, what a tuff one this is).

I will not deny for one second my weaknesses. I have a L O N G way to go to even get a taste of the understanding of God's Love. But with practice it becomes clearer and clearer. And yes folks, that's how you learn - practice. Even though as flesh we will never be able to offer the Love of God, but the harder we try, the more we will understand it.

Thanks again for your words of understanding Heidi. Often I get discouraged. I am nothing but a mere mortal, a falable soul with all the same doubts and frailty of every other. I often have my doubts in my ability to offer God what He demands. But, this doesn't stop me from trying to understand His will. And when I see that there truly are others that understand this also, it is certainly reassuring that there is 'truth' and that I am not the only one that sees it.

 

[Imagican]

I didn't start this thread to hurt women's feelings I was only curious if there would be any that understood what it means. Women were not given the commands that they were to hold them down but to give them their place. This is not a readily accepted concept in todays society that teaches that we can be anything that we choose. This is certainly what society teaches and enourages but is it really that surprising that the 'world' would teach us to follow the 'world' rather than God?

There is NO DISHONOR in servitude. Christ was our ultimate example and tells us that He, (or she), that would be greatest among us would be He, (or she), that serves their brother, (or sister).

If slaves were commanded to be content in their social standing how hard could it possibly be for the rest of mankind? Each of us is commanded to do what it is prudent. No doubt that there will be those that choose their will instead of God's. This is a bad example and one that the Church often times seems to accept and condone. This is wrong. As our teachers, they should never bow to our will. Children teaching their parents? I think not, and if this is the case in some families, then I offer that these families are disfunctional; just as a Church that doesn't teach it's followers the 'truth' and allows them to follow their own will instead of the will of God, would be.

 

[Heidi]

Excellent points, Imagican.

 

[Free]

The question isn't whether "Paul was right or wrong," but "what was Paul saying?" Paul was right in what he said, but what exactly was he saying?

 

[Eve777]

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


I read it to mean that a woman should not try to tell the preacher what he should teach or preach in church.....because God set man as head of the local assembly....just as Christ is the head of all the church, man was made the final say in the local church..

It doesn't mean women can't have input, we can, we just can't try to take over from the preacher who is over the church we attend..... we are under his authority.

If you don't like what he is preaching, you can call a board meeting and discuss it or leave.....but you never call a preacher out in public....no woman should assume authority over a congregation. God put man in charge...and if you have the right man, (one who is called by God) there should be no problem..

I don't think for a minute God did it this way because he felt women were inferior in any way. Things just flow smoother when a man is in charge...even his voice carries more authority....his very presence has more authority than a woman...

Ever tried to get you money back on something you bought? Who does a better job on that? My husband is much better at that than I am. They listen to him. Even women cashiers pay more attention if a man complains..that's just the way it is....we, as women, have to live with it....and I for one, don't mind...I want my husband to stand up and assume the authority of our household....I hate it when I see a woman dominating her husband and children....just ain't right, somehow....

 

[Heidi]

Eve, i don't think Paul is talking about women standing up in front of the congregation & opposing the clergy because not even men are supposed to do that. I think Paul means exactly what he said. I also agree with you that this in NO way takes away our identity. It's simply honoring God's creation if we do it from our hearts.

 

[Free]

Here is something for you all to think about regarding 1 Tim. 2:9-15.

"9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

Let's look at the context. This particular context isn't necessarily the biblical context, but rather the social context, the reason Paul wrote what he did.

As 1 Tim. 1:3 points out, Timothy is in Ephesus which is where the fertility goddess, Artemis, was worshipped. The priestesses who led her worship had the saving knowledge and only gave it to those who submitted to them. Men who served in the temple were castrated and made subject to the temple.

To ask for blessing on crops, livestock, and family, worshippers would place fine clothes, jewelry, and other costly gifts on the statue of Artemis. Women would also ask for help in conception, pregnancy, and delivery.

And this fits the passage better than anything I have ever heard. The Artemis cult was infiltrating the Church in Ephesus. Paul says woman was deceived first, lowering women's status to that of men and proving that they have no special divine insight that men don't have. Paul tells the women to dress modestly, not in the clothes of the Artemis cult.

Now teaching. The women were used to having the divine revelation and spiritual authority over men. Paul simply won't let women teach until they submit themselves to learning the Faith in silence. This is not a general statement that women can't ever teach, Paul is simply speaking to a very specific situation to put the women in their rightful place, as equals with men, and then they can teach.

To further support this view, 1 Tim. 2:15 is a very odd verse that really doesn't fit any other view. Women will be kept safe in childbearing by turning to Christ, not Artemis. Faith in Christ, not costly gifts for Artemis.

That is the most logical and reasonable explanation of that passage. It fits everything right down to verse 15.

 

[Heidi]

That's an interesting point, Free. But what i think Paul is saying is that women must not be GRANTED authority over men in positions of teaching. A woman is still free to give her opinion if asked for it, but not to see herself has a final worldly authority. Even if a woman is right & her husband or the clergy are wrong, she must remain silent unless asked for her opinion.