Son of Man coming in clouds of "judgement?"

Discussion in 'Preterism Discussions' started by Dan00, Jan 1, 2014.

  1. Sinthesis

    Sinthesis Member

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    What about those who don't eagerly wait for Him? Won't He appear a second time for them as well? Of course He will, but their experience of His second coming will be different from those who are eager to see Him. Think salvation vs. judgement.

    When I say Jesus also came circa 70AD, it is only valid in a very narrow sense that depends on accepting His first visitation (Daniel's 70th week) as being limited to the Jews [Matt 15:24]. Given the understanding that in a certain sense Jesus was first sent only to the Jews, and then later (after Stephen's martyrdom) was 'sent' to the Gentiles through the gospel by His Apostolic Church, we can apply the same pattern to see Jesus' coming in judgment was first against the world of Temple Judism (our past), with the anticipation He will come again later for salvation/judgment to the rest of the world (our future)[Rom 1:16, 2:9-19].

    The broader point is that there is not a single universal frame of reference to describe Jesus' visitations. Think Einstein vs. Newton.
     
  2. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Jesus comes a second time at the end of the age.

    The resurrection takes place for all, at His coming.

    He will raise us up on the last Day.

    The Day of the Lord.

    That Day is laid out in Zechariah 12.

    The city is surrounded.

    The Lord strikes the nations that come against Jerusalem.

    He is seen, and mourned by the Jews.

    This is not a description of 70 AD, although both events takes place in Jerusalem.


    JLB
     
  3. Deborah13

    Deborah13 Member

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    I think maybe Zech 14:2 is AD70 when the Roman Empire came against Jerusalem. And continued for about another 60-70 yrs. jasoncran had mentioned that after AD70 some were allowed to return to the city but the wars with the Romans continued. During that time they continued to persecute Christians. Eventually the Jews were forbidden to go near the city the Romans in the meantime had killed many Jews and Christians. As you know this went on for some time against the Christians that would not bow down to the emperors as gods.
    Zech 14:3 - could be talking about the destruction of the Roman Empire, which had 10 nations at one point, and then six or seven, I think.

    Theologians have seen these verses very differently for centuries.
     
  4. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. Zechariah 14:1-3

    Do you feel like The Lord fought against the Roman soldiers, Deb ?
     
  5. Deborah13

    Deborah13 Member

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    I think He eventually destroyed the Roman Empire, who killed many Jews and Christian Jews and Gentiles.
    The Lord used many nations, such as the Assyrians and Babylonians in judgment against Israel. He eventually destroyed those nations.
    I believe that any nation who comes against God's holy people, the people who are His in Christ, will be destroyed.
    His people, His Body (Jew and Gentile), will never be overcome by the world.
     
  6. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Do you feel that Zechariah 14:1-3 refers to the year 70 AD and The Lord came back at that time ?

    That scripture says clearly -

    Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

    Here it says The Lord will fight against those nations.

    It does not say he is bringing those nations to judge His people, but rather that He Himself is fighting against those nations.

    Then He goes on to say His people will flee. Meaning He has made away for them to escape.

    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:3-5

    Did the Jews escape in 70 AD?

    It goes on to say -

    11 The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

    Did this happen in 70AD?

    I think you know that the language here is nothing like what happened in 70 AD.

    JLB
     
  7. Deborah13

    Deborah13 Member

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    It is very clear to me that God used the soldiers of the Roman Empire to destroy Jerusalem. Later the Roman Empire was destroyed. Just like God used the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem. Later He destroyed the Babylonians.

    I answered you the best that I can right now. If the best of the theologians over hundreds of years have had problems with this scripture, I hardly think that I can know for sure!

    But if you are saying that Zechariah is out in the future then how do you explain that it is talking about the second temple built by Iddo, Zechariah, and all those who were the remnant that returned from Babylonian captivity?

    It's a prophet speaking, they jump back and forth through time and comparisons. That is really obvious in Isaiah.
     
  8. jasoncran

    jasoncran Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/revolt1.html
     
  9. JLB

    JLB Member

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    It seems you have decided that these verses in Zechariah 14 are referring to 70 AD.

    3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

    • And fight against those nations...
    In this verse we see that there is an assembly of nations, such as the united nations, arrayed against Jerusalem.

    • And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
    In these verses there is very detailed, specific language that also refers to a previous event, as well as naming an earth quake and a specific kings name.

    This is a literal event
    , whereby Jesus returns and literally stands on the mount of Olives, as well as the saints of God coming with Him, which is clear Day of the Lord language.

    • It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
    This is the same language as he used in His Olivet Discourse as He explained to His Disciples His Coming at the end of the age.

    the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,

    And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The Lord is one," And His name one. 10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin's Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananeel to the king's winepresses. 11 The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


    • ...the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The Lord is one," And His name one.
    How many Jews confessed Jesus as Lord in 70 AD?

    • ...But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
    Was Jerusalem inhabited safely in 70 AD?

    • And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
    Were the Roman soldiers struck down by The Lord, so that their flesh dissolved from their bodies while they stood on their feet?

    Here is what Paul said will happen in the Day of The Lord -
    ...and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    I believe if the Lord took vengeance upon someone with flaming fire, their flesh would dissolve from their bodies while they were still standing.

    Is that what happened to the roman Soldiers in 70 AD?

    How about this Deb -

    And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


    Did the Roman Soldiers who came against Jerusalem, go up to Jerusalem and keep the feast of Tabernacles, year after year?


    Deb, I think you can see that Zechariah 14 has nothing what so ever to do with the year 70 AD.

    This is an event that come at the end of the age when the lord Jesus physically returns to Earth, as revelation 19 teaches.

    11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16


    JLB














     
  10. turnorburn

    turnorburn Member

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    Wait a minute we've forgotten something a verse a very important verse that comes after verse 3..

    Zechariah 43:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    Has that mount cleaved in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west and left a very great valley; and half the mountain shall remove toward the north and half of it toward the south?

    tob
     
  11. Deborah13

    Deborah13 Member

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    This is some of what I said in my first post about this #18.

    God continuing to fight for His remnant and all those of His Body (v. 3 is a difficult verse), and the future coming of our Lord. From this point I think it is future.
    Zechariah compares to Matthew 24. It's been partially fulfilled.
     
  12. Deborah13

    Deborah13 Member

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    Wow, JLB Do you really think I am going to sort that out?

    How about asking one or two questions at a time with supporting scripture, that would be helpful to me..

    Thanks :nod
     
  13. turnorburn

    turnorburn Member

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    Everyone one knows that when the Lord puts his foot down on the mount of olives you can turn out the lights because the party is over..

    Zechariah 43:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    So lets finish it out..

    Zechariah 43:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

    6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

    7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

    8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

    9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    tob
     
  14. DaveRC

    DaveRC Member

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    Christ is claiming deity in Matthew 16:28, 23:39, 24:30, 26:64, and Revelation 1:7.

    Jews know from Old Testament writings such as found in Isaiah 13:13-17, 19:1-4, 34:4-5, and Ezekiel 32:7-11 that only Yahweh comes in the clouds of Glory and judges nations.

    The original Greek used in these NT verses is horao optomai. It is strewn throughout the NT with metaphoric connotation. It never means to literally see with one`s ocular physical eyesight. It means to spiritually discern. To experience. To see with one`s mind or one`s conscience not with one's eyesight.

    Go over to biblehub. Search these five NT verses, click on "Greek", and then click on its Strong`s Concordance Number to get its proper definition.

    In Matthew 16:28, Christ is saying to His disciples that some of them will live to "see" Christ`s deity demonstrated in judgment on Old Covenant Israel in A.D. 70 see Matthew 21:43 and Matthew 23:29-36.

    Another thing the original Greek word for "mourn" also means "torn" and "blow" (as in a physical strike or blow).

    The Olivet Discourse is using this same exaggerated language from earlier OT passages. Its a literary form to convey the stark realities facing a nation(s) fallen under God's judgment. It is just a literary form used by the A.N.E cultures and civilizations.. every one from the Egyptians to the Babylonians used very similar idioms and hyperboles when describing gods and kingdoms.

    Look up how David describes his deliverance from King Saul in 2 Samuel 22:7-16 and Psalm 18:6-15?

    How about Jerusalem`s deliverance from the Assyrian king, Sennacherib in Micah 1:1-9?

    Sounds very similar to most of Revelation or Zechariah 14:4, don't it?

    Sadly, Christians are failing to see that the Old Testament is written for our ensample and should be used in how interpret similar passages in the New Testament. The Old Testament is our measuring ruler and our guide. And sadly, Christians arent familiar with the original Hebrew and Greek text and how it is used by the original authors. Example "see" aka horao optomai in Matthew 16:28, 23:39, 24:30, 26:64, and Revelation 1:7.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  15. DaveRC

    DaveRC Member

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    Preterism - prophecy is written mostly in literary and metaphoric form

    Futurism - prophecy is written mostly in literal form
     
  16. DaveRC

    DaveRC Member

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    Horaó optomai according to Biblehub

    3708. horaó
    Strong's Concordance
    horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
    Original Word: ὁράω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: horaó
    Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
    Short Definition: I see, look upon, experience
    Definition: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.
    HELPS Word-studies
    3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

    [The aorist form (eidon), is discussed at 1492 /eídō, "see." The future tense, and middle-passive form, are discussed under 3700/optánomai, "see."]
     
  17. DaveRC

    DaveRC Member

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    [​IMG]

    Unfortunaly too many Christians today imagine this is what Christ is referring to in Matthew 16:28, 23:39, 24:30, and 26:64.

    If Christ is coming back in a bodily form such as this, on a cloudy day, how could the whole world witness this?

    I live in Riverside California and can I see clouds over San Bernadino and the figure of a man in those clouds?

    If not, how can I witness this event half a globe away in Jerusalem?

    Caiaphas knew what Jesus meant in verse 64, only Yahweh comes in the clouds of Glory! Only Yahweh inhabits the clouds! Cloud judgments occurred many times in the Old Testament.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017

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