Summing up “the soul of man”

[Chopper]

Please allow me to explain a little more of what I see concerning those verses.

First though I would like you to read a brief history of the life and work of Dr. Spiros Zodhiates presented here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiros_Zodhiates in order to see why I think you should take heed of what he wrote concerning Romans 1:20. His mother tongue was Greek and he is now recognised by many evangelical Christians as an authority in the Koine Greek language.


The apostle Paul then once wrote in his letter to the Romans... “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” Romans 1:19-20 KJV, and these verses have been used throughout much of Christian history in order to teach many to believe and preach that all who will be condemned will have received enough knowledge and understanding of God for Him to justify condemning them to everlasting torment.

In his study helps on Romans 1:20, KJV however, Zodhiates wrote: “The word translated “Godhead” is not the Greek theotes (2320) which indeed would have meant the Godhead; but theiotes (2305) which means merely divinity, the demonstrated power of the Godhead and not the essence and the character of the Godhead. By looking at nature one can conclude that indeed God is all powerful, but not necessarily that He is an all-loving God of righteousness and justice. There is only so much of God that one can know from God’s creation (v. 19), but to know the essence of God as a triune Deity, one needs to receive His revelation by faith. The rejection of what knowledge a person does have of God is what brings condemnation on him.”

Also, the apostle Paul himself explained that before God moved upon him, his ignorance of God was so great that he began working to destroy God's church 1 Timothy 1:13.
Acts 22:4 NIV tells us that he actually “persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison”. If then a Zealous Pharisee like Saul could be so blind to God's self-sacrificing love for fallen mankind and be so violently opposed to God, how can other Jews and Gentiles begin to rightly understand the true meaning of God if they have not first been carefully taught?

“By looking at nature one can conclude that indeed God is all powerful, but not necessarily that He is an all-loving God of righteousness and justice.”


Furthermore, when Paul wrote those words in his letter to the Romans there was no such thing as Darwin’s theory of evolution. As fanciful or as flawed as it may be, this theory that all life on earth began to evolve completely by chance over 3 billion years ago is now being taught by many intellectual and influential atheists involved in ‘science’ as though it was a proven fact. Consequently, it has not only allowed many lost souls to reason God out of their concept of reality but over the years it has also allowed them to indoctrinate a vast and growing number of children to do the same.

It is also now widely taught and believed that according to atheistic or secular science, the universe itself started over 13 billion years ago, and that it was also formed through a purely natural process without any need to include a creator God in the equation. What is more, this theory is also now being taught as fact by the media and by schools and universities to countless millions across the world. The so called evidence for evolution then which atheists and secularists keep gathering, is being naively accepted by more and more lost souls as evidence proving the Genesis account of creation is simply not true. It has therefore become all too easy for many to think it must be right to dismiss out of hand the creation story and the fall of man upon which the rest of the Bible stands as just another myth or fairy story. There are many therefore (agnostics, atheists, humanists, as well as pagans etc.) who are still living and dying never rightly understanding the good they ignored and offended. In which case, those who through no fault of their own were born to die corrupted never knowing the God of truth or never rightly understanding the good they kept offending, would never have been able to understand just how dangerous or offensive they really were. Condemning such as these to be tortured forever then would be like condemning dangerous and hopeless wild animals to suffer in the same way: it would do no good and would be eternally seen as an act of unnecessary and extreme cruelty to say the least.

...and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever.

God willing, I will post my reply to smaller's Jan 12 comments later.

I know others have responded to this, especially as our good Theologian smaller, I'd simply like to respond to this statement of yours....

In which case, those who through no fault of their own were born to die corrupted never knowing the God of truth or never rightly understanding the good they kept offending

You just mentioned that the cosmos testifies of a creative God. Therefore this statement of yours is useless.

 

[smaller]

In Revelation 20:10 we are clearly told, “The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever”. But please note, this verse tells us that only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are spoken of here. No one else is included in this verse.

The obvious hole in your theological position bucket now appears in the above, which I pointed out to literally months ago when you first dragged this dead cat position into question.

Your position does accept eternal torment, as you note above, for Rev. 20:10. Now the position has to find a way to double deal other occupants of said LoF. It's not like I haven't personally examined this same claim, which has been around for awhile.

Revelation 14:9-11 also speaks clearly to me of everlasting torment, “Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.””

Brilliant deduction.

But note again, we are being told here of everlasting torment coming only upon those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

That doesn't help your argument. Here's who get's the mark:

Revelation 13:16
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

In other words, this statement made by the third angel does not by any means tell us all of the condemned will be given the same condemnation as the demonic worshippers mentioned here.

The group however has expanded significantly from your first factual sight above.

Furthermore, those worshippers of Revelation 14:9-11 can be seen worshipping the beast and his image after the “the eternal gospel” was seen being proclaimed “to those who dwell on the earth – to every nation and tribe and language and people”, as Revelation 14:6 explains. In which case, the sentence of endless torment given to those seen worshipping the beast and his image appears to be given not only because of their satanic worship and their receiving of the mark of the beast but also because they were made aware of the eternal gospel.

This would be a side note, but our own conscience and nature also are Gospel proclaimers. Romans 1:19-20, Romans 2:14. What you may mean to say is that it appears that a special "last minute" pleading by a Gospel preaching angel flying around in earths atmosphere may be involved in the scripture references in question.

I don't accept that general sight, but I can see how it could be read that way.

Having been given knowledge of the truth and of the meaning of good and evil, and having been shown the way of salvation those demonic souls are moved only to offend with all the lust and venom of Satan himself. By their unrelenting hatred and contempt for God and truth they will bring the greater condemnation upon themselves.

So yes, God warns of a punishment of endless torment in these verses, but certainly not for every condemned soul.

Let's keep a little record of this exchange just to remind you that the initial hardline argument you made may not be as tight as you proposed. It took quite some time to get you to admit that Satan and his messengers will in fact be tormented forever and ever. So, we seem to have now at least established that much. And, using your own modified terms you have expanded that to perhaps a significant amount of others.

The key to living forever is knowing God but how we react to that knowledge in this life will largely determine our state in eternity. The wages of sin is death as revealed in Genesis chapters 2, 3 and 5 and elsewhere in the Bible, but the wages for the vilest form of evil can also be seen described in Scripture as being a punishment of endless torment. God alone is immortal and He will give immortality to whoever He has decided shall have immortality.

What you are proposing is really a modified form of nihilism which ONLY results in permanent death at the end. AND if nihilism is the case, there is no "deterrent" to evils. Let us do whatever for tomorrow we die and it won't matter. That's the problem with nihilism.

...and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever.

At least we made some progress in the above. Please keep in mind I'm not a hell monger for people. I know for no uncertain fact that we have no evidence of a single named person now or in the future, in the LoF. So I refuse to "get ahead" of the script on these matters. IF scriptures do not show this matter, it is silent for a reason.

That reason is for "our" fulfillment of Romans 13:8-12. I will hope to the very end for all people, AND I will gladly direct judgment unto eternal damnation in the LoF attentions where I KNOW they belong, unto the devil and his messengers who we all (should) know WILL HAVE that fate.

I suspect that God in Christ will turn out to be significantly more Merciful than is commonly proposed. At least I can't rule that out as a possibility. Not yet anyway.

ONE matter to pay attentions to in Rev. (among many, of course) is Rev. 5:13. I happen to believe Revelation is going to be the opposite of what most think. It will be an entirely GLORIOUS EVENT. And I stake that sight in part on Rev. 5:13 and PRAY to be a participant in same. Romans 8:21-22, Jer. 31:34, Heb. 8:11 and Isa. 54:8-10 is what I'm expecting and what I direct my attentions to, in addition of course to the main event, which is the revealing of Christ in us.

Revelation is actually Victory Time. People can fall into doom and gloom far too easily IF they don't learn to identify the players and sort out the pieces.

NONE of us should fear the destruction of the devil and his messengers and THAT'S what I'm waiting for, quite excitedly actually.

 

[freewill]

Revelation 13:16
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

The group however has expanded significantly from your first factual sight above.

This part of Revelation is I believe another reference to the great tribulation during the end times when all on earth who are consciously aware during that time will come to know the truth and will be seen either to knowingly submit to pure evil or submit only to God. All who submit to God will suffer indeed great tribulation and many will be persecuted to death. All who knowingly submit to pure evil will ultimately suffer endless torment in the Lake of fire.

It took quite some time to get you to admit that Satan and his messengers will in fact be tormented forever and ever.

Smaller, ever since I took Scripture seriously 30 years ago, as far as I am aware, I have always acknowledged that Satan and his demons along with all who are equally evil will be tormented forever, and at no time have I ever tried to hide that belief. If you had read carefully what I have been posting here then you would have seen clearly from the start what I believe concerning those who know the truth and the meaning of good and evil and seek to offend what they know is good. You would have seen clearly that I believe through their vile hatred and contempt for God and truth they will bring the greater condemnation upon themselves.

What you are proposing is really a modified form of nihilism which ONLY results in permanent death at the end. AND if nihilism is the case, there is no "deterrent" to evils. Let us do whatever for tomorrow we die and it won't matter. That's the problem with nihilism.

What you are overlooking again smaller is that if a man doesn't know God and the meaning of perfect goodness, and doesn't believe in the Bible then whatever you and I believe and preach regarding everlasting torment will not make any difference to his behaviour.

Whilst at the same time, those evil souls who know God well and do know His justice then they will also know they will be justly tormented forever if they continue along their road of evil.

I also believe that preaching the unbiblical idea that the least knowledgeable and least offensive of the condemned will be tormented forever by a God of love, does in fact work to turn many reasonable agnostics away from God. They cannot accept the idea that all their loved ones who die without Christ will be made to writhe in agony forever is “good news”. You, like certain other Christians might think it is, but they don't, on the contrary many are horrified by it and switch off from God altogether.

At least we made some progress in the above

Hopefully

 

[freewill]

All "unbelievers" in Christ Jesus, their names are not written in the Lambs Book of life. That includes everyone who is not Blood bought thru Christ Jesus' cross work, EVERYONE! Notice please that they are cast into the lake of fire where Satan and his followers are.

Notice also please, the most evil of them who were given knowledge and understanding of the truth and despised and hated the good so clearly revealed through Jesus Christ, and sought only to keep fulfilling their depraved desires to seduce and corrupt, torture and destroy whoever or whatever they know is good. will be made to endure everlasting torment. These shall forever be seen to have been justly given “the greater condemnation” in the lake of fire, and justice will be seen to be done.

The least knowledgeable and least offensive of them who were born to be condemned never rightly knowing God or having a true understanding of the good they ignored and offended, will eventually be annihilated in that same lake of fire. Whatever physical or mental suffering those least offensive might receive before their final termination will to some degree depend upon whatever suffering or terror they maliciously willed or inflicted on others without good reason and without remorse. “He will render to each one according to his works”, justice will be done and will be seen to be done.

...and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever.

 

[Chopper]

O my friend. You are so like, even my Grandson Chad, have a distorted theology of the love of God. You make this statement....

I also believe that preaching the unbiblical idea that the least knowledgeable and least offensive of the condemned will be tormented forever by a God of love, does in fact work to turn many reasonable agnostics away from God. They cannot accept the idea that all their loved ones who die without Christ will be made to writhe in agony forever is “good news”. You, like certain other Christians might think it is, but they don't, on the contrary many are horrified by it and switch off from God altogether.

This simply is not true! NOT TRUE. All the world's occupants are without excuse, says....
Romans 1:19 "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

What don't you reckon to be the Truth? These people of who you say...."least knowledgeable and least offensive". God's Word, not you, says they are without excuse because they have a witness that God is to believed on because of what He has created. God's creation (Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.) God Himself has made that as an ample witness to His presence and authority over all things.

It might help you in understanding that those "least knowledgeable & least offensive" will not be judged like the Hitlers or Satan & his demon force, but be judged on....Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."

Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."

There ya go freewill. Those two Scriptures protect the Least knowledgeable and least offensive from the torments that terrible sinners will experience in the lake of fire.

Now, you say...."and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever."How about this?....Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Now, you'll say that the least knowledgeable and least offensive are not those who took the mark of the beast. O really? Those will be the first to take that mark because they won't know any better. Only the Blood bought Believers in Christ Jesus will know not to take that mark, all others will fall for the lie of Satan and think that the mark will be the only way to survive during the tribulation period.

I sure hope the light of Truth will come on for you my friend.

 

[freewill]

All the world's occupants are without excuse, says....
Romans 1:19 "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

Like I explained on Monday,
The apostle Paul himself also explained that before God moved upon him, his ignorance of God was so great that he began working to destroy God's church 1 Timothy 1:13.
Acts 22:4 NIV tells us that he actually “persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison”. If then a Zealous Pharisee like Saul could be so blind to God's self-sacrificing love for fallen mankind and be so violently opposed to God, how can other Jews and Gentiles begin to rightly understand the true meaning of God if they have not first been carefully taught?

I can't help agreeing with Zodhiates on this: In his study helps on Romans 1:20, KJV Zodhiates wrote: “The word translated “Godhead” is not the Greek theotes (2320) which indeed would have meant the Godhead; but theiotes (2305) which means merely divinity, the demonstrated power of the Godhead and not the essence and the character of the Godhead. By looking at nature one can conclude that indeed God is all powerful, but not necessarily that He is an all-loving God of righteousness and justice. There is only so much of God that one can know from God’s creation (v. 19), but to know the essence of God as a triune Deity, one needs to receive His revelation by faith. The rejection of what knowledge a person does have of God is what brings condemnation on him.”

I repeat,“By looking at nature one can conclude that indeed God is all powerful, but not necessarily that He is an all-loving God of righteousness and justice.”

What is more, as I explained earlier, the apostle Paul wrote his letter to the Romans before Darwin’s concept of natural evolution came into existence.

Anyway, I am not saying the least knowledgeable and least offensive are not guilty of sin and do not deserve death if they do not trust in Christ and repent and be born again (the wages of sin is death). What I am saying though is they do not deserve to be tormented forever in a lake of fire. What I am also saying is that nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever.

Now, you say...."and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever."How about this?....Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Now, you'll say that the least knowledgeable and least offensive are not those who took the mark of the beast. O really? Those will be the first to take that mark because they won't know any better.

First you seem to be agreeing with the Calvanists when they say all who will be condemned will have received enough knowledge and understanding of God for Him to justify condemning them to everlasting torment. Now you are saying “they won't know any better”.

I believe we are told those who worship the beast and receive the mark of its name will be all non-Christians living at the time of the great tribulation when the gospel of the kingdom is being proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations. I also believe they will know well the full meaning of good and evil and that they shall therefore be justly condemned to everlasting torment.

Only the Blood bought Believers in Christ Jesus will know not to take that mark, all others will fall for the lie of Satan and think that the mark will be the only way to survive during the tribulation period.

All who worship the beast and its image and receive its mark will know well the meaning of the good which they will seek to destroy. By their thoughts and their deeds they shall bring the greater condemnation upon themselves.

“The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.” Revelation 16:10-11. Such will be the twisted evil of those demonic worshippers.

...and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever.

 

[Chopper]

Like I explained on Monday,
The apostle Paul himself also explained that before God moved upon him, his ignorance of God was so great that he began working to destroy God's church 1 Timothy 1:13.
Acts 22:4 NIV tells us that he actually “persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison”. If then a Zealous Pharisee like Saul could be so blind to God's self-sacrificing love for fallen mankind and be so violently opposed to God, how can other Jews and Gentiles begin to rightly understand the true meaning of God if they have not first been carefully taught?

I can't help agreeing with Zodhiates on this: In his study helps on Romans 1:20, KJV Zodhiates wrote: “The word translated “Godhead” is not the Greek theotes (2320) which indeed would have meant the Godhead; but theiotes (2305) which means merely divinity, the demonstrated power of the Godhead and not the essence and the character of the Godhead. By looking at nature one can conclude that indeed God is all powerful, but not necessarily that He is an all-loving God of righteousness and justice. There is only so much of God that one can know from God’s creation (v. 19), but to know the essence of God as a triune Deity, one needs to receive His revelation by faith. The rejection of what knowledge a person does have of God is what brings condemnation on him.”

I repeat,“By looking at nature one can conclude that indeed God is all powerful, but not necessarily that He is an all-loving God of righteousness and justice.”

What is more, as I explained earlier, the apostle Paul wrote his letter to the Romans before Darwin’s concept of natural evolution came into existence.

Anyway, I am not saying the least knowledgeable and least offensive are not guilty of sin and do not deserve death if they do not trust in Christ and repent and be born again (the wages of sin is death). What I am saying though is they do not deserve to be tormented forever in a lake of fire. What I am also saying is that nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever.



First you seem to be agreeing with the Calvanists when they say all who will be condemned will have received enough knowledge and understanding of God for Him to justify condemning them to everlasting torment. Now you are saying “they won't know any better”.

I believe we are told those who worship the beast and receive the mark of its name will be all non-Christians living at the time of the great tribulation when the gospel of the kingdom is being proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations. I also believe they will know well the full meaning of good and evil and that they shall therefore be justly condemned to everlasting torment.



All who worship the beast and its image and receive its mark will know well the meaning of the good which they will seek to destroy. By their thoughts and their deeds they shall bring the greater condemnation upon themselves.

“The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.” Revelation 16:10-11. Such will be the twisted evil of those demonic worshippers.

...and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever.

You should know that I do follow John Calvin's theology. Now, you say this...."and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever....My answer to that false statement is....Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Those are your "least knowledgeable and Least offensive".

Lets see if I can put a few Scriptures together that make my position more clear.
1. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

2. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

3. Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

4. Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here are four Scripture verses that deal with anyone who has not put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord (Master Owner) and Savior. I sometimes refer to the so called "innocent little old ladies". So there you go, the Scriptural Truth you were looking for.

 

[freewill]

You should know that I do follow John Calvin's theology. Now, you say this...."and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever....My answer to that false statement is....Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Those are your "least knowledgeable and Least offensive".

Lets see if I can put a few Scriptures together that make my position more clear.
1. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

2. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

3. Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

4. Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here are four Scripture verses that deal with anyone who has not put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord (Master Owner) and Savior. I sometimes refer to the so called "innocent little old ladies". So there you go, the Scriptural Truth you were looking for.

Revelation 20:12-15… “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”…I see that you also believe this can only be describing a condemnation of everlasting torment for everyone who is condemned.

Certainly Revelation 20:12-15 along with other parts of Scripture clearly tell us there will be a resurrection of all the dead at the end of time when all of the unsaved souls will be judged and cast into the lake of fire where I am also told in Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 14:9-11, the most evil of them will be tormented there forever. Yes, I see God clearly telling us through Scripture that there is a lake of fire, and there will be a suffering of endless torment in that fire for the most evil of souls, but what I certainly do not see God telling us here or anywhere else for that matter, is that the least offensive of them who are cast into that fire of no return shall be forced to live in it forever. The idea that Scripture tells us the least knowledgeable and least offensive of the condemned will be made to live forever in endless torment like those who are most evil is pure conjecture.

In spite of what Calvin has taught concerning the soul of man the fact remains that God alone is immortal, not man or his his soul or his worldly spirit, but God alone is immortal as 1 Timothy 6:15-16 clearly explains, and God will give immortality to whoever He decides shall have immortality. He will give a punishment of endless torment to whoever He decides will deserve to suffer a punishment of endless torment. He will also give a punishment of endless death to whoever He decides will deserve to suffer a punishment of endless death...and He will give endless glory to whoever He decides will be made ready to receive endless glory.

“the soul who sins shall die.” Ezekiel 18:43, ESV, KJV, NKJV, and depending on God's decisions and judgements, immortality will be given or denied.

If only I could see a good reason to believe the least knowledgeable and least offensive of the condemned, including even the least intelligent and most backward of them, are destined to be tormented forever in fire, then I would have to believe that is what will happen, but that good reason simply cannot be found or given...and as far as I can see, it never will be.

 

[Chopper]

Revelation 20:12-15… “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”…I see that you also believe this can only be describing a condemnation of everlasting torment for everyone who is condemned.

Certainly Revelation 20:12-15 along with other parts of Scripture clearly tell us there will be a resurrection of all the dead at the end of time when all of the unsaved souls will be judged and cast into the lake of fire where I am also told in Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 14:9-11, the most evil of them will be tormented there forever. Yes, I see God clearly telling us through Scripture that there is a lake of fire, and there will be a suffering of endless torment in that fire for the most evil of souls, but what I certainly do not see God telling us here or anywhere else for that matter, is that the least offensive of them who are cast into that fire of no return shall be forced to live in it forever. The idea that Scripture tells us the least knowledgeable and least offensive of the condemned will be made to live forever in endless torment like those who are most evil is pure conjecture.

In spite of what Calvin has taught concerning the soul of man the fact remains that God alone is immortal, not man or his his soul or his worldly spirit, but God alone is immortal as 1 Timothy 6:15-16 clearly explains, and God will give immortality to whoever He decides shall have immortality. He will give a punishment of endless torment to whoever He decides will deserve to suffer a punishment of endless torment. He will also give a punishment of endless death to whoever He decides will deserve to suffer a punishment of endless death...and He will give endless glory to whoever He decides will be made ready to receive endless glory.

“the soul who sins shall die.” Ezekiel 18:43, ESV, KJV, NKJV, and depending on God's decisions and judgements, immortality will be given or denied.

If only I could see a good reason to believe the least knowledgeable and least offensive of the condemned, including even the least intelligent and most backward of them, are destined to be tormented forever in fire, then I would have to believe that is what will happen, but that good reason simply cannot be found or given...and as far as I can see, it never will be.

I like your thinking freewill. Only our great high God knows. "His ways are not our ways." Our God is love, first and foremost. Certainly He knows the hearts of all mankind. Mankind will receive, in the end, just what our holy and righteous Lord will's for each. May God richly bless and favor you my friend.

 

[Jim Parker]

I also believe that preaching the unbiblical idea that the least knowledgeable and least offensive of the condemned will be tormented forever by a God of love, does in fact work to turn many reasonable agnostics away from God.

They turn away from lack of understanding and from believing a a false Gospel as that which you have framed above.
Go will not turn away anyone who makes the slightest attempt to know Him.
The notion that anyone, in at least the western world, has not had access to the Gospel is indefensible.

The major problem is: “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." Jhn 3:19

It is also of disgrace to the church that the Gospel is not being preached by the ACTIONS of those who call themselves believers in accordance with Jesus' command: “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." (Mat 5:16) Perhaps if the western church was not so focused on discouraging good works, more people would be saved. It worked for the 6th century Irish missionaries and for St Francis of Assisi who said, "Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words."

What you have presented is an excuse for not tasting and seeing that the Lord is good ( Psa 34:8) rather than a valid reason to reject God's grace.

We know that God is love and that He does not force anyone to love Him. So if someone through ignorance chooses not to have fellowship with God then God allows him to have his choice. He who rejects God's love will, by his own choice, be separated from God in this life and in the next. That is hell. That it is unbearable torture in flames for all eternity for even the slightest infraction of God's will is complete speculation. God is merciful and just, not a monster.

If anyone really wants to know God, they will pursue that knowledge.
If they just want an excuse to reject God, they will pursue that excuse.



Iakov the fool

 

[Chopper]

That's a fine response to freewill Jim. Good for you!! you said it better than I could have. People like freewill have sat under a pastor who preaches a luvy, duvy, warm and fuzzy gospel. I don't intend any insult here, just that's how these statements of God is ALL love strike me. Of course He is love, otherwise I'd still be lost.

There needs to be, in all our churches good preaching/teaching on the JUSTICE of God. When Jesus was hanging on that cruel cross and the Father had to draw away from His beloved Son because of the worlds sins were on Him, and Jesus said, "why have You forsaken Me, I can tell you that our holy, holy just God was not all luvy, duvy, worm and fuzzy!!

If for nothing else, the story of a man being crucified on a cross at Easter, has been spread all over the world by TV and other sources. Today, everyone is without excuse.

 

[freewill]

To cause or allow any suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love.

 

[Chopper]

To cause or allow any suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love.

Freewill, that just isn't true. Listen, God is a Judge as well as a Redeemer. He has two sides. One side is love, as you say. The other is Just. God set up Laws, Statues, and rules for mankind to become His beloved Children in fellowship with Him. He gave mankind choices, either to obey Him and His Commands which show Him the man loves Him, or forsaking God's Commands showing that they reject Him.

Because of the sins that the God rejectors commit. God the Father, had to watch His beloved Son being rejected for 3+ years. Jesus came to give eternal life to all who would receive His message and be born again. God the Father had to watch those who rejected Jesus, beat Jesus unmercifully for a long period of time and finally nailed Him on that cruel criminal cross until He perished.

And you don't think that the perfect justice of God Almighty won't give to all who reject the innocent, loving, Son of God their due payment for what they did to the Almighty Son of God? That sir is the highest sort of offense that anyone could throw at the Ruler of the universe, and the most high God.

To tell the truth I can't believe that you really believe what you're stating. O, I get it, your throwing out something you don't really believe, you're enjoying this wrestling match....Caught ya!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jim Parker]

To cause or allow any suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love.

Yes, it would be offensive to God.
HOWEVER:
GOD decides what is necessary and does not ask our opinion.
God has a history of being able to be pretty harsh when He finds it necessary, as in:
(1) A flood that wiped out all but 8 people on the earth
(2) The total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and everyone in those two cities
(3) The destruction of the families of Korah, Dathan, and Abi'ram, men women and children and all their cattle (Num 16:24ff)
(4) The command that Israel wipe out all the Canaanites, man woman and child, and all their cattle, sheep, etc.
(5) Using the Assyrians (worse than Nazi Waffen SS) to punish the Northern Kingdom and Babylon to punish the Southern Kingdom

A problem arises when we assume that we have the wisdom (knowing good and evil as we do) to be able to judge whether God's actions were just or not. That's like a 5 year old advising his parents on how to run the family business.

my 2 kopecks


iakov the fool

 

[Chopper]

Yes, it would be offensive to God.
HOWEVER:
GOD decides what is necessary and does not ask our opinion.
God has a history of being able to be pretty harsh when He finds it necessary, as in:
(1) A flood that wiped out all but 8 people on the earth
(2) The total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and everyone in those two cities
(3) The destruction of the families of Korah, Dathan, and Abi'ram, men women and children and all their cattle (Num 16:24ff)
(4) The command that Israel wipe out all the Canaanites, man woman and child, and all their cattle, sheep, etc.
(5) Using the Assyrians (worse than Nazi Waffen SS) to punish the Northern Kingdom and Babylon to punish the Southern Kingdom

A problem arises when we assume that we have the wisdom (knowing good and evil as we do) to be able to judge whether God's actions were just or not. That's like a 5 year old advising his parents on how to run the family business.

my 2 kopecks


iakov the fool

Good reply iakov the brilliant.

 

[Jim Parker]

Good reply iakov the brilliant.

Thank you for encouraging my behavior.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you for encouraging my behavior.

O my good friend Jim. I always look forward to your threads and posts. You are a remarkable man of God and of His Spirit.

To go along with your comments, I'd like to add two examples where the love of God is absent from the affairs of man's good intentions.
1. 1Chronicles 13:9 "And when they came to the threshing floor of Chidon, Uzzah put out his hand to take hold of the ark, for the oxen stumbled.
13:10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he put out his hand to the ark, and he died there before God."

2. Act 5:3 "But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God."
5:5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it."

Hmm, I don't see much love here? Jim, am I missing something? Does our friend freewill see something we don't? (I have not used the name of freewill with bad intentions)

 

[Jim Parker]

O my good friend Jim. I always look forward to your threads and posts. You are a remarkable man of God and of His Spirit.

To go along with your comments, I'd like to add two examples where the love of God is absent from the affairs of man's good intentions.
1. 1Chronicles 13:9 "And when they came to the threshing floor of Chidon, Uzzah put out his hand to take hold of the ark, for the oxen stumbled.
13:10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he put out his hand to the ark, and he died there before God."

2. Act 5:3 "But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God."
5:5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it."

Hmm, I don't see much love here? Jim, am I missing something? Does our friend freewill see something we don't? (I have not used the name of freewill with bad intentions)

The reason that the ark was lost to the Philistines is that Eli, the high priest, allowed his sons to fornicate with the woman who served at the tabernacle.(Nuns???) So, rather than setting the example for Israel, his behavior taught Israel that keeping the Covenant was not really necessary.

When the Ark was returned and David wanted to bring it into Jerusalem, they put it on a cart pulled by oxen and when one stumbled, Uzzah put his hand on the ark. Again, the requirements of the Covenant were not followed.
Exo 25:14 And you shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark by them.
Exo 37:5 and put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark.
Deu 10:8At that time the LORD set apart the tribe of Levi to carry the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister to him and to bless in his name, to this day.

No one but Levis were allowed to carry the ark.
They were not allowed to touch it; they carried it with the poles through the rings on its sides.
Uzzah was not a Levite.
God is (deadly) serious about His covenant because violation of the covenant brings death even if the King approves the violation.

Ananias and Sapphira pretended to have given all the proceeds from the sale to the Church but held a portion back. Apparently their purpose was to gain the admiration of the others in the church rather than to glorify God by their generosity. (I think they would have had no problem if Ananias had told Peter, "Here's half the proceeds.")
This was deceit in an attempt to glorify themselves and, as Peter said, Ananias lied to God.
Again, God demonstrated to this primitive, struggling Church, that sin is deadly serious.

In fact, the wages of sin is death; eternal death.

The message of Uzzah and of Ananias and Sapphira are the same. God is serious about our relationship with Him. If we don't take the relationship seriously, we'll end up in the lake of fire instead of the Kingdom of God.

My 2 kopecks


iakov the fool

 

[Chopper]

The reason that the ark was lost to the Philistines is that Eli, the high priest, allowed his sons to fornicate with the woman who served at the tabernacle.(Nuns???) So, rather than setting the example for Israel, his behavior taught Israel that keeping the Covenant was not really necessary.

When the Ark was returned and David wanted to bring it into Jerusalem, they put it on a cart pulled by oxen and when one stumbled, Uzzah put his hand on the ark. Again, the requirements of the Covenant were not followed.
Exo 25:14 And you shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark by them.
Exo 37:5 and put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark.
Deu 10:8At that time the LORD set apart the tribe of Levi to carry the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister to him and to bless in his name, to this day.

No one but Levis were allowed to carry the ark.
They were not allowed to touch it; they carried it with the poles through the rings on its sides.
Uzzah was not a Levite.
God is (deadly) serious about His covenant because violation of the covenant brings death even if the King approves the violation.

Ananias and Sapphira pretended to have given all the proceeds from the sale to the Church but held a portion back. Apparently their purpose was to gain the admiration of the others in the church rather than to glorify God by their generosity. (I think they would have had no problem if Ananias had told Peter, "Here's half the proceeds.")
This was deceit in an attempt to glorify themselves and, as Peter said, Ananias lied to God.
Again, God demonstrated to this primitive, struggling Church, that sin is deadly serious.

In fact, the wages of sin is death; eternal death.

The message of Uzzah and of Ananias and Sapphira are the same. God is serious about our relationship with Him. If we don't take the relationship seriously, we'll end up in the lake of fire instead of the Kingdom of God.

My 2 kopecks


iakov the fool

Good reply Jim. That's exactly how those two incidents played out. There are two sides to the Laws and Commandments of our Holy God. One is love and grace, the other is stern. I liked what you said....

God demonstrated to this primitive, struggling Church, that sin is deadly serious.

 

[freewill]

To cause or allow any suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love.

...and what is more, there isn't a single good reason (biblical or moral) why we should believe in the idea that man was born with an immortal soul. Neither then is there a good reason to believe the least knowledgeable and least offensive of condemned souls, even the most backward or least intelligent of them who were also born to die in ignorance, will be made to live in endless terror and torment in a lake of fire forever. Such ideas are unbiblical and a slander on the name of God.



If however you still feel a need to have faith in and worship one who's actions you claim are motivated by love, mercy and righteous justice, and will then go on to torture all of the least knowledgeable and least offensive of unsaved souls forever, then do please remember this: your faith is the assurance of what you hope for (Hebrews 11:1) and by what you hope for you shall be exonerated or condemned.

...and nowhere in Scripture does God tell us every man was born with an immortal soul and that every condemned soul will be kept alive and conscious in a lake of fire forever.