Hi Barb, This is kind of off-topic, but I used to be Catholic. Too much doctrine I can't take. So I know what you're talking about. Here's what I'll say: I don't need to cause my cat pain to get him to listen to me or teach him anything. To me, pain is not good. I was never happy when I had it. Two babies Three operations One kidney stone And plenty of other stuff, not as bad as the above. I could live without it. It's good to know when there's something wrong in the body... But there's this "scale" --- I like to keep it at 2 or 3 at the most.