Tattoos 'just part of our society'; among Christians 'it is open'.

[Ryan]

Ya know what, I'm not gonna let sleeping dogs lie. Farouk I will be as bold to say that what you are suggesting is for people to sin against the Word of God. If this is where Christianity is heading, I will jump off the bus and see you at the finish line. I do not know how God will be pleased with a person permanently disfiguring and defiling their body under the guise of it's symbolic of my faith. All I've been hearing is me thinks, I want, tasteful, etc. Did anybody stop to ask what God thought? Oh right, we have straight from the Word of God, thou shalt not tattoo themselves. But no, God must not have meant that. That was for another time. Well I hope the cherry picking of his commandments serve you well. Even apart from Leviticus, there are to many question marks whether God approves of it. That is a line I don't want people to consider, and I believe it is terribly irresponsible of you as a believer to encourage this type of behaviour. Whoever teaches who to disobey the least of the commandments will be considered what in the kingdom of heaven?

As far as witnessing, please. If that's the only way to open up to someone about their faith, man I ain't even gonna go there. I am holding back and can say alot more, but for those on the other side who are considering a tattoo. Get the flip side of the argument to, other then everybody else is doing it. History shows us where that mentality can and will lead to.

 

[farouk]

Claudya: It wasn't my purpose to turn the thread into a discussion of about fornication, unless I have completely misunderstood what you are saying. I think we are probably talking at cross-purposes, and not communicating well.

Again, I don't find multiple tattoos objectionable at all.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Rockbridge Seminary thought it was important to make sure the tattoo shared center stage with the Bible on their picture-ad that shows up often on this site.

 

[Claudya]

Well I'm sorry about that. Sadly I don't communicate well with most people, I think the communication part of my brain is underdevelopped. :-(
Sorry for stealing your time.

 

[farouk]

Ya know what, I'm not gonna let sleeping dogs lie. Farouk I will be as bold to say that what you are suggesting is for people to sin against the Word of God. If this is where Christianity is heading, I will jump off the bus and see you at the finish line. I do not know how God will be pleased with a person permanently disfiguring and defiling their body under the guise of it's symbolic of my faith. All I've been hearing is me thinks, I want, tasteful, etc. Did anybody stop to ask what God thought? Oh right, we have straight from the Word of God, thou shalt not tattoo themselves. But no, God must not have meant that. That was for another time. Well I hope the cherry picking of his commandments serve you well. Even apart from Leviticus, there are to many question marks whether God approves of it. That is a line I don't want people to consider, and I believe it is terribly irresponsible of you as a believer to encourage this type of behaviour. Whoever teaches who to disobey the least of the commandments will be considered what in the kingdom of heaven?

As far as witnessing, please. If that's the only way to open up to someone about their faith, man I ain't even gonna go there. I am holding back and can say alot more, but for those on the other side who are considering a tattoo. Get the flip side of the argument to, other then everybody else is doing it. History shows us where that mentality can and will lead to.

Ryan:

Do you shave?

Is there a distinction between being an Old Testament Jew in the land, and a New Testament believer under grace, with a possible motive to evangelize? (I don't think I've been arguing aesthetics for aesthetics' sake; time and again reference has been made to the faith related, witness potential.)

Seems that your argument is basically my guilt by association, hypothetically. (I'll not take your remarks as personal; just that you are using me as a hypothesis for your argument.)

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

Well I'm sorry about that. Sadly I don't communicate well with most people, I think the communication part of my brain is underdevelopped. :-(
Sorry for stealing your time.

Claudya:

Hey, no prob. Good to discuss things.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan:

Do you shave?

Is there a distinction between being an Old Testament Jew in the land, and a New Testament believer under grace, with a possible motive to evangelize? (I don't think I've been arguing aesthetics for aesthetics' sake; time and again reference has been made to the faith related, witness potential.

Seems that your argument is basically my guilt by association, hypothetically. (I'll not take your remarks as personal; just that you are using me as a hypothesis for your argument.)

Blessings.

Ah yes, the do you shave argument. The notion that Israelites were never permitted to cut their hair. K, I'll play along here. Yes I do shave. (Now insert relevant passage)

OT believers and NT believers, because there was such a difference. OT believers were saved in the same way NT believers way. The best thing any believer could do is rip out two of the most uninspired pages in the bible. The 2 pages that say Old Testament and New Testament. They are not God's Word and should never be there.

As far as the witnessing aspect, this is such a weak aspect and argument. One foot in the world, one foot out. Never saw any of the Apostles or Paul acting in such a manner.

 

[Carolyn]

Please, Farouk, don't take offence. I was saying that the Holy Spirit might be leading some to use a tatoo to be more accepted in a culture and to be able in this way to reach them for Christ, especially if he or she has a scripture tat or otherwise Christian tat as you discribed.
I was also encouraging people not to get them for the wrong reasons as you also do.
I commented on your zeal to break down the walls of prejudice, which I do admire. I just wondered what might happen if it were channeled into evangelism. But that is the Holy Spirit's business.
Forgive me for thinking of you as a son. I am fond of you in Christ, and I have never meant to offend or irritate you.

 

[farouk]

Ah yes, the do you shave argument. The notion that Israelites were never permitted to cut their hair. K, I'll play along here. Yes I do shave. (Now insert relevant passage)

OT believers and NT believers, because there was such a difference. OT believers were saved in the same way NT believers way. The best thing any believer could do is rip out two of the most uninspired pages in the bible. The 2 pages that say Old Testament and New Testament. They are not God's Word and should never be there.

As far as the witnessing aspect, this is such a weak aspect and argument. One foot in the world, one foot out. Never saw any of the Apostles or Paul acting in such a manner.

Ryan:

Okay so I do discern that we may have some distinct doctrinal emphases.

Re. what you asked about inserting the passage I was referring to: it's Leviticus 19, which where cutting for the dead in the same sentence about printing marks, has close to it a verse about not trimming the corners of the beard. So it's not irrelevant after all: one shouldn't avoid dealing with this and yet be determined to say very strong things about people who do try to deal with it all and read it differently.

In the New Testament, there are repeated quotes from the Lord Jesus in instituting the Lord's Supper where he refers to the 'New Testament'. I'll just rest my case there, as a dispensationalist. (I know that some people are so strongly Covenantal/Reformed in their views that Old Testament Jews under the law in the land, and the church are supposedly one and the same thing, but I am not this way inclined.)

So you do have a point I suppose that since we apparently come from such doctrinally different backgrounds, our thinking is also likely to be influenced more widely.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

Please, Farouk, don't take offence. I was saying that the Holy Spirit might be leading some to use a tatoo to be more accepted in a culture and to be able in this way to reach them for Christ, especially if he or she has a scripture tat or otherwise Christian tat as you discribed.
I was also encouraging people not to get them for the wrong reasons as you also do.
I commented on your zeal to break down the walls of prejudice, which I do admire. I just wondered what might happen if it were channeled into evangelism. But that is the Holy Spirit's business.
Forgive me for thinking of you as a son. I am fond of you in Christ, and I have never meant to offend or irritate you.

Carolyn:

I'm very touched that you should think of me like a son; and your post just now radiates grace and friendliness; thank-you so much.

Maybe very imperfectly, my various past points would basically echo what your post just says about tattoos. Some people may indeed feel led to get a witness tattoo, like you say. It's true, too, that people do sometimes rush into them for the wrong reasons. I agree that we should be more zealous in the Gospel. I like the idea that the young guy that I talked to should proclaim the Word from John 3.16 in such an overt way, as well.

Blessings.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan:

Okay so I do discern that we may have some distinct doctrinal emphases.

Re. what you asked about inserting the passage I was referring to: it's Leviticus 19, which where cutting for the dead in the same sentence about printing marks, has close to it a verse about not trimming the corners of the beard. So it's not irrelevant after all: one shouldn't avoid dealing with this and yet be determined to say very strong things about people who do try to deal with it all and read it differently.

In the New Testament, there are repeated quotes from the Lord Jesus in instituting the Lord's Supper where he refers to the 'New Testament'. I'll just rest my case there, as a dispensationalist. (I know that some people are so strongly Covenantal/Reformed in their views that Old Testament Jews under the law in the land, and the church are supposedly one and the same thing, but I am not this way inclined.)

So you do have a point I suppose that since we apparently come from such doctrinally different backgrounds, our thinking is also likely to be influenced more widely. Let's just try to communicate with each other in a way that is suitable.

Blessings.

Even if that is your interpretation, there is still such a HUGE question mark about whether God is even OK with it. Even if you don't take a literal meaning to that verse, the underlying message is not to be conformed to the ways of the world. Tattooing is conforming to the ways of the world. God wants us set apart every way imaginable so we will be his peculiar people. Not having a tattoo nowadays makes one peculiar. Who woulda think that 30 years ago. Times are a changing, but for the better?

So question, when the temple is rebuilt, would you go and spray paint on the brick walls Farouk was Here? Of course not. We are God's temple, it says so in the very word out of God's mouth. Why would you want to defile what God has made? I am just calling a spade a spade here. If that is the choices you have made, that is between you and your maker. But to openly and blatantly say it's an acceptable practice nowadays, and use a mob mentality way to rationalize it as everybody else is doing it, so it must ne OK, is a major error in thinking.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Y'know, I don't want to get into the middle of this or make it seem like I'm siding with anyone, but a lot of Christians have the view that the laws in Leviticus really don't apply today anymore. They applied at the time, but some things have changed with time that no longer make those laws necessary.
For example, according to Leviticus, you aren't supposed to eat shrimp, and certain kinds of food that are often eaten today. And it's true that there are health risks associated with some of those, but with better sanitation and such today, it's not really much of a concern anymore.
In Leviticus women used to have to clean anything they sat on when they had their time of the month--that's not the case anymore today, we have new and improved ways to keep things sanitary.

I think it was mentioned in an earlier thread on tattoos, several months back, that the reason the Jews weren't supposed to have any had to do with them being associated with pagan origins that were used at the time. Probably had to do with avoiding the appearance of evil, then?
If I'm understanding that right, they aren't really used for pagan rituals today, so it's not so much of an issue. You won't get mistake for a pagan because of it. (If my facts are off here, please do correct me.)

When the Bible says to be separate from the world, I don't think it means that if everyone else is doing something, then that means you should avoid it at all costs simply because it's popular. Would that mean I should avoid, say, the internet simply because everyone has the internet these days?
I think the verse is most likely referring to things that are sinful, or could be associated with sin. We should be separate from the world in that we don't let our sinful desires guide our actions as the world does.


I can still see where Christians might object to tattoos, though, whether I agree or not. And if you think it's wrong or that it might be wrong, then certainly, don't do it and don't encourage it.

Romans 14 comes to mind here.
"Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."
"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another."
~Romans 14: 13, 14, 19 KJV

I don't think we should let differences of opinions on issues like this divide us.

 

[farouk]

Even if that is your interpretation, there is still such a HUGE question mark about whether God is even OK with it. Even if you don't take a literal meaning to that verse, the underlying message is not to be conformed to the ways of the world. Tattooing is conforming to the ways of the world. God wants us set apart every way imaginable so we will be his peculiar people. Not having a tattoo nowadays makes one peculiar. Who woulda think that 30 years ago. Times are a changing, but for the better?

So question, when the temple is rebuilt, would you go and spray paint on the brick walls Farouk was Here? Of course not. We are God's temple, it says so in the very word out of God's mouth. Why would you want to defile what God has made? I am just calling a spade a spade here. If that is the choices you have made, that is between you and your maker. But to openly and blatantly say it's an acceptable practice nowadays, and use a mob mentality way to rationalize it as everybody else is doing it, so it must ne OK, is a major error in thinking.

Ryan:

Again, dispensationally, my thinking is not as a Jew looking to the physical temple, but as a Christian heading to the Rapture, under grace, under Romans 14 liberty, looking for witness opportunities. I'm not looking to impose policies on the world in preparation for the reign of righteousness; I'm a simple dispensationalist.

I agree about being set apart. But if a Scripture ref. design acts as a bold witness to unbelievers, it's hard to try to unload one Christian's preference to be untattooed on another Christian.

You are entitled to talk about your views on 'major error(s)', what is 'blatant' and so forth. If other Christians' wishes to be bold in their personal witness have to be channeled only outside the parameters of what you choose to define as 'blatant', then...well, it won't work, I'm afraid.

Blessings.

 

[reba]

No, I don't think so.



So because we are a christian site we should pretent that we are all perfect like angels and never failed on our path and something like ex bfs don't exist?
Yeah lifetime monogamy is a high ideal, but few of us achieve it. Some relationships aren't casual, but still don't lead to a marriage.


Well it sounded a bit like you wanted to make me feel like an immoral person.

I believe we should make the effort to be monogamous, from 'now' forward.. Sex outside of marriage is sin. No way am I saying we should pretend we are angels, at the same time we should feel some shame for or past sinful behaviours. Shame enough to not want to continue them. I am not proud of my sins I would not want list of them.

The same with other types sin also.

 

[farouk]

Y'know, I don't want to get into the middle of this or make it seem like I'm siding with anyone, but a lot of Christians have the view that the laws in Leviticus really don't apply today anymore. They applied at the time, but some things have changed with time that no longer make those laws necessary.
For example, according to Leviticus, you aren't supposed to eat shrimp, and certain kinds of food that are often eaten today. And it's true that there are health risks associated with some of those, but with better sanitation and such today, it's not really much of a concern anymore.
In Leviticus women used to have to clean anything they sat on when they had their time of the month--that's not the case anymore today, we have new and improved ways to keep things sanitary.

I think it was mentioned in an earlier thread on tattoos, several months back, that the reason the Jews weren't supposed to have any had to do with them being associated with pagan origins that were used at the time. Probably had to do with avoiding the appearance of evil, then?
If I'm understanding that right, they aren't really used for pagan rituals today, so it's not so much of an issue. You won't get mistake for a pagan because of it. (If my facts are off here, please do correct me.)

I can still see where Christians might object to it, though, whether I agree or not. And if you think it's wrong or that it might be wrong, then certainly, don't do it and don't encourage it.

Romans 14 comes to mind here. It speaks on the matter of things that are considered debatable.
"Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."
"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another."
~Romans 14: 13, 14, 19

Hi questdriven:

This is a very thoughtful post. I think you have quite an evident background of Christian teaching, if I may say so.

Re. the practice itself, if some Christians really don't want to do it, then this is entirely their choice and responsibility. If in their decision not to, and even distaste for it, they have some unsavory examples in mind of unsuccessful tattoos they have seen, then one can particularly understand their thinking also. If some Christian men and, yes, women now, do wish to do it and have thought and prayed about it in a God fearing way, particularly with a view to using it as a witness to the generation where the Lord has put us, then, again, in the light of Romans 14 which you relevantly mention, this is entirely their responsibility also, if they quietly and confidently have their skin injected with tasteful, testimony ink.

(Hope this makes sense, like your post did also?)

Blessings.

 

[Ryan]

QuestDriven and Farouk,

I am providing the flip side to the argument that is more weighted to not getting one. I have provided all of Levitucus 19 for all to read. Decide which one of these verses are for the believer today, and which one was for the Jew yesterday. Unfortunately, Christianity has removed itself so far from the Jewish origins of our faith, that the whole Levitical laws have no understanding for how they were interpreted by the sages of old. And that is unfortunate, because there is so much wisdom and knowledge from the origins of our faith.

Your theology implies that man gets to pick which ones are relevant. Why can we not conform to God's commandments, not God conform to ours. And yes, there are many laws that were solely given to the land, priesthood and what not. Mostly because they just cannot be practiced today, so they're out of service temporarily. But really think, which Law will be written on our hearts? It's the only law God has ever known, and the one that revealed his character to a redeemed people. I highlighted and underlined the ones that cannot be observed today.

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
<SUP class=versenum>2 </SUP>“Speak to all the congregation of the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.
<SUP class=versenum>3 </SUP>Every one of you <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>My sabbaths; <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>I am the Lord your God.
<SUP class=versenum>4 </SUP>Do not turn to <SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>idols or make for yourselves molten <SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>gods; I am the Lord your God.
<SUP class=versenum>5 </SUP>‘Now when you offer a sacrifice of peace offerings to the Lord, you shall offer it so that you may be accepted.
<SUP class=versenum>6 </SUP>It shall be eaten the same day you offer it, and the next day; but what remains until the third day shall be burned with fire.
<SUP class=versenum>7 </SUP>So if it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an offense; it will not be accepted.
<SUP class=versenum>8 </SUP>Everyone who eats it will bear his iniquity, for he has profaned the holy thing of the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from his people.
Sundry Laws

<SUP class=versenum>9</SUP>‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest.
<SUP class=versenum>10 </SUP>Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the Lord your God. Although this instruction is about taking care of the poor as gleaning was a common practice then.
<SUP class=versenum>11 </SUP>‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(H)'></SUP>You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, <SUP class=crossreference value='(I)'></SUP>nor lie to one another.
<SUP class=versenum>12 </SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(J)'></SUP>You shall not swear falsely by My name, so as to <SUP class=crossreference value='(K)'></SUP>profane the name of your God; I am the Lord.
<SUP class=versenum>13 </SUP>‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(L)'></SUP>You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him. <SUP class=crossreference value='(M)'></SUP>The wages of a hired man are not to remain with you all night until morning.
<SUP class=versenum>14 </SUP>You shall not curse a deaf man, nor <SUP class=crossreference value='(N)'></SUP>place a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall revere your God; I am the Lord.
<SUP class=versenum>15 </SUP>‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(O)'></SUP>You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.
<SUP class=versenum>16 </SUP>You shall not go about as <SUP class=crossreference value='(P)'></SUP>a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor; I am the Lord.
<SUP class=versenum>17 </SUP>‘You <SUP class=crossreference value='(R)'></SUP>shall not hate your<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>]</SUP>fellow countryman in your heart; you <SUP class=crossreference value='(S)'></SUP>may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him.
<SUP class=versenum>18 </SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(T)'></SUP>You shall not take vengeance, <SUP class=crossreference value='(U)'></SUP>nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but <SUP class=crossreference value='(V)'></SUP>you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
<SUP class=versenum>19 </SUP>‘You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; <SUP class=crossreference value='(W)'></SUP>you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.
<SUP class=versenum>20 </SUP>‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(X)'></SUP>Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free.
<SUP class=versenum>21 </SUP>He shall bring his guilt offering to the Lord to the doorway of the tent of meeting, <SUP class=crossreference value='(Y)'></SUP>a ram for a guilt offering.
<SUP class=versenum>22 </SUP>The priest shall also make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed, and the sin which he has committed will be forgiven him.
<SUP class=versenum>23 </SUP>‘When you enter the land and plant all kinds of trees for food, then you shall count their fruit as forbidden. Three years it shall be forbidden to you; it shall not be eaten.
<SUP class=versenum>24 </SUP>But in the fourth year all its fruit shall be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord.
<SUP class=versenum>25 </SUP>In the fifth year you are to eat of its fruit, that its yield may increase for you; I am the Lord your God. Although this is talking about giving the land time to produce it's fruit and not be in such a rush to begin harvesting, but wait for things to develop fully.
<SUP class=versenum>26 </SUP>‘You shall not eat anything <SUP class=crossreference value='(Z)'></SUP>with the blood, nor practice <SUP class=crossreference value='(AA)'></SUP>divination or soothsaying.
<SUP class=versenum>27 </SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(AB)'></SUP>You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.
<SUP class=versenum>28 </SUP>You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.
<SUP class=versenum>29 </SUP>‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(AC)'></SUP>Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness.
<SUP class=versenum>30 </SUP>You shall <SUP class=crossreference value='(AD)'></SUP>keep My sabbaths and <SUP class=crossreference value='(AE)'></SUP>revere My sanctuary; I am the Lord.
<SUP class=versenum>31 </SUP>‘Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.
<SUP class=versenum>32 </SUP>‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(AG)'></SUP>You shall rise up before the grayheaded and honor the aged, and you shall revere your God; I am the Lord.
<SUP class=versenum>33 </SUP>‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(AH)'></SUP>When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong.
<SUP class=versenum>34 </SUP>The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and <SUP class=crossreference value='(AI)'></SUP>you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.
<SUP class=versenum>35 </SUP>‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(AJ)'></SUP>You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity.
<SUP class=versenum>36 </SUP>You shall have <SUP class=crossreference value='(AK)'></SUP>just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the Lord your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt.
<SUP class=versenum>37 </SUP>You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the Lord.’”

 

[farouk]

Ryan: If you are highlighting the parts that applied to Old Testament Jews only, you forgot to highlight the verse about the sabbath.

PS: Do you never wear clothes made of mixed/synthetic fiber?

PPS: I never lived in Egypt, either, although as a dispensationalist I would hold that all Scripture is for me, in the sense that I can learn from it, but all Scripture is not about me, as a member of the church.

PPPS: I thought you already said you do shave, but one of the verses you didn't highlight mentioned about not even trimming beards also.

Blessings.

PPPPS: As a dispensationalist reading Galatians, I honestly don't think I'm under the law.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan: If you are highlighting the parts that applied to Old Testament Jews only, .

Your theology implies there is a distinction. The bible says otherwise for Jew and Gentile.

you forgot to highlight the verse about the sabbath.

No I didn't. The Sabbath the way it was practiced and intended is for all believers.

PS: Do you never wear clothes made of mixed/synthetic fiber?

Part of having trust and faith is knowing that God wants to be involved in every aspect of my life. Including the clothes that I wear. Do I always look at the tag, no. But I'm not gonna get hung up about it as there are other weightier issues of the Law that I am working on first and foremost.

PPS: I never lived in Egypt, either, although as a dispensationalist I would hold that all Scripture is for me, in the sense that I can learn from it, but all Scripture is not about me, as a member of the church.

The bible holds no distinction about who the church is. It's inclusive of all believers Jew and Gentile. Just remember the Olive Tree and who gets grafted into who is the natural branch and tree.

PPPS: I thought you already said you do shave, but one of the verses you didn't highlight mentioned about not even trimming beards also.

The practice was one was always permitted to shave and cut their hair. By implication is the Nazirite vow that no razor must touch the body till the vow is completed. One is not under a Nazirite vow, but is free to cut and shave as permitted, but not in a style that the pagans were engaging in. My understanding anyways.

Blessings.

PPPPS: As a dispensationalist reading Galatians, I honestly don't think I'm under the law.

That's to bad. Mark Nanos has a great book that Galatians is about Paul upholding the Torah, not the common theology nowadays that it's been set aside. What does that verse say about Paul being hard to read and understand, and people may distort to their own destruction?

 

[farouk]

Ryan, friend.

I scarcely know where to begin. All I can say for the moment is that your assumptions and mine about what the church is and what Israel is are so vastly different.

I'll get back to you later, DV.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

Okay so re. the Sabbath (and this is hyperbole, forgive me; you wouldn't really say this) but what about those Christians who go to Red Lobster after the church service and the preacher doesn't execute them for Sabbath breaking?

Maybe I shouldn't even phrase it like this, but I do reckon that what you and I practise on the Lord's Day is rather different from the Jewish observance of the Sabbath.

Today, we are in the good of what the Old Testament feast of firstfruits looked forward to: the Resurrection. 1 Cor. 15.20.

(Hey, Ryan, why don't we go to another thread, or start another thread, because this has nothing to do with the subject of the OP.)

Blessings.