Teach them the beauty of guns

[jasonc]

my fil was told he could skip school and hunt for food, he hunted, he was so poor as a kid that he had to rent a mule, milk was a blessing. yet I bet he didn't starve. he never graduated, he never made it passed 8th grade.

 

[Edward]

do you think Acts 10 , and specifically the dream, was about food ?

In a secondary sense it was about food or the analogy would not have been made.

 

[Edward]

Guns are primarily for humans...aint they?

Handguns were made to stop fights. Long-guns were made to gather food.
Handguns are defensive in nature. Long-guns are offensive in nature.

 

[Edward]

The picture I'm trying to paint here is straight forward.
Guns for kids? They may end up using then against humans and fellow kids...or even against their adversaries.

Yes. Guns are tools and kids should be taught how to use tools. There is no inherent evil in the gun, it is or is not in the heart of he who holds it. You teach kids from a young age all about (tools) (and honor) so that they can walk in honor and respect towards their fellow man, and be able bodied to be able to help them if they need help.

If the kids are taught the finality of the guns power, and to walk with honor, they will not use them against other kids. Against their adversaries? You say that like it's a bad thing. Common fisticuffs over you got my toy or owe me 20 dollars are not a good reason to use a gun. A gun is to stop fights. A gun is to save lives. A gun is only used against an adversary when there is no other alternative, and death or grave bodily harm will come if it is not stopped. How else can your 110 lb wife fight off the 260 pound psychopath rapist who has been watching her for 6 months from living across the street and seen you leave for work and decided today is the day?

In proper use of a gun for defensive purposes, the decision to shoot is not made by he who holds the gun, it is made by the bad guy who is threatening. An initial threat is made or violence displayed, fight or flight kicks in, the gun is drawn and pointed towards the bad guy. STOP (or I'll shoot you)...most times it's over right then, but any forward motion towards you after the stop command is when he makes the decision of continued aggression which forces you to shoot.

Kids are to be taught this also, and at a very young age so they will know it instinctively and not have to stop and think about it. Kids can conceptualize right and wrong, honor, threat assessment, very well and at a young age if given the chance to. Then when they are old, they will not depart from it.

 

[Edward]

Yep, I'm not a hunter myself but it seems most people around me are. Not too far north of me up in Canada I've talked to people that get most of the meat for their families by hunting. But I love animals and even though I'm both a meat eater and an expert with a gun, I would have a hard time pulling the trigger and eventually eating an animal I'd seen alive. I probably could if I had to, but to me the supermarket's the place I do my hunting.

I'm not a big time hunter either, and in no way a trophy hunter. I wanted to hunt to assure myself that I could feed the family if it came to it...and to teach the kids of the finality of the guns power. This is not tv, kids, this is real life. Respect it. This is what would happen to your mommy, or brother , or friend if you shot them.

It worked for me. My kids did learn respect for life and not to use guns recklessly. I had them up there shooting and learning before the age of 5, both of them. Now they're 28 & 29, and I can loosely call them punks because they do not walk with honor...but they've never done something stupid with a gun, in anger, ignorance, or with criminal intent. Because they were taught that, that's not what their for.

My wife fought me on it at first, but seen the wisdom in my words and hesitantly went along. The rule was, one accidental discharge in the house, one bad scene where one of them threatened the other, anything like that, and the guns go. It never happened. Praise the Lord for that! I made a deal with my kids when they were toddlers, that they can see a gun any time they wanted to, but had to ask first (and it was world war III if they didn't, but they didn't transgress!) Oh, they would test me on it (usually at bedtime when they wanted to stay up.) but I persevered to keep my word to them because that was the deal. I can not count how many card games with visiting friends that I put on hold to go show the kids a gun. I would always go through a big dramatic "let's make sure that there's no bullets in it" thing and show them the proper procedure for checking the gun, and then hand it over to them. Constantly reminding them about no fingers on the trigger, watch out where you point it and all that.

Sometimes they'd say, dad can I play with a gun? I was always careful to make the distinction to them, we don't "play" with guns, we "handle" them, safely.

Of course they had slews of toy guns, and these can be useful for training also. I taught them that they can point toy guns at each other, but not at non-combatants (some find that offensive). I remember once, I had just got home from work and the kids were in the yard having a shoot out with toy guns. As soon as I came in the gate, without a word,they both went to low ready, fingers outside the triggerguard until I passed. They were only about 6 years old at the time, but I got such a rush of pride from their professional actions, that I still talk about it, lol.

 

[jasonc]

ok, how would some find that non-combatants usage offensive? the definition of that for the laymen is that any person listed in a battlefield as:
medic, chaplain, wounded, civilian unarmed, an enemy soldier who has surrendered.

 

[Edward]

ok, how would some find that non-combatants usage offensive? the definition of that for the laymen is that any person listed in a battlefield as:
medic, chaplain, wounded, civilian unarmed, an enemy soldier who has surrendered.

Huh? I mean that they are not to point their toy guns at anyone that's not in the game, playing with them. Have you ever been to a friends house and had their kid draw down on you with a toy gun and keep you covered? Of course they are just playing, but some people do not like it because it's taken offensively by them.

If they're not in the game (a combatant) then don't point the gun at them (they're non-combatant)

 

[jasonc]

Huh? I mean that they are not to point their toy guns at anyone that's not in the game, playing with them. Have you ever been to a friends house and had their kid draw down on you with a toy gun and keep you covered? Of course they are just playing, but some people do not like it because it's taken offensively by them.

If they're not in the game (a combatant) then don't point the gun at them (they're non-combatant)

I wouldn't be offended.

 

[Edward]

I wouldn't be offended.

Neither would I , but some people are. Because it's a (gasp) GUN.

 

[jasonc]

Neither would I , but some people are. Because it's a (gasp) GUN.

get outta here. I remember a few years ago, as im only 21 when I was a kid that me and my brother would play guns at child's world. we had m16 look alikes and we got told not to bring them few times. we did what you said. that was in the 80's.

 

[Edward]

get outta here. I remember a few years ago, as im only 21 when I was a kid that me and my brother would play guns at child's world. we had m16 look alikes and we got told not to bring them few times. we did what you said. that was in the 80's.

Yeah and it's even worse now. I remember the wife of one of my friends that was over visiting complimented me on my kids, not pointing toy guns at her. She said that at another friends house, the kids always pointed their toy guns at her and it made her feel uneasy. She shoots too.

 

[Free]

So what is the need precisely for a gun? What do people need guns for?

It is quite likely that the majority of guns currently used are for the sole purpose of injuring or killing another person--handguns, anything fully automatic, and I assume semi-autos as well, and likely some types of shotguns.

 

[jasonc]

It is quite likely that the majority of guns currently used are for the sole purpose of injuring or killing another person--handguns, anything fully automatic, and I assume semi-autos as well, and likely some types of shotguns.

if you believe that then why not petition for the removal of martial arts in your country and the Olympics. judo whilst a sport now isn't new but a segment of jujitsu. which always had that to it. just as bjj is a modified version of judo. the gracies admit that they talk about it being for both sport and self-defense. I have seen judoka use it for harm.

that's my hobby.

 

[Edward]

It is quite likely that the majority of guns currently used are for the sole purpose of injuring or killing another person--handguns, anything fully automatic, and I assume semi-autos as well, and likely some types of shotguns.

It sounds like you're trying to vilify guns in general by not mentioning any intent whatsoever.
There is evil intent.
There is righteous intent.

You come home and find a man there beating your wife and presumable about to rape her. She is crying and screaming for help. Free's going to walk away so he doesn't have to kill someone? Or call 911, lol. I doubt it brother.

 

[Free]

if you believe that then why not petition for the removal of martial arts in your country and the Olympics. judo whilst a sport now isn't new but a segment of jujitsu. which always had that to it. just as bjj is a modified version of judo. the gracies admit that they talk about it being for both sport and self-defense. I have seen judoka use it for harm.

that's my hobby.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Free]

It sounds like you're trying to vilify guns in general by not mentioning any intent whatsoever.
There is evil intent.
There is righteous intent.

You come home and find a man there beating your wife and presumable about to rape her. She is crying and screaming for help. Free's going to walk away so he doesn't have to kill someone? Or call 911, lol. I doubt it brother.

It always disturbs me when those who call themselves Christians are so ready and willing to take someone else's life. I think that in general such an attitude shows a lack of faith. Does no one believe that David fought off lions and bears, or are those just stories?

So, yes, I am vilifying guns in general. I really don't see how being ready and willing to kill another person can even have "righteous intent".

 

[Edward]

It always disturbs me when those who call themselves Christians are so ready and willing to take someone else's life. I think that in general such an attitude shows a lack of faith. Does no one believe that David fought off lions and bears, or are those just stories?

So, yes, I am vilifying guns in general. I really don't see how being ready and willing to kill another person can even have "righteous intent".

You think that I'm ready and willing to take a life? Get a grip brother, I don't want to shoot anybody. I pray that I will never have to shoot anyone. Having guns is like having an insurance policy, you are glad you have it, but you don't really want to use it.

I got (attempted) home invasion a few years ago. A big guy came to the door wanting to use my cell phone. My spidey sense was tingling so I said no...and it was on. He attacked me and tried to force his way in. We broke the glass in the screen door and it was pretty intense. Now I did have my Colt 45 on (why answer the door unarmed to someone you don't know and are not expecting?) so in a break in the fight, when I had a chance, I drew on him, expecting it to be over and for him to run...He didn't. He looks at me for about two seconds and then started forward towards me (what kind of idiot advances towards a drawn 45?! Geez.) Now, I didn't want to shoot him, just wanted him to leave.

Warning shots are frowned upon because they say that the situation should be so grave that it shouldn't be pulled unless absolutely necessary to shoot, and I agree with this. But Guns have been a big part of my life and I was very practiced up, so I considered shooting once into the grass as I retreated inside my house, hoping the sound of the shot would dissuade him and make him run...so I did, and it worked, he ran off then.

So tell me again Free, how I want to shoot someone? I did the right thing and repelled the invasion without shooting anyone. This was a big ol boy and the disparity of force was easily apparent (I'm skinny), plus, here, we have the make my day law, and I was at home. That the man was violent was demonstrated by the broken screen door...I would have been totally justified in shooting him dead, and the police told me so, that I should have shot him.

But I don't want to shoot anyone. I've read that it changes you, affects your psyche, and I don't want to carry that around with me for the rest of my fleshy life. The Lord was with me brother. He knew I didn't want to kill this man, and was with me so that I didn't have to. Praise the Lord!

Are you suggesting that I should have went into prayer when the man attacked me? I have plenty of faith in God, perhaps more than most on this board, but that wasn't the time to pray brother, it was the time to act. It was instantaneous.

Will you go into prayer when you find someone attacking your wife, like I described earlier?

 

[Obadiah]

In the area where I live now the vast majority of all guns sold (based on what I see in the stores and what I see people actually owning) are designed for sport, not for killing people. I personally don't accept the idea that because a particular thing can be used to kill a person, that killing a person has to be it's only or even it's primary purpose and therefore the thing is morally wrong and shouldn't be owned or used by Christians. If that were the case, we would have to say an awful lot of other things we have in our daily lives are also morally wrong to have or use, including almost all tools, most things in our kitchens since anything sharp like a knife is used for killing, our cars since people have purposely run down and killed people with their cars. The list would be endless. I believe this is also the analogy Jason was trying to make with martial arts as well. I don't see that as comparing apples to oranges.

It seems to me that a lot of the fear of guns these days is generated by a ratings hungry news media playing to a population that readily believe what they see in movies and on TV shows is reality, leaving them very gullible to overly dramatic twisted news stories designed to generate high ratings for the media network. Really, I've been intimately involved with a number of situations that made the news, and I saw how unbelievably badly they twist the stories to fit whatever they perceive as the popular agenda of the time. A lot of their "reports" are nothing more than fiction very loosely based on a few facts of their choosing.

I know the gun situation is bad in many of our violent inner cites because Ive been there and seen the places where most everyone that has a gun only has it with the intent of using it to shoot someone, or at least to intimidate someone while committing a robbery or other crime. When I was in Los Angeles every day multiple people were shot and killed with guns, and I never met a single person in the inner city that had a gun for hunting or target shooting. (I know some do, just saying they are rare enough in comparison that I never met them.) So I can understand how a person would have a negative perception of the use of guns when they're surrounded by that.

But even there, the media blows this perception of guns way out of proportion as out of all the guns I confiscated from criminals not one of them was a fully automatic weapon like the ones the media is trying to convince people are so common. But the perception people living in those inner city areas have of guns and they people who have them isn't reality for everyone else in the country. As Christians we have a moral obligation as best we can to strive for reality when discussing what is right or wrong for everyone else, not just decide for others based on our own limited perception of everything. I know the people living in or close to those violent places have a hard time seeing it any different, but it's a totally different situation in other areas.

Where I live now, guns are far more prevalent than even in the inner city gang areas yet I can't remember hearing of anyone in this area in the 15 years I've lived here who was shot by someone else in a crime. Without exception, every single person I know or hear of that has a gun has it for hunting, sport, or far less common for self protection (with a legally obtained permit to carry it), and I've not even heard of one person who has actually had to fire a gun in self protection. This kind of thing would have been big news around here had it happened! There is no law or moral against self protection, hunting or sport.

When it comes to teaching kids about guns, I can't see how it is any different from a dad teaching his young son the proper and safe use of a power saw or nail gun, or a mom teaching her young daughter the proper and safe use of a sharp kitchen knife.

 

[Edward]

In the area where I live now the vast majority of all guns sold (based on what I see in the stores and what I see people actually owning) are designed for sport, not for killing people. I personally don't accept the idea that because a particular thing can be used to kill a person, that killing a person has to be it's only or even it's primary purpose and therefore the thing is morally wrong and shouldn't be owned or used by Christians. If that were the case, we would have to say an awful lot of other things we have in our daily lives are also morally wrong to have or use, including almost all tools, most things in our kitchens since anything sharp like a knife is used for killing, our cars since people have purposely run down and killed people with their cars. The list would be endless. I believe this is also the analogy Jason was trying to make with martial arts as well. I don't see that as comparing apples to oranges.

it seems to me that a lot of the fear of guns these days is generated by a ratings hungry news media playing to a population that readily believe what they see in movies and on TV shows is reality, leaving them very gullible to overly dramatic twisted news stories designed to generate high ratings for the media network. Really, I've been intimately involved with a number of situations that made the news, and I saw how unbelievably badly they twist the stories to fit whatever they perceive as the popular agenda of the time. A lot of their "reports" are nothing more than fiction very loosely based on a few facts of their choosing I know the gun situation is bad in many of our violent inner cites because Ive been there and seen the places where most everyone that has a gun only has it with the intent of using it to shoot someone, or at least to intimidate someone while committing a robbery or other crime. When I was in Los Angeles every day people were shot and killed with guns, and I never met a single person in the inner city that had a gun for hunting or target shooting so I can understand how a person would have a negative perception when they are surrounded by that. (But even there the media blows it way out of proportion as out of all the guns I confiscated from criminals, not one of them was a fully automatic weapon like the ones the media is trying to convince people are so common.) But that perception people living in those areas have isn't reality for everyone else in the country. As Christians we have a moral obligation as best we can to strive for reality when discussing what is right or wrong for everyone else, not just decide based on our own limited perception of everything. I know the people living in or close to those violent places have a hard time seeing it any different, but it's a totally different situation in other areas. Where I live now guns are far more prevalent than even in the inner city gang areas, yet I can't remember hearing of anyone in this area in the 15 years I've lived here who was shot by someone else in a crime. Without exception, every single person I know or hear of that has a gun has it for hunting, sport, or far less common for self protection, and I've not even heard of one person who has actually had to fire a gun in self protection. This kind of thing would have been big news around here! There is no law or moral against self protection, hunting or sport.

When it comes to teaching kids about guns, I can't see how it is any different from a dad teaching his young son the proper and safe use of a power saw, or a mom teaching her young daughter the proper and save use of a sharp kitchen knife.

Amen brother! Though I'm pretty sure that handguns were invented with shooting people in mind (to stop fights and even the playing field) The shooting sports wasn't around in the 1800's, lol. But still, it's all in the heart of he who holds it. A bucks worth of gasoline can kill more people than even a hi-cap handgun.

There is a time to have faith in God and pray, and then there may be times where fighting is the only option. Why else would Jesus tell them to sell their cloak and buy a sword...oh, you have two? That is enough. So while we should have at least one or two, don't go overboard with them and idolize them, failing to leave room for God and His power to work.

(paragraphs brother! I had to highlight portions of your post while reading it. Hard to read when no paragraphs, lol)

 

[Obadiah]

You think that I'm ready and willing to take a life? ...I don't want to shoot anybody. I pray that I will never have to shoot anyone. Having guns is like having an insurance policy, you are glad you have it, but you don't really want to use it...

I agree. In fact, out of those I know that have carry permits, I sometimes wonder how many of them would even be able to pull the trigger in the very rare instance where they actually needed to and were justified in doing so. I strongly suspect very few of them would be able to actually do it if they ever were in that situation. For a normal person (not one who already had homicidal tendencies) the frame of mind that would allow them to actually aim and pull the trigger before it was too late takes a lot of time and effort to develop.