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The Bible Doesn't Say Anything

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Put a Bible on a coffee table, let it sit there and wait for it to speak. You'll be there all day. It says nothing because it's a Book with paper and filled with words. Words from God to be sure, but readers read to comprehend. That is the purpose of reading: To understand what is written. But it is YOU who is doing the reading and inferring from the Text. The Text isn't forcing you to think or believe the way you do.

Bible idolatry ("Bibliolatry") is one of my pet peeves. Weirdly (to me, anyway) the Bible is exalted over the Christian's day-to-day relationship with the living God through prayer and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is largely a Western evangelical phenomenon. The Catholic and Orthodox churches are not trapped in this mindset, which is a huge advantage to their members regardless of what quibbles one may have with their theology. (In my case, I have essentially no quibbles with Orthodox theology.)

Worse yet, those trapped in Bibliolatry inevitably insist that their idol is a wooden one with a fixed, definite meaning - theirs. They determine this fixed, definite meaning through gyrations that are both comical and pathetic - picking and choosing pet verses; ignoring or explaining away verses that conflict with the pet verses; insisting there is no ambiguity or disharmony when there clearly is; pulling verses out of context (proof-texting); ignoring the genre (e.g., poetry) of entire passages; pointedly ignoring Bible scholarship that might inform and challenge their interpretations; and so on ad nauseam. Prime example: this forum.

Does the Bible have a fixed, definite meaning? More to the point, was it even intended to have a fixed definite meaning? "No" to both questions. The Bible is an extremely vague, ambiguous and at least seemingly self-contradictory collection of books. And why is this? Even given the foibles of the humans through whom He spoke, could God not have expressed Himself more clearly if He had wished to do so? Could not He have laid out such key doctrines as the Trinity a lot more clearly than He did? Of course He could. Is the fault entirely ours - is a fixed, definite meaning actually there, but our flawed human natures prevent us from seeing it? Hardly - the Bible is indeed an extremely vague, ambiguous and at least seemingly self-contradictory collection of books.

One can only conclude that the Bible is either not the inspired word of God or that the vague, ambiguous, seemingly self-contradictory collection of books we have is precisely what God intended. I opt for the latter conclusion. Everyone familiar with art, poetry and literature knows that great paintings, poems and novels have no fixed, definite meaning. Every poet is pleased and astounded by the diverse interpretations readers give to his poems - interpretations completely different from what he actually had in mind but that he agrees are equally valid.

Ditto with the Bible. By definition, it must speak to all people across all cultures, life circumstances and times. Its meaning for me doesn't have to be its meaning for you. My interpretation does not become the fixed, definite meaning just because I shout you down or bludgeon you into accepting it. Your interpretation may be entirely different from mine but equally valid. Assuming that we are both reading prayerfully and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what God wants a passage to mean for you is not necessarily what He wants it to mean for me.

I've often said I could probably summarize the message of the Bible - the core teachings that aren't vague, ambiguous or seemingly self-contradictory - in three typed pages, double-spaced. If your theology is that Jesus never existed or the Resurrection never happened - well, no, the Bible is not vague or ambiguous about those things. But it is vague and ambiguous about many doctrines that those trapped in Bibliolatry regard as "essential."

Many people just can't live with ambiguity and mystery. They want a God who is the Big Daddy In the Sky, who gives them clear and specific directions as though they were toddlers. Unfortunately, this isn't what the real God has done. Rather than simply accepting this, those who can't live with ambiguity and mystery erect a wooden idol - the Bible, interpreted according to their notions of what it ought to say rather than what it actually says. I have come to regard Bibliolatry as a form of insanity, perhaps the single biggest problem with the type of Christianity represented by this forum.

This will, of course, never change, which is why I have largely abandoned forums such as this. If one can approach them strictly as "sources of information," as a way to gain information or learn about views that you may want to factor into your own understanding of Christianity, they may be useful - but few people can approach them strictly in this way, and even then there are much more efficient ways to obtain better information.

Edited. No personal attacks. If you disagree with a staff decision, take it up privately.
Moderator.
 
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I have full confidence in the Holy Spirit. I have little in man. 4 men say were led by the Holy Spirit to such an such understanding on some issue or question. Each man offers a different explanation. Each says they are simply following what the Bible "says.". Something is wrong here.
Articulation of the Truth is prone to ego-fear censorship. A potent yet subtle form is in claiming the revelation/Truth to self in one cunning way or another. The best we can do is to discern, by faith in Christ as the Teacher, in what the truth is for us. In the best case scenarios, one may determine the truth as, for example, 'to let go'. While another person determines the same truth as, 'don't hang on'. Both are different, but both are pointing to the same thing.

Unfortunately, that is not the general case scenario. We either operate out of fear (conditional) or love (unconditional). The first always reveals fear, doubt, deception, conditionality for our ego. The second always reveals the Truth, love (even tough-love), doubtlessness, clarity (obviousness to those without fear), and unconditionality (cannot be bargained with). Again, unfortunately many, including myself, get caught out by the first.
 
Honestly, one reason I now and then think about joining up w/ the RCC is because...well, thru The Magisterium and centuries of tradition, dogma, etc., they have thoughtful analysis and answers for...everything, it seems.
I recommend that you also consider the Orthodox Church for the same reasons.
 
Put a Bible on a coffee table, let it sit there and wait for it to speak. You'll be there all day. It says nothing because it's a Book with paper and filled with words. Words from God to be sure, but readers read to comprehend. That is the purpose of reading: To understand what is written. But it is YOU who is doing the reading and inferring from the Text. The Text isn't forcing you to think or believe the way you do.

People post verses to support their POV. Quoting verses and telling others what it means isn't proving your case. The Bible doesn't say anything. You have to infer the meaning from the text. Once you do that, it's not the Bible that's doing the talking, you are.

It seems many people are self-proclaimed biblical experts. Many people claimed to "know" the truth even though their claims differ from other "truth tellers."

Each side claims the other is ignoring the Scriptures or misunderstanding them. And on and on and on.

No one has a perfect theology and all of us has something wrong in our beliefs. We read the Bible and often have a knee jerk reaction to the meaning of the text. The Bible says it, and that's good enough for me!

Well as I said, no Bible has never said anything.
If the apostle Paul possessed spirit-led objectivity in interpreting Scripture, then that same capacity is available to believers today. The same Spirit that led him into that position and capacity is the same Spirit in operation today.

There are many elements that, as a whole, demonstrate accurate interpretation and correct application, such as various kinds of deliverance from bondage, out-pourings of the Holy Spirit, lost souls saved, revivalism, the sick being healed, spiritual gifts bestowed, families and communities being positively changed, etc. In other words, God's Word is Truth; the Truth sets free; if there is no freedom, then one's interpretation and/or application is in error.

God's Word itself carefully and meticulously describes the effects and consequences of correct interpretation and application. Correct interpretation/application was demonstrated in the lives of the apostles and in the lives of history's highly effective Christians. This is why it is so important to study their writings: canonical and non-canonical.
 
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can,t agree with the orthodox
Why would you feel the need to make that comment? (rhetorical question)

Just to let you know, that's "can't" , not "can,t." You use an apostrophe for a contraction, not a comma. Also, it's Orthodox (with a capital "O") because it is a proper name.

Have a great day.
 
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And yet the Bible is not word by word because many words don't translate well. Baptism is one such word as there was no English equivalent for that word.

How are you going to know that what you say lines up with exactly what is written? And why do you have to say anything at all? Just quote the Bible and say nothing else. Why not that?
Just as God Almighty was not limited in any way by the various languages of those involved in the Pentecostal experience (Acts 2:6), when He spoke to them in their own languages--He was not and is not limited by seemingly difficult to translate words nor by any language. All senses and meanings have been accurately translated into English--even to the extent of the fabrication of English words to convey those same senses and meanings. It is the case that a single Greek word sometimes requires more than one English word for accurate translation, but accurate translation is possible and has occurred. For example, the KJV translators fabricated some English words to accurately convey the meaning of certain Greek pronouns.

We must be careful not to buy into the absolute lie that something is always and necessarily lost in translating from the originals. That is simply not true and reflects naturalistic presumptions. Such presumption saturates current Bible scholarship. Accurate translation not a mere exercise in academic ability; it must be spiritually led because the subject matter is spiritual in nature and sometimes multiple options are possible in translating a particular passage. Unfortunately, there are those modern translators that have not been spiritually led in their translation work. In that case, something is lost in translation.

Contextual reading goes a long way in helping with meaning. However, the greatest hermeneutical principle that should be brought to bear is the leading (illumination) of the Holy Spirit. Scripture makes it clear that Scripture is spiritual in nature. Therefore, it can only be spiritually discerned. The second greatest principle is to ask ourselves concerning any given passage: "what is this verse or passage revealing concerning the work and person of Christ Jesus." Those two principles are all too often ignored by bible teachers and scholars. And that is sad.
 
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Bible idolatry ("Bibliolatry") is one of my pet peeves. Weirdly (to me, anyway) the Bible is exalted over the Christian's day-to-day relationship with the living God through prayer and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is largely a Western evangelical phenomenon. The Catholic and Orthodox churches are not trapped in this mindset, which is a huge advantage to their members regardless of what quibbles one may have with their theology. (In my case, I have essentially no quibbles with Orthodox theology.)

Worse yet, those trapped in Bibliolatry inevitably insist that their idol is a wooden one with a fixed, definite meaning - theirs. They determine this fixed, definite meaning through gyrations that are both comical and pathetic - picking and choosing pet verses; ignoring or explaining away verses that conflict with the pet verses; insisting there is no ambiguity or disharmony when there clearly is; pulling verses out of context (proof-texting); ignoring the genre (e.g., poetry) of entire passages; pointedly ignoring Bible scholarship that might inform and challenge their interpretations; and so on ad nauseam. Prime example: this forum.

Does the Bible have a fixed, definite meaning? More to the point, was it even intended to have a fixed definite meaning? "No" to both questions. The Bible is an extremely vague, ambiguous and at least seemingly self-contradictory collection of books. And why is this? Even given the foibles of the humans through whom He spoke, could God not have expressed Himself more clearly if He had wished to do so? Could not He have laid out such key doctrines as the Trinity a lot more clearly than He did? Of course He could. Is the fault entirely ours - is a fixed, definite meaning actually there, but our flawed human natures prevent us from seeing it? Hardly - the Bible is indeed an extremely vague, ambiguous and at least seemingly self-contradictory collection of books.

One can only conclude that the Bible is either not the inspired word of God or that the vague, ambiguous, seemingly self-contradictory collection of books we have is precisely what God intended. I opt for the latter conclusion. Everyone familiar with art, poetry and literature knows that great paintings, poems and novels have no fixed, definite meaning. Every poet is pleased and astounded by the diverse interpretations readers give to his poems - interpretations completely different from what he actually had in mind but that he agrees are equally valid.

Ditto with the Bible. By definition, it must speak to all people across all cultures, life circumstances and times. Its meaning for me doesn't have to be its meaning for you. My interpretation does not become the fixed, definite meaning just because I shout you down or bludgeon you into accepting it. Your interpretation may be entirely different from mine but equally valid. Assuming that we are both reading prayerfully and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what God wants a passage to mean for you is not necessarily what He wants it to mean for me.

I've often said I could probably summarize the message of the Bible - the core teachings that aren't vague, ambiguous or seemingly self-contradictory - in three typed pages, double-spaced. If your theology is that Jesus never existed or the Resurrection never happened - well, no, the Bible is not vague or ambiguous about those things. But it is vague and ambiguous about many doctrines that those trapped in Bibliolatry regard as "essential."

Many people just can't live with ambiguity and mystery. They want a God who is the Big Daddy In the Sky, who gives them clear and specific directions as though they were toddlers. Unfortunately, this isn't what the real God has done. Rather than simply accepting this, those who can't live with ambiguity and mystery erect a wooden idol - the Bible, interpreted according to their notions of what it ought to say rather than what it actually says. I have come to regard Bibliolatry as a form of insanity, perhaps the single biggest problem with the type of Christianity represented by this forum.

This will, of course, never change, which is why I have largely abandoned forums such as this. If one can approach them strictly as "sources of information," as a way to gain information or learn about views that you may want to factor into your own understanding of Christianity, they may be useful - but few people can approach them strictly in this way, and even then there are much more efficient ways to obtain better information.

Edited. No personal attacks. If you disagree with a staff decision, take it up privately.
Moderator.
Interesting post...
The Bible can, and often is, lifted up as an idol or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that a given person's ideas of what the Bible says is made an idol. It is very difficult to have a discussion about scripture with someone who has made an idol of their personal interpretation of scripture.

iakov the fool
 
Put a Bible on a coffee table, let it sit there and wait for it to speak. You'll be there all day. It says nothing because it's a Book with paper and filled with words. Words from God to be sure, but readers read to comprehend. That is the purpose of reading: To understand what is written. But it is YOU who is doing the reading and inferring from the Text. The Text isn't forcing you to think or believe the way you do.

People post verses to support their POV. Quoting verses and telling others what it means isn't proving your case. The Bible doesn't say anything. You have to infer the meaning from the text. Once you do that, it's not the Bible that's doing the talking, you are.

It seems many people are self-proclaimed biblical experts. Many people claimed to "know" the truth even though their claims differ from other "truth tellers."

Each side claims the other is ignoring the Scriptures or misunderstanding them. And on and on and on.

No one has a perfect theology and all of us has something wrong in our beliefs. We read the Bible and often have a knee jerk reaction to the meaning of the text. The Bible says it, and that's good enough for me!

Well as I said, no Bible has never said anything.

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16


All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:14-15



JLB
 
Why would you feel the need to make that comment? (rhetorical question)

Just to let you know, that's "can't" , not "can,t." You use an apostrophe for a contraction, not a comma. Also, it's Orthodox (with a capital "O") because it is a proper name.

Have a great day.
if i stated i do not agree with rcc then i say the same thing about Orthodox...
Just to let you know, that's "can't" , not "can,t." You use an apostrophe for a contraction, not a comma. Also, it's Orthodox (with a capital "O") because it is a proper name.
i aint very proper when it comes to English skills ..i had no idea this was English one on one . just so as you can rest easy i don,t agree with the Christian Church or Jehovah witness or Mormons or even the church of Christ..i did some research on orthodox if you want me to adress things i do not agree with i can..but that would be your choice not mine
 
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The Torah is over 5500 years old. And hasn't been changed. It has been tested by mankind over the eons and withstood every generation as absolute truth.

Not one other book or writing in existence can claim the same thing. And no other writing has as much controversy as the Bible.
The core problem is the Authority of the Bible. The Authority is absolute. But that doesn't mean that people haven't tried to change the words or meaning over the Eons.

The Samaritan/Jewish war was over a deliberate changing of scriptures.
The Church of England (and war) was created over interpretation of scriptures.
Queen Bloody Mary was over doctrine.
The original KJV was commissioned because of scriptures being kept from people.
The chapter and verse numbers were added to obfuscate scriptures because everyone was now going to have access to them.

Hermeneutics (the blend of arts and science) used to interpret scriptures aren't as difficult as they are made out to be. But people believe that God thinks of them special because of their special brand of righteousness... always have. Despite the Bible's clear instructions to the contrary. So they might the Bible say what they wish it to say.

Enter the commentaries...
And then scriptures are sidelined so much that they are not used or read.
But God always has a Martin Luther up his sleeve to bring them out.

Today's "progressives" don't believe in scriptures. (Except for very limited amounts) and definitely want to avoid any "controversial" scriptures such as prophesies and statements from Jesus like :"I am the Way, Truth, and Life, and no one comes to the Father except through me"

The Bible has no contradictory messages either. That is simply Atheists making false claims to discredit scriptures. Any serious Bible study shows this lie quite clearly.

People never wish or enjoy being wrong. Myself a chief amongst them. And the natural tendency is to see if God agrees with us...and inadvertently make it so. When we really need to see if what we think agrees with God. A subtle and almost imperceptible difference but major in destination. And there in lies the Crux of the issue.
 
good post i like this part ------>
The Bible has no contradictory messages either. That is simply Atheists making false claims to discredit scriptures. Any serious Bible study shows this lie quite clearly.

People never wish or enjoy being wrong. Myself a chief amongst them. And the natural tendency is to see if God agrees with us...and inadvertently make it so. When we really need to see if what we think agrees with God. A subtle and almost imperceptible difference but major in destination. And there in lies the Crux of the issue.
in my study i try to keep and open mind to change led by the spirit... some areas i have had to change my belief .but you are correct no body likes to be wrong...

my biggest beef is {corrected due to my using the wrong words} { those who feel their church doctrine is Superior over others} . we are all in this walk trying/striving to do the best we can through Christ. . i have a brother who pastor a church. i respect him very deeply. but do not agree with him on every issue .me i am more evangelistic i love to pastor .but i do more type evangelist at the moment ..mainly due to carnal ways in a church. when man steps over scriptures to make his belief. that creates a error
 
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Put a Bible on a coffee table, let it sit there and wait for it to speak. You'll be there all day. It says nothing because it's a Book with paper and filled with words. Words from God to be sure, but readers read to comprehend. That is the purpose of reading: To understand what is written. But it is YOU who is doing the reading and inferring from the Text. The Text isn't forcing you to think or believe the way you do.

People post verses to support their POV. Quoting verses and telling others what it means isn't proving your case. The Bible doesn't say anything. You have to infer the meaning from the text. Once you do that, it's not the Bible that's doing the talking, you are.

It seems many people are self-proclaimed biblical experts. Many people claimed to "know" the truth even though their claims differ from other "truth tellers."

Each side claims the other is ignoring the Scriptures or misunderstanding them. And on and on and on.

No one has a perfect theology and all of us has something wrong in our beliefs. We read the Bible and often have a knee jerk reaction to the meaning of the text. The Bible says it, and that's good enough for me!

Well as I said, no Bible has never said anything.
From Pentecost on, there have been Heretics and false teachers,(2 Tim. 3:1-17) (2 Pet. 2:1-22) even unto this day.(1 Thes. 5:1-28) But God speaks clear to His own.(John 16:29-30) The born again believer teaches and speaks as he has been spoken to. We do not speak on our own but we speak the words of the Father. We are one with the Father and one with Christ as born again believers.(John 17:9-26). The question is, do you or we know what is false? For the born again the answer is yes. For we do not speak on our own. You must be born again.(Rom. 8:5-27) Teachers and preachers are called, it is not a self willed profession.(Romans 10:8-17) (1 Cor. 12:1-13)
 
From Pentecost on, there have been Heretics and false teachers,(2 Tim. 3:1-17) (2 Pet. 2:1-22) even unto this day.(1 Thes. 5:1-28) But God speaks clear to His own.(John 16:29-30) The born again believer teaches and speaks as he has been spoken to. We do not speak on our own but we speak the words of the Father. We are one with the Father and one with Christ as born again believers.(John 17:9-26). The question is, do you or we know what is false? For the born again the answer is yes. For we do not speak on our own. You must be born again.(Rom. 8:5-27) Teachers and preachers are called, it is not a self willed profession.(Romans 10:8-17) (1 Cor. 12:1-13)
God may speak clearly but Christians don't hear clearly. There are 4 major views on Hell and 4 major views on Eternal Security plus several views on the role of Water Baptism in a believer's life. Do we as believers always know what is false? NO We do not. It's clear from all the competing ideas and interpretations out there. God isn't the problem, we are.
 
I find that amusing that the Bible speaks so plainly it needs to be explained.

.
Papa, I like the article however not all can understand even the so-called simplest of doctrines, and none of us I reckon can ever fully understand " We know in part because we see in part"
Rough paraphrase.

Romans 10:14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things...

And then through the infilling of the Holy Spirit, we can understand what is written, if we are able to -study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth 2 Tim 2:15

And then we shall be able to - shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness 2 Tim 2:16
 
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things...

Through the infilling of the Holy Spirit, we can understand the written Word of God, if we are able to study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15).

And then, through the power of the Holy Spirit, we shall be able to shun or turn away from profane and vain babblings, for they will only increase unto more ungodliness (2 Tim 2:16).

Papa, I will have to use this in my next article thanks for starting the discussion.
 
God may speak clearly but Christians don't hear clearly. There are 4 major views on Hell and 4 major views on Eternal Security plus several views on the role of Water Baptism in a believer's life. Do we as believers always know what is false? NO We do not. It's clear from all the competing ideas and interpretations out there. God isn't the problem, we are.
Lumping all Christians as born again believers does not fit, there are tares among the wheat that give confusion and a bad name to the born again believer. It is not diversity of beliefs, it is a plant to disrupt, by the enemy. (Matt. 13:24-30)
 
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