The difference in the rapture and the second coming

[Gregg]

The proof is in the text of Revelation -- in the warp and woof of the judgments themselves. You do not catch a glimpse of the Church ON EARTH. Period.

I am not saying the Church will encounter God's wrath; but those who are alive and remain will see the beginning of it from afar. Some of the saints will suffer tribulation, some death by agents of the Antichrist (Rev 13:7), and the two witnesses will be killed by the false prophet (Rev 11:7) - but these things do not happen to the saints because of God's wrath.

It is you who do not 'catch a glimpse of the Church ON EARTH' during the tribulation, but I will provide several verses that clearly indicate the presence of the Church on earth until 10-15 days before the LORD returns.

- "And there was given to each one a white robe. And it was said to them that they should rest yet a little time, until might be fulfilled also the number of their fellow-slaves and their brothers, those being about to be killed, even as they" (Rev 6:11 LITV). Christian martyrs are added concurrent with and following the opening of the 5th seal.
- "Do not harm the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, until we seal the slaves of our God on their foreheads" (Rev 7:3 LITV). Jews receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when they are born again during the Tribulation.
- ". . . These are [present act. indicative] those coming [present mid. participle] out of the great tribulation; and they washed [aorist act. indicative] their robes and whitened them in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev 7:14 LITV). The lead verb is 'are' and is present act. This established a frame of reference to time. At that time John is seeing saints wearing white robes and coming out of the Tribulation. This is not one group coming out of the Trib. in mass, but innumerable individuals and their numbers are being constantly added to. John is seeing their numbers grow as he is watching the vision. Prior to the vision, those wearing white robes washed them in Christ's blood; that is they were born again at a time prior to when John was seeing them. This is an indication of Christians who were alive on earth during the Trib., and is supported by another description of them in the preceding verse, "the ones having been clothed [perfect passive participle] in the white robes" (Rev 7:13). They were clothed before this vision.
- "And it was said to them that they should not harm the grass of the earth, nor every green thing, nor every tree, except only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads" (Rev 9:4 LITV). So there are those present at this time that have the seal of God; they are Christians present on earth between the 5th and 6th Trumpet.
- "but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, whenever he is about to trumpet, was even ended the mystery of God, as He preached to His slaves, the prophets" (Rev 10:7 LITV). This statement regards time between the 6th Trumpet but before the 7th Trumpet is sounded. During this time the 'mystery of God' is ended. The mystery of God is Christ and His indwelling believers, that is the Church. And this fits well with the following two verses which I mentioned in post #252:

1) after the 6th seal/before the 7th: earthquake, stars falling, "the heaven departed like a scroll being rolled up" (Rev 6:14)
2) after the 6th trumpet/before the 7th trumpet: "Come up here. And they went up into the heaven in the cloud" (Rev 11:12).​

- "And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17 LITV). Satan making war with believers, with the saints as in Rev 13:7.​

The whole Tribulation and Great Tribulation period is a time of wrath and judgment.

Why do you keep saying that when it has been demonstrated otherwise?

Therefore we see the exhortation to the church of Philadelphia, applicable to the whole true Church per se (Rev 3:10):
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Keeping saints from the hour of temptation does not equate with keeping saints away from earth during that hour.

Let me then show you Scripture by Scripture, that there is no Church in these passages:
Rev 6:14 -- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. The plain literal meaning of this is that the atmospheric/stratospheric heaven will be "rolled up" (disappear) and every mountain and island on this earth will be violently shifted from where they stand and "moved out of their places" -- a cataclysmic and catastrophic judgment. No Church.
Rev 11:12 -- And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. The context makes it clear that this is addressed to the two human witnesses (prophets Moses and Elijah) who are killed by the Beast and resurrected by God. This has to be really twisted or spiritualized to apply it to the Church. And notice that this is specifically from earthly Jerusalem (called Sodom and Egypt).
Rev 14:6 -- And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. It would take a major leap of imagination (or "faith") to make this angel into the Church.

We were not discussing the "relevance" of these churches or their prophetic application to the Church age. That is not under cosideration.

What in Rev 6:14 excludes the presence of the Church on earth? It is that very event which describes the LORD rending the atmosphere to collect His Church on earth. The sky is described as a scroll being rolled up because the LORD's testimony through the Church has ended: the fulfillment of that preached to Daniel (Rev 10:2, Dan 12:7), of that given to His Apostle (Rev 10:11), and of that given to His two prophets who die after completing their witness (Rev 11:7) - and so the sky is rolled up like a scroll when its contents have been read and/or accomplished.

re Rev 11:12 - Do you think Moses is going to die twice? Please, that would be a reach. And if the other witness is Elijah - then was John the Baptist Elijah? I think not, but one like him. One of the two witnesses will be like Elijah, but not Elijah himself.

re Rev 14:6 - I do not think that angel is the Church, but rather is representative of the Church who has the Gospel and preaches it during the Tribulation. No imagination necessary . . . but faith is necessary to preach the Gospel during the Tribulation.

If you have paid attention to how I post, I never "toss statements" into the forum. Be that as it may, the first five seals include the following judgments: (1) false messiahs, (2) warfare on earth in general, and no lasting peace, (3) famines and food scarcity, (4) warfare, famine, death by any and all means (with the second death applicable to many -- hence "hell"), death from the animal kingdom (including pestilences), (5) Christian martyred for their faith.

Then according to the 5th seal, as you say Christians martyred for their faith, the Church [made of Christians] is present during this time. If I recall, you have said in at least 2 other posts that only Rev ch's 1-3 have to do with the Church. Have you changed you mind since making those posts?

I trust you get the picture.

I do not get your picture regarding the timing of the Rapture, for which I am grateful.

 

[n2thelight]

Yes,that is what the Bible says.

So why may I ask is the pre tribbers need to read the book of Rev

 

[n2thelight]

Well I don't think a believer could be apostate without knowing it.

They can when God sends the spirit of slumber

The subject being discussed in both I and 2 Thessalonians is our gathering back to Christ at the 2nd Advent. Not before, in some fly away rapture.
2 Thess 2:1

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The Greek is very specific and strict as to the subject. Again, what is the subject? The coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him. Not very difficult is it?
2 Thess 2:2

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul doesn't want you to be confused by some man's or evil spirit. Nor by word by a so-called teacher or even by letter from Paul concerning the return of Christ.
2 Thess 2:3

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This is the beginning of a number of events that MUST take place first. A falling away or apostasy will occur. What is apostasy? Apostasy is a giving up of one's professed belief. For example worshipping a false messiah thinking he is the True One.
The son of perdition will be revealed upon the earth. Now, there is only one son of perdition, only one at this time is sentenced to perish in the lake of fire. That entity is none other than Satan himself.
2 Thess 2:4

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

He will exalt himself above Christ and God, even those who worship in another religion. He will sit in the temple of God claiming to be God. Where is this? It is in Jerusalem, God's most favorite place which he has made a covenant with in Ezekiel 16. This is the antichrist or better said the instead of Christ. For he will call himself Christ. Many who don't read God's Word but rather listen to men who say "Don't worry, just have faith your going to be gone anyway" are going to be deceived believing he is the True Christ.
2 Thess 2:5

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

I'm sure Paul went over this in detail with them before. Paul wrote this second letter to them because man and the first one confused them.
2 Thess 2:6-7

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Now many so-called "scholars" say this is the Holy Spirit. No it isn't. The verb here is transitive, which means you have to transfer it back to the subject being discussed. What is the subject? The son of perdition sitting in the seat of God as savior.
Where is Satan now? According to Revelation 12:7 he is in heaven. Not free though but held in chains. The archangel Michael will cast him out onto the earth and the angels will rejoice, but woe unto you on earth. This hasn't happened yet friends. Sure, his evil spirit has free reign on the earth but he's not here de facto, in person yet.
What is the iniquity that is already working? You already know if you understand the four hidden dynasties of religion, education, political, and the economy.
2 Thess 2:8

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Then is after the tribulation of antichrist. There are two tribulations; antichrist's and God's. Both will not harm God's children. The Lord shall consume him with his mouth. What is in His mouth? A sharp two-edged sword (Revelation 1:16). Antichrist will also be consumed at the True Christ's return.
2 Thess 2:9

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

He will be all-powerful and supernatural performing miracles in the sight of men bringing down lightning at the snap of his fingers (Rev. 13:13). People will believe he is Christ and this when the delivering up to death, who is the devil (Heb. 2:14), happens. Believing he is Christ people will deliver their loved ones up to be "Saved".
2 Thess 2:10

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They loved not God's Word enough to study it. They are spiritually dead until they are tested again and at that point if they do not straighten up shall perish.
2 Thess 2:11

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Here is your reason for God sending strong delusion. YHVH shall do it because they deserve it. If they do not study to understand these things God will let them be deceived. It may also be that they could not stand against antichrist and have the knowledge without worshipping antichrist. That would be the unforgivable sin. After being repeatedly warned in the Bible again and again then they must learn the hard way.
Is this written anywhere else in God's Word? Yes, in the Book of Romans. Turn there and go to chapter 11.
Rom 11:1

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul was a Benjamite. He was a Roman by birth but a Benjamite by seed.
Rom 11:2-3

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."

Jezebel was having the priests killed and sought Elijah's life also.
Rom 11:4

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

All through the years God has had a remnant. A remnant that would always be faithful. God has reserved 7,000 men, no gender intended there. Seven means spiritual completeness. There will be many more than that of God's election here when antichrist appears including the kings and queens of the ethnos or ethnic peoples. But whatever number it is that is the number, it is a perfect number.
Rom 11:5

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

There has always been a remnant that understands.
Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

This is confusing not knowing the difference between election and free will. The elect were chosen before the foundation of this earth age (Eph. 1:4) at the time of the overthrow of Satan. God will intercede in their lives and those with free will He will not unless they ask. The elect are not perfect however and were not chosen because they are better than anyone else. But because they stood against Satan in the age before this one.
Rom 11:7-8

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded Israel couldn't cut it by the law and commandments of God. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day.

I say even unto this very day. When God has sent this slumber or stupor, upon one no matter how hard the Elect try to make them see they cannot see the truth. Why? They asked for it. As Paul said in 2 Cor. 11 they like to be deceived and swallow it hook, line, and sinker. Look at the people today. They don't know what to believe or even believe there is a God and with what is taught today, they haven't got a chance against antichrist. They will have that chance during the Millennium.

 

[JLB]

The proof is in the text of Revelation -- in the warp and woof of the judgments themselves. You do not catch a glimpse of the Church ON EARTH. Period.

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
(1 Thess 5:9-11).
The whole Tribulation and Great Tribulation period is a time of wrath and judgment. Therefore we see the exhortation to the church of Philadelphia, applicable to the whole true Church per se (Rev 3:10):
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Let me then show you Scripture by Scripture, that there is no Church in these passages:
Rev 6:14 -- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. The plain literal meaning of this is that the atmospheric/stratospheric heaven will be "rolled up" (disappear) and every mountain and island on this earth will be violently shifted from where they stand and "moved out of their places" -- a cataclysmic and catastrophic judgment. No Church.
Rev 11:12 -- And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. The context makes it clear that this is addressed to the two human witnesses (prophets Moses and Elijah) who are killed by the Beast and resurrected by God. This has to be really twisted or spiritualized to apply it to the Church. And notice that this is specifically from earthly Jerusalem (called Sodom and Egypt).
Rev 14:6 -- And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. It would take a major leap of imagination (or "faith") to make this angel into the Church.

We were not discussing the "relevance" of these churches or their prophetic application to the Church age. That is not under cosideration.

If you have paid attention to how I post, I never "toss statements" into the forum. Be that as it may, the first five seals include the following judgments: (1) false messiahs, (2) warfare on earth in general, and no lasting peace, (3) famines and food scarcity, (4) warfare, famine, death by any and all means (with the second death applicable to many -- hence "hell"), death from the animal kingdom (including pestilences), (5) Christian martyred for their faith.
Now lets look at Mt 24:4-12 and see what the "beginning of sorrows" is all about:
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
I trust you get the picture.

The picture is clear.

Jesus was speaking to His disciples privately.

Jesus was teaching those who would go out and make disciples and bring the gentiles into the church.

Jesus was passing on to these future Church leaders, a private lesson about His Coming and the end of the age.

These future Church leaders were to make disciples and teach the Church these very things.

Here is the one of the first things that they would teach the Church -

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


This is the answer to the question that was asked of Him by His disciples -

And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

His Coming and the end of the age and the Resurrection of the dead in Christ [which comes before the rapture] is after the tribulation.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

They can when God sends the spirit of slumber

Romans 11 - When God sent the spirit of slumber they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah and therefore were not turning away from something they previously believed.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This is the beginning of a number of events that MUST take place first. A falling away or apostasy will occur. What is apostasy? Apostasy is a giving up of one's professed belief. For example worshipping a false messiah thinking he is the True One.
The son of perdition will be revealed upon the earth. Now, there is only one son of perdition, only one at this time is sentenced to perish in the lake of fire. That entity is none other than Satan himself.

False, Judas is also called the son of perdition. John 17:12.
I don't see the definition of apostasy including being fooled by something or someone. It is a choice that one makes to turn away from something. Such as no longer agreeing that the shed blood of Christ is the only atonement for sin and agreeing that there is some other means of atonement. Such as the blood of bulls and goats to atone for sin.
Or even no means of atonement or no longer agreeing that one even needs atonement at all.
If I were to reject Christianity in favor of Judaism I would be apostate from the Christian faith.
Paul says that God has reconciled Himself to the world through Christ. Therefore, Reconcile yourself to Him. It is a choice one makes. It is a choice to be obedient to the Gospel message and it is a choice to reject it.

 

[n2thelight]

Romans 11 - When God sent the spirit of slumber they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah and therefore were not turning away from something they previously believed.


False, Judas is also called the son of perdition. John 17:12.
I don't see the definition of apostasy including being fooled by something or someone. It is a choice that one makes to turn away from something. Such as no longer agreeing that the shed blood of Christ is the only atonement for sin and agreeing that there is some other means of atonement. Such as the blood of bulls and goats to atone for sin.
Or even no means of atonement or no longer agreeing that one even needs atonement at all.
If I were to reject Christianity in favor of Judaism I would be apostate from the Christian faith.
Paul says that God has reconciled Himself to the world through Christ. Therefore, Reconcile yourself to Him. It is a choice one makes. It is a choice to be obedient to the Gospel message and it is a choice to reject it.

Yes Judas is called son of perdition however,he is not THE son of perdition,only satan fits that description

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

Ezekiel 28:18"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Christians (not all)will turn away from the true Christ,and follow satan in ignorance,thinking him to be Christ...

That's the danger of the rapture doctrine....

 

[n2thelight]

What is the hidden danger of Rapture 'Doctrines' ?:

Some might say that as long as those who believe in a Rapture also believe upon Jesus Christ, what harm could it do to believe that they will be 'taken' in a Rapture before the antichrist comes. It would possibly do you no everlasting harm to believe in a Rapture theory your whole Christian life, then in the process of time die before you unwittingly worship the false christ. Those who have in good faith, believed in a Rapture doctrine and have passed on in times past will not have the opportunity to worship the false christ antichrist when he comes, because they truly "will be gone.' The only concern they may have is that they undoubtedly have led many others astray by teaching the false doctrine of Rapture, and those that they taught might be here when antichrist comes. But like I said, there is a certain innocence in ignorance and let God be the Judge. We judge no man, although we do discern false doctrine and speak against them with the Holy Scriptures of God as our Witness.

God's Elect shall be on the earth during the Great Tribulation, there will be no "Rapture of the righteous!" What did Jesus mean when He said: "Behold, I have told you before."? {Mat 24:25}. He was telling us about the false messiah, the spurious messiah, the antichrist whom is satan that shall come to this earth claiming to be the true Messiah. Many on the earth who are waiting for a 'Rapture of the Saints' before the Second Advent will believe that the antichrist truly is the Messiah Jesus Christ. That is the danger in the Rapture theories (among the other false church systems, dogmas, and doctrines of men), they don't warn the people that there are two saviors coming, first, the false savior antichrist, then after him, the True Savior Messiah Jesus Christ comes at His Second Advent. Hence Jesus mused: "...Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" {Luke 18:8}. Will He?!? Will he find you being faithful or worshipping satan the antichrist, waiting in line to be Raptured somewhere? God knows.

Mark 13:23-27
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (KJV)
And really, isn't the Rapture theory just another way of man manufacturing a second chance? Just as with Buddhism (another lie from satan), where if you don't get it right in this life time you can be reincarnated for another chance. In the same way, do not the Rapture doctors teach you what to do if you 'miss the boat' on the Rapture? Sure they do, they even have movies and books dedicated to guiding those who weren't Raptured. The "Left behind" series is one such farce, supported by most of the more vocal Rapture doctors.

Beloved, there is no second chance, is it not written: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" {Heb 9:27}. A Rapture of some before the end, would constitute a second chance for those not taken who did not overcome and were not taken up in the first out-gathering. There are no second chances!

If you believe in a Rapture doctrine, any rapture doctrine, here is what is sadly going to happen to you: The end times will come upon us in this generation as the Bible states that they shall: " Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." {Luke 21:32}.
And then there will be 'one' who comes stating that he is the Messiah of God. This 'one', "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." {2nd Thes 2:4}, will state that he is here to save the world from itself and from their sins.

You will observe that you were not raptured out of here and that that there was in fact no Rapture. You will begin to wonder if this one is truly Jesus Christ or the impostor (whom the Rapturist hasn't been warned about). However, you will be totally unprepared to make that judgment because you had spent your whole Christian life waiting to removed before this time came.

You will have absolutely no chance to withstand the deception because quite frankly, you have been kept ignorant to the prophecies of it's very existence, and thus wholly unprepared to discern the events that are transpiring around you in rapid-fire succession. You are exactly where satan has craftily led you.
We do not want this to happen to you, for we know that the Rapturist' truly do love the Lord and abhor the devil. Don't allow satan to prostitute your soul, which, while not a very nice way to put it, is in fact what shall transpire if you do not stop listening to false teachers and start listening to your Heavenly Father and study His Word, the Bible, instead of the non-Biblical fantasies dreamed up by the Rapture teachers.

Sorry friend; But satan wants you to think there is always time later to obey God, always time later to study His letter to you, the Bible that containing all warnings; always time later....

'Later' never comes until it is 'now,' and then it is too late, satan knows this. You must study God's Word now, for all true wisdom comes from God: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." {Prov 1:7}. It is the wisdom of our Heavenly Father's Word, contained in the Bible, that shall protect us from the deception and false doctrines of men of reprobate hearts.

Prov 4:1-7
1 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.
2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. (KJV)

 

[n2thelight]

What I can't figure out is,why you'll think you will escape the trib when the Word is full of Christians going through it

But the Lord is with me as a dread warrior;therefore my persecutors will stumble;they will not overcome me.They will be greatly shamed,for they will not succeed.Their eternal dishonorwill never be forgotten.
—Jeremiah 20:11

Matthew 5:10-12
“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
—Matthew 5:10-12

John 15:18-20
“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
—John 15:18-20

Acts 14:21-22
When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
—Acts 14:21-22

Romans 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
—Romans 8:35-39

2 Corinthians 4:8-11
We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
—2 Corinthians 4:8-11

2 Corinthians 12:10
For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
—2 Corinthians 12:10

2 Timothy 3:12
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
—2 Timothy 3:12

1 Peter 4:12-14
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.
1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
—1 Peter 4:12-14, 16

There's more,but one should get the picture.....And then we have the verse below

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Ive yet to find anyone that can show me scripture of our being gone before the tribulation,and I also wonder why you'll fear it........

Matthew 10:28"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

The tribulation is all about deception,with the state of your soul at stake,not your flesh body,we are told to stay in the field working,not hope to fly away...We are to make a stand against satan,not run from him....

I tell you what,it's gonna be a rude awakening when satan comes here live and in person....

 

[Deborah13]

Yes Judas is called son of perdition however,he is not THE son of perdition,only satan fits that description

No wait a minute. That is what you believe but does any scripture say that? Capitalizing THE doesn't make it so.
I would translation that as "the son of" 'destruction'.
Judas was "the son of destruction"
the man of sin is "the son of destruction"

That's the danger of the rapture doctrine....

Well, I don't believe the rapture doctrine.

 

[JLB]

Well, I don't believe the rapture doctrine.

 

[n2thelight]

No wait a minute. That is what you believe but does any scripture say that? Capitalizing THE doesn't make it so.
I would translation that as "the son of" 'destruction'.
Judas was "the son of destruction"
the man of sin is "the son of destruction"

Well, I don't believe the rapture doctrine.

Good that you don't,however satan is the son of perdition...Or are you saying 2 Thess 2:3 is talking about Judas?

 

[Deborah13]

Good that you don't,however satan is the son of perdition...Or are you saying 2 Thess 2:3 is talking about Judas?

I'm saying the scripture does not say that the man of sin is satan.

 

[Malachi]

What I can't figure out is,why you'll think you will escape the trib when the Word is full of Christians going through it

Because you are trying to "figure it out". You have quoted numerous Scriptures, and posted several posts, but none of those Scripture prove that there is no pre-tribulation Rapture.

Your error is in equating the trials, tribulations, and afflictions of Christians in the world with the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. You need to go back and try and understand the differences, as well as the reasons for each.

Unless you (or anyone who dismisses the pre-tribulation Rapture) can clearly show from Scripture (specifically the book of Revelation which is primarily focused on those judgments) that the saints are actually being taken up to Heaven while the Tribulation or Great Tribulation is in progress, all your lengthy diatribes against this doctrine mean nothing. What Rev 19:11-16 clearly shows is CHRIST COMING WITH HIS SAINTS. Period. How and when they got to Heaven is not shown in Revelation.

There is huge opposition to the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church (which makes no sense whatsoever, unless one sees it as a device of Satan to divide Christians). But when the naysayers are asked to show exactly when and where during or after the Tribulation or Great Tribulation the saints are literally being called up to Heaven, there is nothing but vain attempts to somehow discern the Rapture where it does not exist (see some of my comments above on some irrelevant verses in Revelation).

People can believe whatever they choose to believe. But if you cannot provide chapter and verse for your refutation, it is all simply noise and propaganda. And to call a Bible truth a "theory" is even more pathetic. No revelation from God may be downgraded to a "theory".

 

[n2thelight]

I'm saying the scripture does not say that the man of sin is satan.

The next verse gives you the who...

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

This is none other than satan,he's trying to do again what he was already sentenced to death for...Let's go to Isiah for more proof

Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lu'-ci-fer [day star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Lucifer then is another name for Satan; he is also called the Dragon, the serpent, and many other names accounting for the roles he plays, and in our generation he will also be called the "Antichrist".

Isaiah 14:13; "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Satan is saying, I'm going to be God, and be above the sons [stars] of God. The "mount of the congregation" is on mount Zion; and that is "the side of the north" where Jesus Christ's temple will be.

Isaiah 14:14; "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Satan is saying again, he is going to be God.

Isaiah 14:15; "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit."

Who is this that is going into the pit? Who is this son of perdition? It is Lucifer, who is Satan, the "son of perdition". The "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2:3 is none other than Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ. Paul then is saying that the true Christ, Jesus Christ, will not return to earth until this "apostasy" takes place first.

Isaiah 14:16; "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

 

[Deborah13]

The next verse gives you the who...

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

This is none other than satan,he's trying to do again what he was already sentenced to death for...Let's go to Isiah for more proof

Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lu'-ci-fer [day star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Lucifer then is another name for Satan; he is also called the Dragon, the serpent, and many other names accounting for the roles he plays, and in our generation he will also be called the "Antichrist".

Isaiah 14:13; "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Satan is saying, I'm going to be God, and be above the sons [stars] of God. The "mount of the congregation" is on mount Zion; and that is "the side of the north" where Jesus Christ's temple will be.

Isaiah 14:14; "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Satan is saying again, he is going to be God.

Isaiah 14:15; "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit."

Who is this that is going into the pit? Who is this son of perdition? It is Lucifer, who is Satan, the "son of perdition". The "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2:3 is none other than Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ. Paul then is saying that the true Christ, Jesus Christ, will not return to earth until this "apostasy" takes place first.

Isaiah 14:16; "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Yeah well he already tried that and he's already been judged for it.

You can interpret that the man of sin is satan but it doesn't say that and neither does the next verse.

There have been many, many men who have exalted themselves above God.
In Rome if one did not worship the current Emperor as god, they could be put to death, refused jobs, etc, etc.
They were crucified, burned at the stake, fed to wild beasts, and lit up as torches in the Emperor's garden. That is why so many Jews and Christians were out of favor with Rome. They refused to bow down to him as god.
Read the history of the early church in Rome.

 

[n2thelight]

Because you are trying to "figure it out". You have quoted numerous Scriptures, and posted several posts, but none of those Scripture prove that there is no pre-tribulation Rapture.

Your error is in equating the trials, tribulations, and afflictions of Christians in the world with the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. You need to go back and try and understand the differences, as well as the reasons for each.

Unless you (or anyone who dismisses the pre-tribulation Rapture) can clearly show from Scripture (specifically the book of Revelation which is primarily focused on those judgments) that the saints are actually being taken up to Heaven while the Tribulation or Great Tribulation is in progress, all your lengthy diatribes against this doctrine mean nothing. What Rev 19:11-16 clearly shows is CHRIST COMING WITH HIS SAINTS. Period. How and when they got to Heaven is not shown in Revelation.

There is huge opposition to the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church (which makes no sense whatsoever, unless one sees it as a device of Satan to divide Christians). But when the naysayers are asked to show exactly when and where during or after the Tribulation or Great Tribulation the saints are literally being called up to Heaven, there is nothing but vain attempts to somehow discern the Rapture where it does not exist (see some of my comments above on some irrelevant verses in Revelation).

People can believe whatever they choose to believe. But if you cannot provide chapter and verse for your refutation, it is all simply noise and propaganda. And to call a Bible truth a "theory" is even more pathetic. No revelation from God may be downgraded to a "theory".

They got there(Heaven)when they died.....

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"
These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."
Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Nobody goes to Heaven unless they die,Christ comes here,we don't go there.....

As for it being called a theory,that's all it is,as it is not now,then or ever will be a revelation of truth.....

Simple question when did Christ himself say He would return?Let me answer it for you

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Now what part of after don't you'll understand?

How does scripture say He returns?

Acts 1:11 "Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."

 

[n2thelight]

Yeah well he already tried that and he's already been judged for it.

You can interpret that the man of sin is satan but it doesn't say that and neither does the next verse.

There have been many, many men who have exalted themselves above God.
In Rome if one did not worship the current Emperor as god, they could be put to death, refused jobs, etc, etc.
They were crucified, burned at the stake, fed to wild beasts, and lit up as torches in the Emperor's garden. That is why so many Jews and Christians were out of favor with Rome. They refused to bow down to him as god.
Read the history of the early church in Rome.

Don't need to read the history I know many men may have claimed,but none of them walked in the garden of God,none of them were the covering cherub and none of them fell from Heaven as verse 12 states

Let's go to Ezekiel for another witness

Ezekiel 28:13 "Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the Sardis, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."
Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Ezekiel 28:16 "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

This is the same person from Thess and Isiah

 

[n2thelight]

And none of them did this from the below either

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

This is the whole object for the great tribulation. "DECEPTION"! Satan is going to make an image of this "one world system" [religious beast] and breath life into system. Their will be something symbolic created within the system that will cause the whole world to bow. This reminds me of the "image" created in Babylon's "one world government" under king Nebuchadnezzar, in Daniel 3. At that time there were only three that would not bow to the image.

Again all the same person..........satan

 

[Malachi]

They got there(Heaven)when they died.....
Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"
These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

So what you have now suggested is THAT THE WHOLE CHURCH WILL BE MARTYRED. But that contradicts Scripture, and it does not even make a reference to the Rapture.

The whole Church will NOT be martyred according to 1 Thess 4:13-18:
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I trust you will read verse 17 slowly and carefully and digest every word, since that verse totally refutes your idea that the whole church will be martyred, killed, slain. If this is the best you can do, perhaps you should quit ranting against the pre-tribulation Rapture and really study this subject.

 

[n2thelight]

So what you have now suggested is THAT THE WHOLE CHURCH WILL BE MARTYRED. But that contradicts Scripture, and it does not even make a reference to the Rapture.

The whole Church will NOT be martyred according to 1 Thess 4:13-18:
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I trust you will read verse 17 slowly and carefully and digest every word, since that verse totally refutes your idea that the whole church will be martyred, killed, slain. If this is the best you can do, perhaps you should quit ranting against the pre-tribulation Rapture and really study this subject.

I never said the whole Church will be martyred

Here's the point,at death ALL return to God, v17 simply means that those alive at the 2nd coming will be changed to like those who have already passed...We can't prevent those who are sleep(dead)for the simple fact that they are already with Him....That's how they come back with Him when He returns......

And Im not ranting unless you consider scripture ranting,if so,that I shall keep doing....Again find me one verse in all of scripture which states the Church will be gone before the tribulation......

Bottom line Christ comes here at the last trump,which is the 7th,so simple.....

Ok, did the Scriptures tell us in what manner Jesus Christ shall return to us at the Second Advent. You know it did, as the Scriptures tell us of all things. In the book of Acts, we see Christ leaving the earth and returning to Heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God till this day. Let's join in on the last conversation that Christ had face-to-face with His Disciples:

Acts 1:6-12
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (KJV)
Oh-oh, there's that word 'clouds' again. The Rapturist is twitching right about now. Let's allow the two Angels of God (the two men stood in white apparel) to clarify what this means for us in the next verse:
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. (KJV)

Does this say that they will someday be raptured up into a cloud to go to Jesus, or, does it say that Jesus shall RETURN to them the SAME way He left them on the earth, from the Mount of Olives at Jerusalem? The term 'clouds' simply refers to innumerable company of Angels in the Heavens that met Christ at the ascension from the Mount of Olives and the same that shall return with Him at the Second Advent to execute wrath upon a disobedient world who is worshiping the false christ, and terminate this earth age. I bet our Sunday-schoolers got it right. But like I said, whenever the rapturist sees the word 'clouds' his mind gets cloudy.

It also speaks of the Second Advent in { Rev 1:7} where it states that Christ will appear with clouds (multitudes) and come down to earth. It says in {Zech 14:4} that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If at Jesus Christ' next (and only) coming, He is standing on the Mount of Olives, where in the heck did the Rapture saints go prior to this, and with whom did they go? Answer: They were taken in deception by the first messiah, the false messiah, the false christ antichrist. They didn't physically go anywhere, they just spiritually whored after the wrong christ, the antichrist, which is to say satan. Is this not crystal clear?!?
In their fear, the rapturist has devised an imaginary escape plan from the end-time prophesies of God. Oh how satan loves to play upon fear. They would be better to have faith that God shall protect them as He has promised them that He would during the Great Tribulation. Stand up and act like a man, woman, or child of God and quit cowering to satan, he cannot hurt those who have the seal of God in their forehead, that is to say, God's truth! Learn the truth and be set free from the bondage of fear.