The "EVENTS" of salvation.

[Cygnus]

This theological discussion should be interesting...what is the order of events in the process of salvation when it is applied to an individual?

What happens first? Belief or repentance? Regeneration or belief? Repentance or being filled with the Spirit?
I could throw out more salvation buzz terms..but I think you get the point. For example where does faith fit in? At what point are we washed by the blood of Christ?

Is the events of salvation linear or do some of the events happen at the same time?

 

[Cygnus]

This seems to be one order..It's called the golden chain.
Romans 8: 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[billybalke]

This theological discussion should be interesting...what is the order of events in the process of salvation when it is applied to an individual?

What happens first? Belief or repentance? Regeneration or belief? Repentance or being filled with the Spirit?
I could throw out more salvation buzz terms..but I think you get the point. For example where does faith fit in? At what point are we washed by the blood of Christ?

Is the events of salvation linear or do some of the events happen at the same time?

I believe the first step (or event) is hearing the gospel, Rom.10:14. Of course one today can simply pick up the Bible and read for himself.

 

[Gregg T]

This seems to be one order..It's called the golden chain.
Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The Calvinist phrase "golden chain" falsely implies a chronological order.

First, Rom 8:29a does not say He predestined those He foreknew to salvation.

Rom 8:29a does say He predestined those whom He knew before to be conformed to the image of His Son, meaning adopted as His children through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit:

• "led by the Spirit . . . are sons of God" (Rom 8:14)
• who "received a Spirit of adoption" (Rom 8:15)
• "heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ" (Rom 8:17)
  
• "for Him to be Firstborn among many brothers" (Rom 8:29b)

The word "Predestined" comes from two words 1.πρό meaning before, and 2. ὁρίζω meaning to mark out a boundry or limit. This word refers back to the parallel text Rom 1:4 speaking of Christ "who was marked out (ὁρίζω) the Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;" In the same way, we are marked out sons, adopted, made joint-heirs, made brothers to Christ in the power and Person of the Holy Spirit. In this way we are conformed to His image. This is what was predestined for those who believe into Christ.

And this, that Christ might be Firstborn, πρωτότοκος preeminent or first one brought forth, from the dead among many brothers who have died and are raised in Him.

Additionally, Rom 8:30 says "He also called . . . He also justified . . . He also glorified," none of which make a chronological association by the word "also." Christ is the Chosen/Elect One, the Righteous One who justifies, and to whom belongs the glory God. Once having believed into Christ we are chosen/elect ones because He is the Chosen/Elect One; we are justified because the Righteous One accounts His righteousness to us; and we are glorified having agreed with and confessed the LORD Jesus Christ, the Glory of God.

PREDESTINED regarding His Messiah
Isa 41:4 "Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'"
Isa 41:8 "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, Descendant of Abraham My friend,

CALLED
Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

JUSTIFIED:
Isa 42:4 "He will not be disheartened or crushed until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law."
Isa 42:6 "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations,

GLORIFIED
Isa 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.

 

[atpollard]

The Calvinist phrase "golden chain" falsely implies a chronological order.

You have done a thorough job of presenting a negation of the phrase "golden chain", but have not presented an alternative order of salvation (which was the actual topic).

What is your 'Ordo salutis'?

 

[billybalke]

The Calvinist phrase "golden chain" falsely implies a chronological order.

First, Rom 8:29a does not say He predestined those He foreknew to salvation.

Rom 8:29a does say He predestined those whom He knew before to be conformed to the image of His Son, meaning adopted as His children through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit:

• "led by the Spirit . . . are sons of God" (Rom 8:14)
• who "received a Spirit of adoption" (Rom 8:15)
• "heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ" (Rom 8:17)
  
• "for Him to be Firstborn among many brothers" (Rom 8:29b)

The word "Predestined" comes from two words 1.πρό meaning before, and 2. ὁρίζω meaning to mark out a boundry or limit. This word refers back to the parallel text Rom 1:4 speaking of Christ "who was marked out (ὁρίζω) the Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;" In the same way, we are marked out sons, adopted, made joint-heirs, made brothers to Christ in the power and Person of the Holy Spirit. In this way we are conformed to His image. This is what was predestined for those who believe into Christ.

And this, that Christ might be Firstborn, πρωτότοκος preeminent or first one brought forth, from the dead among many brothers who have died and are raised in Him.

Additionally, Rom 8:30 says "He also called . . . He also justified . . . He also glorified," none of which make a chronological association by the word "also." Christ is the Chosen/Elect One, the Righteous One who justifies, and to whom belongs the glory God. Once having believed into Christ we are chosen/elect ones because He is the Chosen/Elect One; we are justified because the Righteous One accounts His righteousness to us; and we are glorified having agreed with and confessed the LORD Jesus Christ, the Glory of God.

PREDESTINED regarding His Messiah
Isa 41:4 "Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'"
Isa 41:8 "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, Descendant of Abraham My friend,

CALLED
Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

JUSTIFIED:
Isa 42:4 "He will not be disheartened or crushed until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law."
Isa 42:6 "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations,

GLORIFIED
Isa 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.

Hi Gregg. I am not a Calvinist and agree with the above. However, I do think there are logical steps (or "events") as Cygnus put it, inbeing saved.

 

[ezra]

question here we are all guilty of it ..why do we complicate the plan of salvation ? scripture tells us saved by grace through faith not of works less man boast.. . the of course two key scriptures
Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

so somewhere along the line it appears as man added steps to be saved Church of Christ favors baptism apostolic baptized in Jesus name only and some you must speak in tongues calvinist more or less believe we must be justified before being saved . also feel only certain ones can be saved in another forum i was asked where do we get faith well God is the true Giver . but how does he give it and to who? many things we don,t understand i do understand whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. i am glad i am one of the whosoever amen

order of salvation

call up on him from a true heart once again we like to complicate it .. who does the saving our words or Christ

 

[Nathan]

God saves us while we are dead - lifeless - unable to do anything. This is why it's called "good news".

We either believe this, and continue in His life - or we reject it, and deny His life.

Nothing more complicated than that.

Romans 5:10 (ESV)
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

 

[Gregg T]

You have done a thorough job of presenting a negation of the phrase "golden chain", but have not presented an alternative order of salvation (which was the actual topic).

What is your 'Ordo salutis'?

Hi Gregg. I am not a Calvinist and agree with the above. However, I do think there are logical steps (or "events") as Cygnus put it, inbeing saved.

I was refuting post #2 whose author saw a chronological order in Rom 8:29-30. So now that is out of the way, and since you both gave me a frog on the opposite arm . . .

Given that the accomplished work of God in Christ provides the means for salvation, one must believe God in order to be saved by Him.

1. When someone believes, these things occur simultaneously:

• the Spirit of the Lord takes residence, sealing him
• his heart is circumcised,
• he is placed / set into Christ
• he is raised a new creature having eternal life

2a. The action of being set into Christ simultaneously accomplishes these things for the individual:

• the Atonement or Propitiation of Christ is applied
• forgiveness and remission of sins are granted
• justification is realized by God accounting His righteousness to
• reconciliation
• sanctification by Christ's blood (not the subsequent process of)
• adoption by the Father
• Christ being our peace with the Father
• a standing in grace

2b. The action of being set into Christ is the act of God saving the individual, and is spoken of in many ways:

• transfered out of the domain of darkness and into the kingdom of His son
• is delivered, saved, born from above, born again
• made alive together with Christ
• baptized into Christ
• entering through the narrow door / gate

 

[billybalke]

I was refuting post #2 whose author saw a chronological order in Rom 8:29-30. So now that is out of the way, and since you both gave me a frog on the opposite arm . . .

Given that the accomplished work of God in Christ provides the means for salvation, one must believe God in order to be saved by Him.

1. When someone believes, these things occur simultaneously:

• the Spirit of the Lord takes residence, sealing him
• his heart is circumcised,
• he is placed / set into Christ
• he is raised a new creature having eternal life

2a. The action of being set into Christ simultaneously accomplishes these things for the individual:

• the Atonement or Propitiation of Christ is applied
• forgiveness and remission of sins are granted
• justification is realized by God accounting His righteousness to
• reconciliation
• sanctification by Christ's blood (not the subsequent process of)
• adoption by the Father
• Christ being our peace with the Father
• a standing in grace

2b. The action of being set into Christ is the act of God saving the individual, and is spoken of in many ways:

• transfered out of the domain of darkness and into the kingdom of His son
• is delivered, saved, born from above, born again
• made alive together with Christ

Under point 1, three dots down. Is there a scripture addressing how one gets into Christ?

 

[Edward]

I think it goes...Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, then standing...
I think.

 

[Gregg T]

Under point 1, three dots down. Is there a scripture addressing how one gets into Christ?

Rom 6:3 Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

1Co 12:13 For also we all were baptized by one Spirit into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, even all were given to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:27 For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of Law, but that it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed into Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of Law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of Law).

Col 2:11-13 in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead. And you, being dead in the deviations and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the deviations,

Tit 3:5 He saved us . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

My understanding is that no one comes to God except by Jesus, and no one comes to Jesus unless God gives them to Jesus. So the first step in my opinion is for God to draw us to Him. Yet there is more. How can anyone believe unless they are taught? How can they be taught unless someone teaches them. God can teach us on His own. He can give us the experiences that drive us to Him. In either excitement or by desperation, or possibly experiences besides these. And He can bring us to Him by the people we are around. Those who've spread the good news, or those who by faith are an example for others to seek God. In all of these, when we find Him, seek Him, or drawn to Him by any means, it is by His doings. His Glory gets the praise.

Everything after that I see as growth, struggle, and our walk by faith. How ever it goes. Salvation is not by us, but perhaps we should consider our involvement. Consider the parable of the 4 soils. One soil the word is rejected and it's knowledge is robed from us by Satan. The other three soils believed but either fell away from being fruitful because of worries and desires weeding us out, fell away because of perscution and difficulties, schorching us dry, and no good roots to hold us spiritually strong. Or the good soil that rose above both of the other traps and was fruitful.

What good does it do to discuss whether the person who fell away is still saved or not? That's not up to us, and it ignores the other more perminant aspects. We are called to believe, and to follow Jesus. So we should encourage eachother to hold to our faith. Strengthen eachother in our hardships, and be joyful in eachother's joys. Among so many other teachings if Jesus we should follow them, act on them and with love encourage eachother in them. Regardless if our actions have merit for our salvation or not we should grow in Jesus and help one another in our lives and our faith.

Whether we are saved by our actions is a moot point because we are still called to act on our belief.

 

[Cygnus]

We either believe this, and continue in His life - or we reject it, and deny His life.

The question is....belief.....why would one believe an yet another not believe?
I think the answer s found in John 6:65........And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
This means God has to give youth ability to believe.....so, grant comes before belief.

 

[Cygnus]

What good does it do to discuss whether the person who fell away is still saved or not? .

This thread isn't about that. I'm going toast the moderators to delete any post that tries to take this tread into the OSAS/OSNAS direction.

My understanding is that no one comes to God except by Jesus, and no one comes to Jesus unless God gives them to Jesus. So the first step in my opinion is for God to draw us to Him. Yet there is more. How can anyone believe unless they are taught? How can they be taught unless someone teaches them. God can teach us on His own. He can give us the experiences that drive us to Him. In either excitement or by desperation, or possibly experiences besides these. And He can bring us to Him by the people we are around. Those who've spread the good news, or those who by faith are an example for others to seek God. In all of these, when we find Him, seek Him, or drawn to Him by any means, it is by His doings. His Glory gets the praise.

It seems as if you have some sort of series parallel path....where God "drawing" a person has several inputs where one of them is a person being taught.

 

[Cygnus]

I was refuting post #2 whose author saw a chronological order in Rom 8:29-30. So now that is out of the way, and since you both gave me a frog on the opposite arm . . .

I don't think the chronological order is out of the way. It is called the golden chain for a reason. Have you been glorified yet?

 

[Cygnus]

I think it goes...Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, then standing...
I think.

Where would you put belief? Regeneration? Given the Holy Spirit?

 

[Cygnus]

Tit 3:5 He saved us . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Gregg T, thanks for the hard work but it really doesn't address what I was looking for. You posted a whole lot on baptism which has me ask the question......Tit 3:5 He saved us . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,.......is that before or after belief?

 

[Nathan]

The question is....belief.....why would one believe an yet another not believe?
I think the answer s found in John 6:65........And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
This means God has to give youth ability to believe.....so, grant comes before belief.

Bingo. You cannot believe something is 100% true unless it already is.

God saved us by sending His Son to die for our sins. Then calls us to believe in this.

Like Abraham, righteousness is accounted to us because we believe. Like Abraham, God does the work first, and we believe second. God did not tell Abraham that if he believed then he would be a father of many nations - God told Abraham He was making him a father of many nations, and Abraham responded to that fact with belief.

Genesis 15
1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great."
2 But Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
3 And Abram said, "Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir."
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: "This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir."
5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

 

[Willie T]

The CoC believes: HBRCB. (You can look it up.)