The Fall Of Man And The Full Ramifications Of It...

[Edward]

This sparked me from another thread so I just copied my post to here and, let's toss this around a little here.

What we lost in the fall. What we gained in the fall (I say it like this because so many of you brothers and sisters insist that the 'knowledge of good and evil' is a good thing, and even post the let us reason together scriptures and so forth...

Interesting brother. When I think about the fall of man and where we stand, I prefer to think more about what we lost rather than what we gained (if that is even a correct way to say that?) What we gained (so to speak) is sickness, death, and a new (inferior) way of thinking (which is called the knowledge of good and evil, a phrase which I feel is misleading). Many people (even Christians) speak of having the knowledge of good and evil as a good thing, but I digress.

What we lost, is identity, personal relationship with God, hyper-dimensionality, and the Spirit mode of thinking (which is very probably a 'knowing'). We lost contact with our spirit man and with the spirit realm. I think that before the fall, we, as spiritual beings used to *think* with our heart, which did not require reason beyond as much as it took to make rudimentary decisions of will. We did not need the knowledge of good and evil, for we had the knowing of Love. (Think of how they teach bank tellers to spot counterfeit money. It's not by the showing and teaching of the bad money, but by the knowing of what the good money is/looks like and so forth).

Spirit beings *think* but do not reason. Think of quantum entanglement. Once two protons (Spirits) are entangled (in relationship with God?!) they can be separated and they both know what the other is doing/knows regardless of distance. If one were to desire to communicate an unknown to the other, there is not reason or talk, there is simple focused 'release' to the other. God does this to Christians all the time. We call it 'words of knowledge'

I have more to say on this, but I can feel the topic sway becoming too great for this thread so shall stop now...lol. This almost deserves a thread of it's own. there is so much left unsaid here.

 

[reba]

Once two protons (Spirits) are entangled (in relationship with God?!) they can be separated and they both know what the other is doing/knows regardless of distance.

For clarification ? This reads to me like you're saying we know what God is going to do next?

 

[Edward]

For clarification ? This read to me like you're saying we know what God is going to do next?

I knew that was coming, and was largely the basis for my statement that there is still much left unsaid here, lol. Of course there is no way to know What God is doing or thinking, unless he releases the knowledge to us. He is God, and will not be usurped. But for the sake of conversation, the similarities are very much alike, yet we speak on a kiddiegarden level here and have not approached the hard and fast rules of the spiritual realm and it's realities. Ok?

 

[Edward]

Spiritual Entanglement is very similar to quantum entanglement. Another way to say it, is being in Christ, and Christ in us. Once two protons (or Spirits) are entangled, there is a sort of invisible umbilical cord which keeps them connected regardless of distance. One knows what the other does and ones actions affect the other.

This is spiritual realm basics I believe. The more we learn, through our much heralded knowledge of good and evil, the less we are now learning that we know. The physics world has been turned upside down recently with these discoveries.

God certainly knows what we do and what we think, He can look into our heart. We are on a need to know basis with God, and what we need to know, He, 'releases' to us, as words of knowledge.

 

[reba]

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Edward]

We lost that spiritual connection to God in the fall. Now we must seek after it, and repent of our worldly ways, trust Him and receive Him. We enter as (little children) trainees, or buck privates if you will and must relearn these truths. We lost our identies in the fall. We were created in Gods image, and walked and talked with Him on a personal level daily. He loves us immensely, and the first thing He did after we fell, was to start the process of helping us to regain our identity with Him. This is why it is all about a personal relationship with Him.

Comments?

 

[Willie T]

Identity, it is SO important.

I feel so fortunate that, just this morning, our preacher began a series on Identity. He did a sermon series on it about two years ago, but he says this time, he's bumped it up a little. I wish you guys could get to listen in.... it will be online, but that is never like seeing and hearing in person.

 

[Deborah13]

Identity, it is SO important.

I feel so fortunate that, just this morning, our preacher began a series on Identity. He did a sermon series on it about two years ago, but he says this time, he's bumped it up a little. I wish you guys could get to listen in.... it will be online, but that is never like seeing and hearing in person.

Does your church have a website you can share here?

 

[Willie T]

Well, thanks for asking, but I don't want to be pushy. Plus, I'm kind of protective of my family there, and don't want to see my friend subjected to some of the accusations I've seen levied at other preachers who don't properly fit into someone's esoterically "religious" box. (Present company, excepted, of course... but I still don't like just throwing it out there for the Matthew 7:6 crowd.)

I'll SAC you the site address if you care to check it out.

 

[Edward]

Identity, it is SO important.

I feel so fortunate that, just this morning, our preacher began a series on Identity. He did a sermon series on it about two years ago, but he says this time, he's bumped it up a little. I wish you guys could get to listen in.... it will be online, but that is never like seeing and hearing in person.

Really. I'd love to listen to it. SAC the link to me...please?

 

[eddif]

The Lounge. Is that kinda like sittin on the porch and talking.

What is man like before the fall?
What are his potentials?
What are his experiences before the fall?
Has he received Holy Spirit or has Spirit breathed conscious life and physical breath into him.
Is there a part of his physical body that hints at what this tree of good and evil may be (?), and this is the loaded question).
Did man have the inner voice telling him no.

The disciples (now that is a leap in time) did not seem to get all they needed from hanging around with Jesus, but had to wait on power from on high. Did pre-fall man get all he needed from his created body, breath of the Spirit,and talks with God?

I am a record stuck in several grooves at times. I really do think our created body has hints to all this conversation, but I can just remain silent.

eddif

 

[Edward]

The Lounge. Is that kinda like sittin on the porch and talking.

What is man like before the fall?
What are his potentials?
What are his experiences before the fall?
Has he received Holy Spirit or has Spirit breathed conscious life and physical breath into him.
Is there a part of his physical body that hints at what this tree of good and evil may be (?), and this is the loaded question).
Did man have the inner voice telling him no.

The disciples (now that is a leap in time) did not seem to get all they needed from hanging around with Jesus, but had to wait on power from on high. Did pre-fall man get all he needed from his created body, breath of the Spirit,and talks with God?

I am a record stuck in several grooves at times. I really do think our created body has hints to all this conversation, but I can just remain silent.

eddif

Here we go. You ask good questions brother! Many of which I (we) can not answer, because we have so little knowledge of the spiritual realm, and the realities of the mechanics of it. I have conjectures about it, but nothing that could be carved into stone. For the sake of discussion, I will take a stab at it.

What is man like before the fall? (I think he was hyper-dimensional, and his 'spirit man' was more visible than his flesh.)

What are his potentials? (Undoubtedly more than we have now! He obviously did not *think* with his brain, but with his heart (?) and could easily see the other dimensions and beings. His *work* in the garden, was presumably effortless being a spiritual being.)

What are his experiences before the fall? (Not many, I would think. But the ones that he did have are probably known to some extent, but are suppressed and hidden from the world like much of the old knowledge and truths.)

Has he received Holy Spirit or has Spirit breathed conscious life and physical breath into him. (hmmm. Good one. Probably unanswerable. He was conscious but operated more like a spiritual being than a flesh man. Holy Spirit? I dunno, he walked with God daily in the garden, so there's that. His identity was intact, and his relationship was very close to God, so probably yes...? However, lacking knowledge of the spirit realm leaves that very much up in the air.)

Is there a part of his physical body that hints at what this tree of good and evil may be (?), and this is the loaded question). (I think probably not. He was more Spirit than flesh in practical terms, and was also not all knowing and was perhaps limited to the knowledge of the command to not eat or touch it.)

Did man have the inner voice telling him no. (Yes. Well, no (he had no knowledge of good and evil)...I dunno!! He was told not to, but did he know why, beyond, "Thou shalt surely die"...?)

Did pre-fall man get all he needed from his created body, breath of the Spirit,and talks with God? (Sure, why wouldn't he? BUT! What we have is a young man, devoid of much experience with perhaps a little bit of...spoiled brat syndrome, shall we say? Wanting more, what he can't have and so forth?)

 

[Eugene]

I've repeated this in other posts, but to me the knowledge of good and evil came as the result of becoming aware of God’s law; it killed. Eph 2:5. We read of the law’s ministry in 2 Cor 3:7 as the ministration of death written and engraven in stones.

Now Adam prior to this was innocent, but I don’t think I’ve read where he was righteous; all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and God knew of it before they did. Many do not like the thought of different ages, or tests of man throughout the bible such as the ages of innocence, conscience, human government, promise, law, grace, and kingdom. I do.

Israel didn’t know God’s righteousness because of sin. 1 Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, and we’re told in Gal 3:19, Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions.

Just as it was then, there was the tree of life (Jesus) available to them (Gen 2:9), but they didn’t choose Him. Did God know that is what they would do, and later receive the covering God would supply? Of course He did because their names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8.

Was there a reason for this supposed fall? To me there was, and it was in the fact that God had a plan for you and me to be included in the body of Christ; we’re in that same book of life.

 

[eddif]

Colossians 2:16-17 and previous and following text.
Creation is but a shadow of things to come, but the body (solid reality -- spiritual / physical reality) is Christ.

If Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 then aspects of his suffering should be seen in pre- fall man's created body. Just like sabbaths and holy days are shadows IMHO stemming from the day of Christs death; in other words Jesus completed his work, and we enter into a sabbath rest based on his work now (at the time of creation sabbaths were created).

Man was created a little lower than God. I do not see the spiritual gifts generally used in the OT, except by prophets and called people. Adam and Eve seem to operate without spiritual discernment and rely on instruction (which they do not follow). Even after Pentecost there are still problems, but the sons and daughters prophesy. Intelligent yes. Spiritual gifts I would seem to doubt. Man's body is a symbol of the tabernacle God dwells.in, and not IMHO the new birth mind. Romans 7:25

Enough for now. Edward went into most of the questions I thought would take forever to get to.

I am really strange in one sense. Because Adam (man) ate of the tree of good and evil we have to discuss good and evil. If man had just eaten of the tree of life, we might just be discussing good. Thanks to the last trump, one day we will be changed in the flesh.

eddif

 

[Edward]

I've repeated this in other posts, but to me the knowledge of good and evil came as the result of becoming aware of God’s law; it killed. Eph 2:5. We read of the law’s ministry in 2 Cor 3:7 as the ministration of death written and engraven in stones.

Now Adam prior to this was innocent, but I don’t think I’ve read where he was righteous; all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and God knew of it before they did. Many do not like the thought of different ages, or tests of man throughout the bible such as the ages of innocence, conscience, human government, promise, law, grace, and kingdom. I do.

Israel didn’t know God’s righteousness because of sin. 1 Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, and we’re told in Gal 3:19, Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions.

Just as it was then, there was the tree of life (Jesus) available to them (Gen 2:9), but they didn’t choose Him. Did God know that is what they would do, and later receive the covering God would supply? Of course He did because their names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8.

Was there a reason for this supposed fall? To me there was, and it was in the fact that God had a plan for you and me to be included in the body of Christ; we’re in that same book of life.

"the knowledge of good and evil came as the result of becoming aware of God’s law;..."

Which Adam did not have. But he had something else...Personal instruction and relationship. Which he disobeyed. It was bound to happen. Like a little child, they will get into mischief. Adam's posterity did not have relationship or instruction, so the law had to be added so that they would know their errors. What's the first thing God did when He found them hiding in the Garden and it came known that they transgressed his only no-no for them? He made a covering for them both, and blood was shed for this covering...a shadow of things to come. But God was not angry at them. He simply made a move to get them back into relationship!

 

[eddif]

"the knowledge of good and evil came as the result of becoming aware of God’s law;..."

Which Adam did not have. But he had something else...Personal instruction and relationship. Which he disobeyed. It was bound to happen. Like a little child, they will get into mischief. Adam's posterity did not have relationship or instruction, so the law had to be added so that they would know their errors. What's the first thing God did when He found them hiding in the Garden and it came known that they transgressed his only no-no for them? He made a covering for them both, and blood was shed for this covering...a shadow of things to come. But God was not angry at them. He simply made a move to get them back into relationship!

Edward interacting with you is helping me already. I do believe I have room to refine my thoughts. I get so far out that I am happy when others get a glimmer of what I talk about. I believe imagery is solid doctrine, but that does not say it is not work, and requires others input.

Using your comments, Eugene's and mine. Adam knew the experience of only God's ways as long as he followed directions. When he followed the serpents ideas he experienced evil in an action kind of way. Man had sinned, but the knowledge would await the Law (he did not drop dead on the spot but length of life began decreasing 120 years, 70 years). Sin existed from Adam to Moses, but the knowledge did begin with the Law. The covering of hides spoke of Jesus shedding of blood in the future (shadow cast back from the cross).

IMHO the inward knowledge of good and evil began at Pentecost. IMHO hearts and minds are changed at Pentecost.

Revelation 3:20 moves God into us instead of outside or with us.

Ok we have 24 cranial nerves (12 pair). 12 gates to the New Jerusalem (only good gates). We close our mental gates to evil with the new birth. The flesh may sin but inside our new mind is the true spirit dwelling place. Romans 7:25. (Do not panic over 7:25).

eddif

 

[Edward]

Thank you brother, praise God that I could be a vessel through which He helps people.

The renewing of the mind is done by the Lord, but requires our effort or it will not happen. I think a lot of people think it happens automatically after they say the sinners prayer, and when they wake up the next day the same person, are disappointed. There is a transformation which takes place over time, through prayer, searching the scriptures daily, and meditating on His word day and night.

That's how we get the mind of Christ! The bible is His Word. His Words...His very thoughts. You stay in it enough and you start thinking like Him!!! Transformed, renewed.

Romans 12:2
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God./

Bam, there it is. We can do it. All we have to do is to and to .

Now Adam didn't have a bible. He had something better before the fall. He had personal relationship.

If the Word is so powerful for us, just imagine what we really lost in the fall.
Wow.

 

[Eugene]

Adam knew the experience of only God's ways as long as he followed directions. When he followed the serpents ideas he experienced evil in an action kind of way. Man had sinned, but the knowledge would await the Law (he did not drop dead on the spot but length of life began decreasing 120 years, 70 years).

I've got to wonder about the time man had to wait for the law. It's true God didn't have it written as far as I know, but Abel knew the offering to give according to Gen 4:4. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering. It was probably the same offering; that type of Christ practiced by Israel until Jesus died on the cross.

 

[Edward]

I've got to wonder about the time man had to wait for the law. It's true God didn't have it written as far as I know, but Abel knew the offering to give according to Gen 4:4. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering. It was probably the same offering; that type of Christ practiced by Israel until Jesus died on the cross.

I've wondered the same thing before. But all was not recorded so we have to presume that proper instruction was given to them with respect to offerings and so forth.

I agree...

 

[eddif]

There are several Hebrew and Greek words and explations for knowing. Spiritual knowing is probably top of list.
Psalms 103:7 (acts ways)

Maybe someone reading will help.

Knowing on one level is not knowing on every level. Knowing the Law written in stone is not knowing the Law written in hearts of flesh (God writing in hearts and minds).

eddif