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n2thelight
Member
The elect don't have free will,that's the difference...They were chosen before the foundation of this world(age)The question you must ask is why were they chosen....
Why did Christ interfere in Pauls life?
Lets keep going in Epeshians
Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"
What does it mean to be "chosen"?
It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.
"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.
"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.
Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.
"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.
Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.
We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15
Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"
"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.
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Chosen for purpose.
Because Paul was bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus.
Key words: "in Him"
He chose, through His foreknowledge, those who chose Christ, seeing who would chose His Son, He chose them to be conformed to the Image of His Son.
No where in the process did anyone loose or forfeit their free will.
JLB
Yes, Purpose.
Yes from the context of the previous verse.
Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"
They way a person comes to be "in Him", is choose to believe... of their own free will.
The way a person continues to remain or abide "in Him" is to continue to believe... of their own free will.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
JLB
Chopper
Member
A very good post here. I agree with what you are saying. There are those who have problems with how this all works because they apply what John Calvin believed was a limited atonement which was ONLY for the Elect, before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1)
The Elect, indeed don't exercise their free will....The others, of which I claim, come to Christ thru the "General Call of the Gospel" can exercise free will to receive Christ Jesus.
Thank you, I "like" your post.
The Elect, indeed don't exercise their free will....The others, of which I claim, come to Christ thru the "General Call of the Gospel" can exercise free will to receive Christ Jesus.
Thank you, I "like" your post.
smaller
Member
The initial difficulties of every Word student is the same. For example, we are so filled with christian fairy tales, that we initially understand, quite falsely, that the term angel for example automatically equates to Holy Angels. And in our minds we have pictures of angels with wings that the false system of understandings have pumped into our minds from our youth.
But the reality of the term angel really means only "messenger." There are several different forms of "messengers." There are Holy messengers of the Spiritual variety. There are also wicked/evil messengers of the ill sort. There are also "men" who are messengers. All of these are in fact 'angels.'
It is the same initial false pictures we start with on the term "men" or "man." This term also is applied to various entities in the scriptures. Even with the term "woman" or "women" it can apply in a multitude of fashions in the scriptures.
These are not "easy" subjects. If any picture an angel as only a Holy sort, they are not seeing correctly, but are seeing a false picture. And the same applies for the terms man and woman.
So, who is the MAN OF SIN?
If we understand, I'll pick one scripture to show the "man" of sin:
Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
When we read the term "ye" that is plural for TWO parties. Ye. Not just you, YE. Two.
Who is the other party? Is "a prince" a man? Of course. Just as a princess is a woman, a prince is "a man."
Even Lucifer is termed "a man" in the scriptures.
If you are reading the term "man" in the Bible, it does not automatically mean some flesh guy. No more than the term Angel automatically means "a Holy Spiritual Messenger."
The terms "angel" and "man" are far more interesting in the Word than the fairy tales we have in our heads.
We know for example that the "son of perdition" is referred to in the Gospels. Nearly everyone starts out falsely thinking that this term is applied to Judas. This is NOT the case. Let's look closer at Judas and maybe we'll see more than just Judas in the scriptural equations:
Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
IF we are seeing falsely, we are just seeing Judas. That is NOT how scripture is seeing Judas. Scriptures sees TWO parties, Judas and Satan. Scripture sees Judas identically to how scripture sees US in our pre-believing state referred to above in Ephesians 2:2.
Now, let's examine the "son of perdition." It is first referenced here:
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
IF anyone thinks this is JUDAS they are not seeing correctly. They are only seeing Judas. Scripture does not see only Judas. Scripture sees Judas just as scripture sees us in Eph. 2:2.
So, if it was Judas, Judas was long dead by the time Paul references the "son of perdition" here:
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Remember, Lucifer is called a man. Remember, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience, was upon ALL of us prior to belief.
Now do you see the MAN OF SIN?
Maybe so. BUT the son of perdition, the man of sin, will resist this Word disclosure. And will place in the mind, the worldly and the false fairy tales, instead.
But the reality of the term angel really means only "messenger." There are several different forms of "messengers." There are Holy messengers of the Spiritual variety. There are also wicked/evil messengers of the ill sort. There are also "men" who are messengers. All of these are in fact 'angels.'
It is the same initial false pictures we start with on the term "men" or "man." This term also is applied to various entities in the scriptures. Even with the term "woman" or "women" it can apply in a multitude of fashions in the scriptures.
These are not "easy" subjects. If any picture an angel as only a Holy sort, they are not seeing correctly, but are seeing a false picture. And the same applies for the terms man and woman.
So, who is the MAN OF SIN?
If we understand, I'll pick one scripture to show the "man" of sin:
Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
When we read the term "ye" that is plural for TWO parties. Ye. Not just you, YE. Two.
Who is the other party? Is "a prince" a man? Of course. Just as a princess is a woman, a prince is "a man."
Even Lucifer is termed "a man" in the scriptures.
If you are reading the term "man" in the Bible, it does not automatically mean some flesh guy. No more than the term Angel automatically means "a Holy Spiritual Messenger."
The terms "angel" and "man" are far more interesting in the Word than the fairy tales we have in our heads.
We know for example that the "son of perdition" is referred to in the Gospels. Nearly everyone starts out falsely thinking that this term is applied to Judas. This is NOT the case. Let's look closer at Judas and maybe we'll see more than just Judas in the scriptural equations:
Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
IF we are seeing falsely, we are just seeing Judas. That is NOT how scripture is seeing Judas. Scriptures sees TWO parties, Judas and Satan. Scripture sees Judas identically to how scripture sees US in our pre-believing state referred to above in Ephesians 2:2.
Now, let's examine the "son of perdition." It is first referenced here:
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
IF anyone thinks this is JUDAS they are not seeing correctly. They are only seeing Judas. Scripture does not see only Judas. Scripture sees Judas just as scripture sees us in Eph. 2:2.
So, if it was Judas, Judas was long dead by the time Paul references the "son of perdition" here:
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Remember, Lucifer is called a man. Remember, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience, was upon ALL of us prior to belief.
Now do you see the MAN OF SIN?
Maybe so. BUT the son of perdition, the man of sin, will resist this Word disclosure. And will place in the mind, the worldly and the false fairy tales, instead.
The man, the false messiah, who goes to the temple of God in Jerusalem and proclaims himself as God.
This man of sin will be revealed.
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
That's where the Jews believe the Messiah will come... to the Temple.
They believe if the build the new temple, the messiah will come.
This man of sin, the false messiah will do false signs and wonders, according to the working of Satan.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
This is how he will be revealed, and made known and manifest.
JLB
smaller
Member
Yeah, well, that's a pretty thin story imho.
What blinded unbelievers do really doesn't interest me nor do I think that plays much of, if any of a role in eschatology. There are bigger fish to fry in the narratives. The stories that some people have bought are not credible, SUCH AS some man as the anti-Christ sitting in a physical temple, built by unbelievers, that supposedly belongs to Jesus. That whole story is just that. A concoction that doesn't and can't hold scriptural water.
Jesus wasn't meant to sit in the destroyed temple of Jerusalem, as Ruler, prior or He would have.
There is even less reason to see that to be the case in any future rebuilt temple of bricks and mortar.
In fact I'd be sorely disappointed if that was actually the way it turned out. As if we have any shortages of people who want to sit in temples, as leaders already. That whole story is, imho, absolute nonsense. But you are welcome to think it so.
n2thelight
Member
Because Paul was bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus
JLB
When did Paul come to Christ?Was it not on the road to damascus Acts 9? What was he doing to Christians before then?
The point of my question is a question.Why did Christ interfere with Pauls life?
Acts 9:1 "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,"
JLB
When did Paul come to Christ?Was it not on the road to damascus Acts 9? What was he doing to Christians before then?
The point of my question is a question.Why did Christ interfere with Pauls life?
Acts 9:1 "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,"
Sinthesis
Member
n2thelight
Member
We were with God before being born of woman thats what Im saying....We were here on this earth in our spiritual bodies ,before the rebellion of lucifer....
Because of the fall we had to be born of woman in flesh,had satan not rebelled we would not have been made flesh..
smaller
Member
Your beliefs above and here ["before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God,] one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan"] are, let's say, a bit unusual and scripturally problematic because there is no such presentation in scriptures of the bolded parts.
It brings up many questions, such as:
Are people devils?
Were people turned into devils?
Did Gods children become devils and some are converted back to being Gods children?
Is Satan Gods son and the brother of Jesus?
I might give some credence to the possibility of the preexistence of the spirit of man, seeing how it is given to us by God and therefore had to exist with(in) God prior in order to give same. (Eccl. 12:7, Num. 16:22, Neh. 9:20, Prov. 20:27, Zech. 12:1 and others.) But some of these types of [potential positions, I'm open to discussions] can get a bit exaggerated, such as the bolded parts above in those claims and the questions such postures bring, which I don't think scriptures can support.
There is a much more likely and very scriptural conclusion that does not entail any of the bolded parts above in your claims or any of the questions above being answered in the affirmative and it is this: That devils and mankind are NOT the same entity class. This is supported by scripture and affirmed by just about any orthodox sights. These "separate and distinct" [not the same] entity classes are BOTH bound into the flesh. And The Word "divides" these two distinct entity classes. It's a much more simple division and understanding.
A couple of short examples of hundreds of such examples in the scriptures, showing these two "separate" entity classes occupying the same flesh:
Luke 4:33
And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
Luke 8:29
(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
Luke 11:24
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
This fact, of the flesh being subject to wicked lying deceiptful spirit(s) that are NOT man, is a fact of scriptures. Sadly, often overlooked by the majority of theological understandings. It is however confirmed in so many scriptures it should be very near the top of any christian theological constructs. Even Paul affirms that this was the case for his own flesh in 2 Cor. 12:7, showing that a messenger of Satan was in his own flesh.
And this of course insults the majority of believers who might have to engage this fact about their own flesh. But then again, who exactly is "insulted?"
The only reason I question it is that I've encountered a LOT of believers over the years who try to make people devils and I generally detest such constructs as completely unsupportable by scriptures, and consider the posture in all it's various forms and deceptions a typical cultist component. A fringe element understanding. An influenced by the other parties understanding.
The short version of scripture on these subjects: Mankind are not devils. Jesus was not sent to save devils. Satan is not Jesus' brother. Nor are devils Gods children.
As these things may particularly apply, the falling away spoken of by Paul is "more than likely" an end time understanding of the "falling away" of the devil and his messengers FROM their influences in the flesh of believers. Believers will be saved in that final transformation. Satan and his messengers will not be saved.
The parties will in fact be finally "divided" from each others. And this is the general understanding of the Sword and the meaning of the Division, quite simple, that the Word brings, spoken of by Jesus and the Apostles in many instances.
We know for example from Rev. that the works of Satan are addressed to all the churches members in Rev. 2-3, and therefore is also spoken to every believer today as well. We also know that all have sinned, have sin, and that sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8. When John speaks about the anti-Christ spirit he directs us to "look to yourselves." 2 John 1:7-8. Every Word of God, applicable to us, confirmed for example by Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4, and repeated Rev. 2-3 statements of Jesus to the church members to LISTEN to what the Spirit is saying to the churchES.
What the Spirit sez is we have issues with wicked spiritual entities that are not us, in our own flesh.
It's an unpleasant matter to consider, that in our flesh is not just us, but also an intrusive, abusive, deceptive, sinning, LYING entity influence that is not us, but it IS scriptural understanding.
Another one of your many post's that contain no scripture?
Jesus meant to sit in a destroyed Temple?
Where do you come up with such nonsense?
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
These who desire to build the new temple, do so for the very reason of wanting the messiah to come... which he will.
These have rejected Jesus as Messiah... in which they believe the lie. The lie is Jesus is not the Messiah.
Therefore they want a temple to sacrifice animals as the law of Moses describes, having rejected Jesus as Messiah.
God Himself will send them strong delusion.
The person of the strong delusion is the false messiah.
The place of the strong delusion is the temple in Jerusalem.
The false messiah, the man of sin, the lawless one... is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.
This is not something new.
“If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 13:1-3
This lawless one, the false messiah will be personally destroyed by the Lord Himself.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
This lawless one will be revealed... by going to the temple, and proclaiming himself as God, Messiah, he will deceive with lying signs and wonders those who are perishing because they did not receive the love of the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The man of sin, is the false messiah, known as the antichrist.
The temple is in Jerusalem.
Here is a link to the Temple Institute: https://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm
THE SCHOLARS OF THE TEMPLE INSTITUTE have dedicated their lives to raising public awareness of the importance of the Holy Temple in the life of all mankind, both Israel and the nations of the world. The Institute seeks to disseminate this knowledge, rekindle the desire and yearning for the rebuilding of the Holy Temple, and help to prepare as much as possible for the actual rebuilding. At this site you can view educational articles and essays about the Holy Temple, as well as an archive of newsletters and news items. You can also subscribe to the Temple Institute's free email newsletters. Also available are many online video teachings.
JLB
For His purpose.
The purpose of Paul's life and ministry was to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles.
12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:12-18
JLB
smaller
Member
Spare me.
IF the story line that some believers buy is that fallen blinded non-Christian Jewish unbelievers are going to build a temple of bricks and mortar where Jesus is somehow supposed to 'sit in' in Jerusalem but is instead sat in by the anti-Christ man, I just can't buy any of that story. It doesn't exist in the scriptures. It is a fantasy fiction in all it's various concoctions that is sold by end time writers seeking money from the gullible masses.
To sit in some brick and mortar job built by unbelievers? And to defeat some petty piece of flesh man? lol
That is just a fantasy my friend. It has zero basis in scripture.
This IS the temple that will be on earth, right here:
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Does that sound like a brick and mortar job built by unbelievers to you? It sure doesn't to me.
And some piece of petty flesh man as the anti-Christ? God can sweep away any piece of flesh MAN He Pleases in about a nano-second. That whole story that some believers buy is just utter nonsense IMHO. But you are certainly welcome to that storyline. I just don't see it myself, in the scriptures.
Here is the TEMPLE OF GOD:
Revelation 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
You still seeing a brick and mortar job temple in Jerusalem? Look again. "I SAW NO TEMPLE."
"the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple"
IF we observe this construct, this "Heavenly City" from Rev. 21 it is certainly not a brick and mortar job built by unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem, whatsoever.
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Sinthesis
Member
I have no memory of that supposed era at all, which is strange considering you believe I was there.
n2thelight
Member
For the purpose... of showing Himself as mighty.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh,“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. Romans 9:14-18
Pharaoh had already hardened his heart.
Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He did mighty things among them, did they not let the people go, that they might depart? 1 Samuel 6:6
This Pharaoh had hardened his heart against the people of God, and his hand was against them to destroy them. Likewise his successor also, however those of the midwives were blessed because they feared God.
15 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.” 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. 18 So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?”19 And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.”
20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty. 21 And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them. Exodus 1:15-21
JLB
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n2thelight
Member
Sinthesis
Member
Paul and Pharoah both had a choice. Pharoah made the foolish choice, as God knew he would. Paul made the wise choice, as God knew he would.